Why do other faiths believe we have pagan roots?

[benotagoat]

Hi
Your friend sounds really lovely. She is dedicated to her faith as a JW. It is great that you have a great relationship while you each belong to different denominations. I go to a Baptist church. I hope you don’t mind, I was reading your post to my husband who told me that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus Christ’s Deity.

Anyway, I did want to pass on some info re your question.
Mother and child worship: Babylon had goddess mother Semiramis, her child Tammuz in her arms. Chinese had Shingmoo or the "Holy Mother. Child in her arms, rays of glory around her head. Germans worshipped the virgin Hertha, with child in her arms. The Etruscans Nutria, Scandinavians Disa, with a child. The Druids, the Virgo-Patitura was worshipped as the “Mother of God”

In pagan religion, the mother was worshipped more than the son. Catholic teaching: pray to Mary, she will take your petition to her son. Inferring she is more compassionate than Jesus.
Checked my bible. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” I guess that means you shouldn’t be going thru Mary but directly to Jesus…hmm
Attempts to exalt Mary eg “immaculate conception” to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism. Myths had the goddess having a supernatural conception. Church doctrine says Mary was born without the stain of sin. Bible search: Romans 3:23 “All have sinned (except Jesus)” Luke 1:46 “And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” Mary says she needed a Savior.
Prayers to saints. Buddhists had their deities, goddess of sailors, the god of war on and on. Ancient Rome had Brighit, goddess od smiths and poetry. Juno Regina, goddess of womanhood and marriage. These merged into the church. Gods & goddesses renamed saints. Bible search: Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus”. Saints were alive not dead. I read Isaiah 8:19 “Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” If we want a saint to pray for us, it must be a living person. Pictures of saints have halos. Artists, sculptors of Babylon used the disk or aureola around gods and goddesses. Buddha too.
In 63 BC Julius Caesar was recognized as “Pontifex Maximus” In 378 Demasus, bishop of Rome, was elected Pontifex Maximus” official high priest of the mysteries. Title “Pontifex Maximus” repeatedly found on inscriptions at Vatican. Above statue of Peter, in the dome.

Keys to the Kingdom. Pagan god Janus, goddess Cybele had mystic keys. When the Roman emperor claimed to be the successor of the “gods” and the Supreme Pontiff of the mysteries, the keys came to be symbols of his authority. In 378 the bishop of Rome became Pontifex Maximus, he automatically became the possessor of the mystic keys.
Anyway, there is lots more. I have a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which has far more information than I can pass on throuth the forum.
Hope this helps helps. Reading or researching the bible will also provide a lot of answers.
Carmen

Thankyou Carmen .

 

[JimmyG88]

This is correct but different than unbaptized infants. It is not limbo. Christ descended to the place of the dead to retrieve the righteous who awaited his unlocking of heaven. It’s said they were in Abraham’s bosom waiting.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/resua1.htm

And in Catholic tradition there was the Limbo of the Partiarchs and Limbo of the unbaptised. So limbo of the patriciarchs (described as a place in hell. Like Limbo) so it’s just the limbo of the unbaptised that has been debunked. I’m confused now

 

[Jon_S_1]

And in Catholic tradition there was the Limbo of the Partiarchs and Limbo of the unbaptised. So limbo of the patriciarchs (described as a place in hell. Like Limbo) so it’s just the limbo of the unbaptised that has been debunked. I’m confused now

Yes, but it is separate from hell. Hell is the place of the damned. It is more correct to say he descended to the dead. Hell is a confusing translation.

 

[JimmyG88]

Yes, but it is separate from hell. Hell is the place of the damned. It is more correct to say he descended to the dead. Hell is a confusing translation.

I’m not being difficult honestly. I just like to understand. The place in hell for the righteous before Christ is a place (not of punishment but seperate from heaven) the limbo of the unbaptised was really a bit of a myth. What is the position about unbaptised righteous people who have not heard the word of God? Thanks for helping me understand this

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m not being difficult honestly. I just like to understand. The place in hell for the righteous before Christ is a place (not of punishment but seperate from heaven) the limbo of the unbaptised was really a bit of a myth. What is the position about unbaptised righteous people who have not heard the word of God? Thanks for helping me understand this

The church relies on a hope of Gods justice and mercy for such people. We frankly don’t know. It is not part of Gods revelation to us. So we hope that God has a way to save those who are completely ignorant of his message of salvation, but yet seek God as best they know.

This is a simple hope and since we don’t know we must rely on what we do know and follow Christ’s commission to preach the gospel to all people of all nations baptizing them for their salvation.

 

[slh3016]

Thankyou Carmen .

Dear benotagoat,

I sincerely hope that you are being facetious with this comment on this particular post of Carmen’s. If not, I strongly advise you to read the entire thread which definitely shows and proves that the information cited by her in these claims from a certain book HAVE BEEN DISCREDITED BY ITS OWN AUTHOR!

Thanks!

 

[Mousey]

And in Catholic tradition there was the Limbo of the Partiarchs and Limbo of the unbaptised. So limbo of the patriciarchs (described as a place in hell. Like Limbo) so it’s just the limbo of the unbaptised that has been debunked. I’m confused now

It is disrespectful and inaccurate to say that it was debunked.

 

[JimmyG88]

It is disrespectful and inaccurate to say that it was debunked.

Kindly don’t set yourself up as the vocabulary police officer and attempt to tell me that I am disrespectful. Perhaps rather than criticise my word choices you would like to explain why it is inaccurate. If you had read the rest of this thread you would see that all I have done is ask for further and better information and your unwanted intervention does nothing at all to encourage a learning discourse. Please take some time to confirm that the verb debunk means merely to expose the falseness of a belief.

 

[Mousey]

Kindly don’t set yourself up as the vocabulary police officer and attempt to tell me that I am disrespectful. Perhaps rather than criticise my word choices you would like to explain why it is inaccurate. If you had read the rest of this thread you would see that all I have done is ask for further and better information and your unwanted intervention does nothing at all to encourage a learning discourse. Please take some time to confirm that the verb debunk means merely to expose the falseness of a belief.

Now who setting themselves as vocabulary police I did indeed look up the word. If you had you would know why it was wrong. Before you tell me to take some time you should do it yourself. It is obvious from your strident tone that you aren’t interested in truth or finding things out.

 

[Dorothy]

Undoubtedly. It was taught and taught clearly

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506867.htm

The article explains that limbo was speculative theology that many Catholics understood to be official teaching.

 

[JimmyG88]

Now who setting themselves as vocabulary police I did indeed look up the word. If you had you would know why it was wrong. Before you tell me to take some time you should do it yourself. It is obvious from your strident tone that you aren’t interested in truth or finding things out.

It’s quite odd that you can know I am interested in neither truth or finding things out. I fail to understand how you know that. Is it because I told you to stop attempting to read my mind and that I told you that I found your intervention unnecessary and counterproductive

 

[carmenp1]

Ok I will play Carmen.

Didn’t realize you thought I was playing.

I am citing the bible. But I didn’t write it. Is this why you make that sarcastic comment? What have I said, except to agree with God’s Word. You are free to just say…I don’t believe that part of the bible. It’s a discussion, not a game.

Do you believe every infant and child killed goes to heaven?
Where is that in the bible?
I have no idea if every infant and child goes to heaven. It’s not in the bible.

Do you believe in child dedications? Where is that in the Bible?
I am not sure about that one. Probably not.

Do you believe in the Bible alone? Where does the Bible say that all truth is in its pages?
We are not to live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of God. It’s God’s Word if He spoke it? Right?

How do you know what books are even in the Bible? There is no where in the Bible that dictates a list of things?
There are 66 books. I take the bible as God’s word by faith. I have done that and because God has honored my belief in His Word, I know that these books are there because God put them there. When I read a fairy story and a character has some magic words, if I follow that, nothing is going to happen. That question sounds like you don’t believe the bible. Is that right?

Where is the sinners prayer in the Bible?
The sinner’s prayer isn’t a prayer that is set in concrete, like the hail Mary for example. Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth (say it out loud, not in your head) the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart (faith) that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”. Anyone can pray what God is saying in this scripture using their own words. God makes it so easy.

Where does the Bible describe someone like John Smyth coming and reinventing the faith?
1Timothy 4:1 " Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking likes in hypocracy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."

Where does the Bible say that the church would fail and need to be reformed? I doubt you would find a direct scripture. The church is going to fail go forth and fix it. I have read scripture that warns of men who are like wolves in sheep’s clothing, beware of false prophets. When a church goes outside of biblical teachings, it’s a man or men who take people of a church or churches down the wrong road.

The sooner you realize you aren’t realky following the Bible Alone the better. At least be honest with yourself…you are following a baptist tradition regarding the bible. We could go on and on with this stuff and even pair you against other baptists for comparison

You know I spend very little time with others in my church. We don’t ever discuss baptist teachings or doctrines. We chat. I hear the preaching taken from the bible. I spent time in reading my bible. Prayer. Listening sometimes to apologists. But everything I believe has come from the bible. It’s up to me to do things like tithe, no rules (unlike the Potters House), up to me to believe God loves me, up to me to believe God wants us to have the Holy Spirit. Up to me if I go to church every Sunday. I can’t always make it. Really, I don’t know any rules, regulations or doctrine that I or anyone has to follow. Water Baptism is by choice. Salvation is by choice. Giving is by choice. Singing is by choice. Dedicating an infant is nice but not necessary. It is really just the church praying for that family and their child.

I got saved under Pastor Spurgeon who was the pastor of The Potter’s House in Launceston, Tasmania. He and his wife were humble and godly.

They left to preach in England. We had a new pastor and his wife. This pastor and his wife over the next 12 years gradually made so many rules that we found ourselves in a cult. The problem lay in the fact the new pastor, especially his wife were more focused on fleecing the sheep. Making sure no one left for a holiday too long and miss out on their tithe and offerings.

I left with another older woman. We searched for God in a lot of churches but couldn’t find Him. We were not Baptist. But we finally found a small baptist church, the Summer hill baptist Church in Launceston. We knew God was in this church.

We were both completely gutted with having to leave the church we got saved in. The loss of Christians who were told not to talk to us. God healed and comforted us and the preaching spoke to our hearts. When I moved home to Melbourne I had to search different churches again to find God. 2 years later, I found the Suburban baptist church and God’s presence was in this church. The preaching was anointed and everyone received help in their different circumstances. Not every Baptist church has got the ministering ministering presence of God.

 

[carmenp1]

It’s called Baptism of Desire. We can discuss it another time.

Carmen-

Thanks for the preaching. It’s always nice to be reminded of the basics of our faith, and I appreciate your high view of the Blood of Jesus. :yup:

For now, let me focus on this: If Jesus had not died upon the cross, being baptized into Christ would be meaningless. His death and resurrection make everything else possible.

We are baptized into Christ, and as a result, we died with Him.

Romans 6:3
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

It certainly appears that water baptism is a really big deal…one that Paul was quick to address in the middle of the night with the Philippian jailer, one that Peter insisted upon even with those upon whom the Holy Spirit had already fallen.

I have no problem with water baptism. But only after someone has believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[carmenp1]

I don’t believe in Limbo. I’m not sure I ever did. It is however an example of a ‘borrowing’ from other traditions. Can anyone enlighten me about the line in the Apostles Creed ‘…He descended into Hell’. This was taught to us as Jesus ‘unlocking’ the limbo of the Patriarchs and Prophets in order to allow them to share in the heavenly Kingdom. If it was taught incorrectly all I can say is that it was done so with the knowledge of the Bishops (I assume the American ones knew it was in their catechism) and it was taught in school uniformly because I’m not the only one who was taught it

I was taught about limbo at my catholic school. In the catechism. The nuns taught us kids about pergatory. I learnt about the Inquisition from history books. I learnt about the selling of indulgence by priests telling the poor they could pay their way into heaven, pay for loived ones to get out of pergatory. A nun told me when I asked if Adam and eve were real, no it’s just a story. I thought, if that’s not true what else is not true? I couldn’t even believe in the bible anymore.

 

[carmenp1]

Now who setting themselves as vocabulary police I did indeed look up the word. If you had you would know why it was wrong. Before you tell me to take some time you should do it yourself. It is obvious from your strident tone that you aren’t interested in truth or finding things out.

How can you conclude that from what was said??

 

[Mousey]

It’s quite odd that you can know I am interested in neither truth or finding things out. I fail to understand how you know that. Is it because I told you to stop attempting to read my mind and that I told you that I found your intervention unnecessary and counterproductive

Interesting that you claim I can read your mind and yet you know if I did or didn’t look up the meaning of the word. The only thing counterproductive is your ad hominem attacks.

Now you add that you have told me to stop reading your mind what post. I won’t hold my breath for an answer as you made it up just like you make all the other stuff up. My intervention? Guess what this is a public forum and as long as you obey the rules you are free to post what ever you want. When you post lies I will indeed correct them.

 

[Mousey]

How can you conclude that from what was said??

Not you another poster who’s post is quoted

 

[carmenp1]

The simple truth is this: it was taught from the pulpit, it was taught in school and we believed it. Now because we believe that it isn’t so. Because scholars and theologians, not least Pope Benedict have studied it and come to believe that it’s not so

You know, I love your attitude. You may not agree…etc but will defend your right to say it.

Freedom of speech and liberty for truth.
:clapping:

 

[Dorothy]

I was taught about limbo at my catholic school. In the catechism. The nuns taught us kids about pergatory. I learnt about the Inquisition from history books. I learnt about the selling of indulgence by priests telling the poor they could pay their way into heaven, pay for loived ones to get out of pergatory. A nun told me when I asked if Adam and eve were real, no it’s just a story. I thought, if that’s not true what else is not true? I couldn’t even believe in the bible anymore.

I, too, was told about limbo, which was a theological speculation, not a doctrine.

The part about paying for indulgences was corruption by members who were not listening to the true teachings of the Church.

" Priests telling the poor they could pay their way into heaven."…was mentioned by you. If that is true then they were sinning! I do think that is an exaggeration, as many people who do not know about the Catholic faith ran with accusations and they snowballed into larger than what they were.

Corruption of members does not eclipse the truths that our Lord Jesus Christ taught. There are many saints who practiced heroic virtue and are models for us as to what He can do when we love and obey Him.

The Church teaches and defends that the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, existed, that they fell from the grace that was given them, and we needed a Saviour.

If teachers in the Catholic Church do not clearly present the faith due to carelessness, then they could benefit much from correct catechesis.

 

[carmenp1]

I, too, was told about limbo, which was a theological speculation, not a doctrine.

The part about paying for indulgences was corruption by members who were not listening to the true teachings of the Church.

" Priests telling the poor they could pay their way into heaven."…was mentioned by you. If that is true then they were sinning! I do think that is an exaggeration, as many people who do not know about the Catholic faith ran with accusations and they snowballed into larger than what they were.

Corruption of members does not eclipse the truths that our Lord Jesus Christ taught. There are many saints who practiced heroic virtue and are models for us as to what can do when we cooperate and obey Him.

The Church teaches and defends that the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, existed, that they fell from the grace that was given them, and we needed a Saviour.

If teachers in the Catholic Church do not clearly present the faith due to carelessness, then they could benefit much from correct catechesis.

I like your honesty. We know that the history of the Catholic church has had it’sdoes s where reform was needed. I was saved in a church that turned from truth to such extreme opposites of biblical teaching, that the Pastor was seen as the one to dictate how the Church should be run. He said who would marry who. He forbade women to wear pants. If you weren’t at church, the pastor’s wife would ring to get you to go. You could go away on holiday for only a few weeks. If you extended your holiday, pastor’s wife would ring to tell you off and say you had to get back. You were told to stay away from non members. If you broke rank, the church ostracized you and your kids.

The truth should never be denied. When I started to see that the people I believed were so true to their faith, were charlatans, I denounced them. If a church’s leadership strays from bible teaching, it’s time to leave. The bible is the litmus test for doctrine and what a church does in comparison to what the bible says they are able to do.