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slh3016
Guest
Carmen, I believe that you erroneously think that Catholics and the Catholic Church believe it has the monopoly on the Holy Spirit. It does not. The Catholic Church teaches that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, preserving the Apostolic teachings of Christ and the apostles through its Sacred Tradition, and that the sacraments administered (eucharist, baptism, etc.) convey the grace of God to their recipients. In other words, God actually does work through those sacraments in conveying grace. This is the NORMAL means of receiving those graces, but the Church also teaches that God is not bound by those sacraments. In other words, Catholics do not believe that God is put in a box by the sacraments. He can work any way He sees fit in the lives of people on earth and works in Protestant churches
It is apparent from your testimony that the Holy Spirit has been working in your life. Praise God!However, I do hope that you have followed up with your conversion experience with water baptism, as commanded in the Scriptures. The Catholic Church recognizes all Trinitarian baptisms as valid and would certainly welcome you with open arms should you decide to seeker a deeper faith and relationship with Jesus. I can think of no more personal of a relationship with Christ than receiving Him in the Eucharist.
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Ignatius
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Actually, Jesus founded His Church and His Church was bringing people to Christ and Salvation long before a single word of the New Testament was written. The Church came first and it was from The Church, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, that the New Testament came.
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fasolislithuan
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You can read online Athanasius’ “Historia Arianorum”
newadvent.org/fathers/2815.htm
where Athanasius relates the persecution of the catholic trinitarian bishops by Constantine. Constantine is responsible of the persecution until 337 (date of his death). PART I. ARIAN PERSECUTION UNDER CONSTANTINE. During this period he banished and exiled some of the best apologetics of the orthodoxy in the Nicaean Council as Eustathius of Antioch (date of exile 330), Athanasius of Alexandria (335) and Marcellus of Ancyra (336). Always by false charges in arian synods. The main instigator is always Eusebius of Nicodemia, familiar and mentor of Constantine and the bishop that later baptized Constantine in the arian faith (337), few days before his death.
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carmenp1
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No. I don’t think that. What have I said to give you that impression?Carmen, I believe that you erroneously think that Catholics and the Catholic Church believe it has the monopoly on the Holy Spirit. It does not. The Catholic Church teaches that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, preserving the Apostolic teachings of Christ and the apostles through its Sacred Tradition, and that the sacraments administered (eucharist, baptism, etc.) convey the grace of God to their recipients. In other words, God actually does work through those sacraments in conveying grace. This is the NORMAL means of receiving those graces, but the Church also teaches that God is not bound by those sacraments. In other words, Catholics do not believe that God is put in a box by the sacraments. He can work any way He sees fit in the lives of people on earth and works in Protestant churches
However, I do hope that you have followed up with your conversion experience with water baptism, as commanded in the Scriptures. The Catholic Church recognizes all Trinitarian baptisms as valid and would certainly welcome you with open arms should you decide to seeker a deeper faith and relationship with Jesus. I can think of no more personal of a relationship with Christ than receiving Him in the Eucharist.
It is an unmerited blessing to have gone thru so many difficulties and see God turn everything for my good.
I think the way I have developed and maintained my relationship with God, is how God wants me to continue.
I was baptized in a river in Launceston a few months after I got saved. Full immersion as Jesus Himself was baptized. I knew that God tells us in scripture we need to be baptized. I obeyed God in this understanding what I was doing and why.
God bless.
Carmen
Carmen
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slh3016
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Well, I, for one, am certainly grateful that the Holy Spirit has been active in your life
I am sorry if I was mistaken. It just seemed early on that you had a bone to pick with the Catholic Church and through your posts, it seemed to me that you were trying very hard to prove that you had had an authentic encounter with the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, in spite of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation and the necessity of baptism. I was simply trying to show you that Catholics don’t discredit the Holy Spirit’s work in the lives of non-Catholics such as yourself. Simply put, God can do what He wants, when He wants, and where He wants. This includes inside the Catholic Church and outside of it because Baptists/Protestants don’t have the monopoly on the Holy Spirit, either
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Ignatius
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Original Post or Original Poster.
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carmenp1
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It’s OK. No offence taken. I agree no one denomination has a monopoly on God or the Holy Spirit. It is so good to see the faith of some people on this forum.Well, I, for one, am certainly grateful that the Holy Spirit has been active in your life
I am sorry if I was mistaken. It just seemed early on that you had a bone to pick with the Catholic Church and through your posts, it seemed to me that you were trying very hard to prove that you had had an authentic encounter with the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, in spite of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation and the necessity of baptism. I was simply trying to show you that Catholics don’t discredit the Holy Spirit’s work in the lives of non-Catholics such as yourself. Simply put, God can do what He wants, when He wants, and where He wants. This includes inside the Catholic Church and outside of it because Baptists/Protestants don’t have the monopoly on the Holy Spirit, either
I might be able to encourage people by sharing my testimony. Sometimes it helps to clarify things in a response.
As a new convert I started reading about Moody, and Wigglesworth. But the first book I read was “Pilgrim’s Progress”. As I followed Christian’s journey, his walk, it helped me understand what I was experiencing. The pitfalls he faced, I could see in my walk.
When I was reading a book on Smith Wigglesworth, I was so encouraged by this " Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, “Oh, it’s only you.” Then he turned over and went back to sleep. Wow! How’s that for faith.
With my history, this helped me a lot. Why should I be scared of an enemy that has been defeated. I have been helped and encouraged in so many ways.
Carmen
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Randy_Carson
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From post #75:
Original Post (the First Post in the thread) or
Original Poster (the person who started the thread)
Context determines which is correct.
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Randy_Carson
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You might be interested in reading about Padre Pio or the Cure of Ars.It’s OK. No offence taken. I agree no one denomination has a monopoly on God or the Holy Spirit. It is so good to see the faith of some people on this forum.
I might be able to encourage people by sharing my testimony. Sometimes it helps to clarify things in a response.
As a new convert I started reading about Moody, and Wigglesworth. But the first book I read was “Pilgrim’s Progress”. As I followed Christian’s journey, his walk, it helped me understand what I was experiencing. The pitfalls he faced, I could see in my walk.
When I was reading a book on Smith Wigglesworth, I was so encouraged by this " Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, “Oh, it’s only you.” Then he turned over and went back to sleep. Wow! How’s that for faith.
With my history, this helped me a lot. Why should I be scared of an enemy that has been defeated. I have been helped and encouraged in so many ways.
Carmen
They had many such encounters.
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oneofmany
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I don’t respond to these people except to ask why they believe that, where did they learn it? They usually don’t reply but if they do I go to the web site they post and see it is a hate site when I read the home page. I tell them about that and they don’t reply. It’s usually just some nonsense they have read on the internet.
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carmenp1
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Will google them.
Thanks
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carmenp1
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What about John 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.”
The apostles, especially Paul, preached the gospel. They lived Acts, people were witness to what God did through them. It was preached as all they had was the Old covenant, the old testament. They were sent out by Christ to bring the good news of salvation by His blood, and the new covenant made in His blood to every nation.
Those who believed were the body of Christ. The Church is made up of people who have been saved by grace. There are those who have been called to serve as ministers of the Word of God to feed the body of Christ, to evangelize, to teach etc. But no one person in the body of Christ should exalt themselves above another believer. We are all saved by grace and have done nothing by which we can say it was by anything we did.
Jesus taught us how those in ministry should conduct themselves in the church. Serve without supremesy over those he serves. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. He humbled Himself and made Himself of no repute.
Jesus is the Word and He spoke His Word to His disciples and sent them out into the world.
If you say the church is the foundation, what does the Church base it’s doctrine on? Is it on the teachings Jesus spoke to His disciples or some other truth?
I can’t understand how the Church comes before the Word. Jesus being the Word.
Carmen:shrug:
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Randy_Carson
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Carmen-
There are two usages of the word, “Word”, that are occasionally confused.
Jesus is called the Word as you rightly point out. The Bible is also called the Word. Agreed?
So, Jesus, the Word mentioned by John, preached and taught. The Church also preached and taught based upon what it had learned from Jesus. The Church wrote down some of what it was preaching and teaching and had learned from experience in the NT.
Thus, as Paul says, the Church is the “pillar and foundation” of the Truth in that the Church holds up the Truth to the world and says, “See? This is Jesus. He is the Truth.”
The Church also supports the Truth in that the Church wrote the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the monks of the Church laboriously copied the Bible by hand for centuries before the invention of the printing press, and the Church has preached from those same scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
So, Jesus, the Word of God, came before the Church, but the Church existed long before the written word, the Bible, ever existed.
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carmenp1
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I guess we can agree if the church has founded it’s pillars upon the belief that we are saved by believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That He rose again and ask God to forgive us of our sins. Asking Jesus to come into our lives and help us live fir Him. That His blood brings us into a new covenant with God. The circumcision of our heart. Circumcision was the old covenant has been done away with. God knew we could not keep the law. But now Jesus had offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice that the blood of bulls could never pay. We are sanctified by His blood. Not by water. If by water, then why did Jesus die for us?
I am covered by the blood of Jesus. When God looks at me, He sees the blood of His Son. I am clothed in His righteousness.
His blood fulfills the Law and there is nothing more that we can do to pay for our sins. I am saved by faith alone, not by my works, nor any penance, or good works. If I could be saved by my deeds or penance then Jesus’ death and resurrection are not enough to pay for my sins.
Baptism by water was not what saved the man crusified next to Jesus. The man believed that He was the Son of God and admitted he was a sinner, he said to Jesus that He was innocent but he wad deserving of death. Jesus said this day you will be in paradise with Me.
He was forgiven. He wasn’t water baptised. Luke 23:44-45 for exact words.
I read Padre pio. I had no idea that people believe water baptism sanctifies.
What about the blood of Christ. At passover they sprinkled blood on the door posts. The angel passed these and those inside were saved from death.
Carmen
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SjMelnychuk
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With reference to the man next to Jesus on His cross… There is also what’s called Baptism of the heart but for greater clarity on what the Catholic Church teaches on Baptism… click on the below link: The link below also provides a response to … “What about the blood of Christ”
catholic.com/magazine/articles/baptism-saves-you
But to quickly quote …
1 Peter 3:18-22Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
18 For Christ also died[a] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
1 Peter 3:21 - saved through baptism
I hope you click on the link above and perhaps respond to what you read regarding what the Catholic Church teaches with Baptism. What about the blood? Well, in Baptism you are baptized into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That should answer your question.
1 Tim 3:16 - I believe it says The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
The Church! The Body of Christ! = Jesus
Sometimes as a Protestant it’s easy to see things individualistically. I mean, often times the Protestant will neglect the fact that when they sin they sin against not only God but the Church, the Body of Christ and so there is within the context of redemption very much so community involved and it becomes less about the individual and more about the Body of Christ, the Church as a whole.
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Dorothy
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Yes…the Catholic Church teaches that there is Baptism of water, Baptism of desire, and Baptism of blood.
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Jon_S_1
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It’s not us saying the Church is the foundation. The Bible says that.
1 Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Matt 18
15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
This shows clearly the church is given the authority over the individual. Otherwise going to them for resolution is meaningless.
The church doesn’t come before Jesus. The church is the agency of Jesus. It protects and proclaims his message. It keeps it from being twisted into error as even you would probably admit happens in many many churches .
So to know who is keeping the true tradition and teachings of Christ you go to the beginning. You read the early church fathers and find a church that has a historical lineage to them and is still teaching the same as them. Your choices will basically be Catholic or Orthodox. The only two churches that go back to Christ and practice christianity as the early church did.
If you want to follow a tradition that started 1600 years after Christ you really should ask why. And why is following John Smyth’s baptist faith any different than following Joseph Smith’s Mormon faith as example. What gave either of them the authority to start their new reinventions of Christianity.
Hope this helps,
Jon (recovering baptist
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Mousey
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What does Peter say?
Act 2 37-38
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Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent** and be baptized**, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
1 Peter 3:21 21
This prefigured baptism**, which saves you now.** It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Then what do you do with Jesus own words. It is Jesus own words to be baptized. Peter and understood that or do you believe that Peter was in error when he said that baptism now saves you?
There is no scripture that states that you are saved by faith alone. Jesus words were that
Matthew 7:
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"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
What do you do with Matthew 25 with the parable of the talents and The kind who says I was hungry and you gave me to eat…
Sounds like we will indeed be judged on works which is a result of our faith.
Baptism is the way Jesus chose but He can also make exceptions. I am quite sure that all those who were faithful to God before Jesus came were saved and were not baptized by water. Baptism was commanded by Jesus when did the command become effective in my opinion when He told the apostles to go and teach and baptize. You don’t see a conversion without baptism.
There is another thought how do you know he wasn’t baptized?
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slh3016
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Go back and read Exodus 12. Not only did the Israelites have to kill the lamb, sprinkle its blood on their doorposts, but they ALSO had to consume the lamb.
John tells us in John 1:29 that John the Baptist calls Jesus “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”
Jesus tells us in John 6:56, “Whoever eats my flesh and drink my blood remains in me, and I in him.”
Therefore, every Eucharist where, by the power of the Holy Spirit, the bread and wine become the flesh and blood (and remember Jesus is the Lamb of God and the lamb was also required to be eaten by the Israelites during the Passover in Exodus), Catholics partake in the eternal Passover, described in Revelation. The reality of the Eucharist and the early church’s beliefs regarding it are littered throughout the writings of the early church fathers, which I had never even heard of until I started studying the Catholic Church. Conveniently, my former Baptist and non-denominational preachers never bothered to mention them, but they were always ready to quote Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the Westminster Confession every chance they got
Until I learned about the Catholic faith, I had no idea what they believed and/or why they believed it. It is a beautiful faith, a faith that is rooted in the “fullness of Christ.”
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