Why do other faiths believe we have pagan roots?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rarra1985
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
She used Constantine as one of the examples of using Christianity as a cover up for paganism. Gosh I wish I knew more so I could explain it to her.
You can search on this forum out the issue of Constantine. There are a lot of information. I remember this interesting discussion:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=860909&page=48 (only the 3 last pages).

Constantine never was catholic. In fact he was baptized few days before his dead but in the arian faith (an anti-trinitarian heresy). In the last years of his reign he persecuted some of the most illustrious catholic apologetics of this age as Athanasius of Alexandria and others. The reasons: because those bishops of the catholic faith as Athanasius fought for the cause of Holy Trinity (formulated in the nicean creed) against arian heresy. The mentor of Constantine was Eusebius of Nicomedia, the arian bishop who baptized Constatine. The arian baptism is problematic (Athanasius denied its validity) so is difficult to determine if Constantine can be considered christian. So, your friend is deadly wrong about Constantine
 
I posted this on another thread that also questioned about Catholicism having elements of paganism:
In Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, there is a great chapter (Ch. 12, Fanciful Histories of Catholicism) that makes wonderful points explaining/debunking the [paganism theories].
In the last two paragraphs, he states, “…we should expect the true religion to be a fulfillment of, but not a complete contradiction of, mankind’s earlier stabs at religious truth. After all, each ancient religion had something true in it, even if what was true was buried under much that was false and even pernicious. On a positive side, ancient religions were remote preparations for Christ’s coming, which occurred in the ‘fullness of time’, when mankind had taken itself about as far as it could go on its own. (next paragraph) We should expect that the religion that is the fullness of truth, coming in the ‘fullness of time’, would incorporate the good points of earlier religions while rejecting their errors.”
Earlier in that chapter, though, Keating talks about some of the mystery religions required new converts to go through a form of baptism. Although Keating is defending against Fundamentalism, this one point on baptism also applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses who also baptize and have other common practices. He says, “These cults bore marked, though superficial, resemblance to Catholicism, which is what fundamentalist writers have played on. They also bore marked resemblance to fundamentalism, at least in things that Catholicism and fundamentalism have in common, and this is something always overlooked in anti-Catholic writings. If the truth of Catholicism is undercut by similarities to mystery religions, so is the truth of fundamentalism. If Catholicism happens to have more points of similarity with paganism, it is not because it is more likely to have grown from these cults, but because it is a broader religion…If the existence of similarities means Catholicism is false, the same conclusion must be drawn about fundamentalism; in this regard, they sink or swim together.” (Emphasis mine)
 
Can anyone recommend any good books on Church history? I need to read more on the subject and I can’t defend my faith properly without being well informed

Thanks 👍😃
 
Does this principle apply to all faiths that are misrepresented or slandered by others or only to Catholicism?
No, not only to Catholicism. I do apologize for putting it that way.

However, I must say since I have been on the internet for 16 years I never dreamed what others thought what they did about what Catholics believe.
 
She also mentioned that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the religion that most resembles the Jewish faith, and she really felt that this conversation with this man validated her beliefs.
keep in mind, in the beginning, the Church Jesus said He will build, (The Catholic Church) was 100% Jewish. Not 75%, not 90%, but 100%. Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles, etc etc.

Who did Jesus come to convert? Matthew 15:24
Who did Jesus send His apostles to convert? Matthew 10:6, In Context

He gave the Jews 1st right of refusal. And as Jesus said He came to bring the sword. Those who would accept Him vs those who wouldn’t. He divided Father against son, Mother against daughter etc etc etc.

Jews therefore, were divided between those who didn’t convert vs those who did.
After Jews were given the 1st right of refusal, then the faith was opened up to everyone.

JW’S otoh, we know who started them and when they were started. They don’t resemble anybody but themselves. A purely manmade religion.
R:
Why is it that so many people of other faiths feel our religion has pagan roots?
they need to justify themselves. Good luck with THAT
 
Constantine was Catholic for most of his life as Emperor, except for the times when he was being Arian.

Getting Baptized right before you died was actually pretty common for lifelong members of the Church, and Constantine probably picked up the bad habit from people who’d been in the Church a lot longer. The idea was that it acted to forgive your sins, whereas committing big sins in the Church after Baptism meant you had to deal with the embarrassment and hard work of public confession and penitence. (And penances lasted yearrrrs back then.) So if you waited, you could have a lot more leeway to sin as a lifelong catechumen, even if you couldn’t receive Communion or attend Mass beyond the Gospel reading.

Needless to say, the bishops spent several centuries killing that bad idea off. It took a while.
 
Because the pagan Gods and rituals were a major influence at that time when Jesus lived, and then as Christianity developed.
The celebration of Christmas, for example, has it’s roots in the pagan festival of the winter solstice and celebration of the Sun God–which was celebrated at that time in December with many similar rituals.
There are only so many days in a year. If a day chosen to commemorate someone’s birthday happens to coincide with someone’s else special day, do you conclude that birthdate to be of the same root/source as the other?

I think “roots” is a poor choice of word as it denote that Christianity rose from paganism. It is not but instead is a fulfillment of the ancient Abrahamic faith. No one owns winter solstice. To commemorate the arrival of the “Sun of Righteousness” on winter solstice day itself is very apt. And with Emperor Constantine behind you, choosing Dec 25 definitely has the advantage of upending the pagans on that day.
But on a more serious note, to take the trinity for example…pagans had more than one “god” while Judaism had only one “god”.
And the idea of a “triple deity” has been around a long time.
In Greek mythology, for example,the “triple goddesses” always showed the three goddesses together as a single deity.
In 14 Century BC, the Egyptians had a trinity God: “All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah.”
There are many examples of triple deities in different cultures and religions before Christianity developed.
If you google “history of trinity” you will find many theological and historical articles that will answer the question you pose.
But do those gods refer to the Christian God? If they do not, then the number 3 signify nothing other than just another number. Just because someone had a “3” that is important to them doesn’t mean others don’t. Or that one must influence the other. Being early to the scene does not warrant that all subsequent “threes” must arise or copy from the early comer.
 
Why is it that so many people of other faiths feel our religion has pagan roots?
Hi
Your friend sounds really lovely. She is dedicated to her faith as a JW. It is great that you have a great relationship while you each belong to different denominations. I go to a Baptist church. I hope you don’t mind, I was reading your post to my husband who told me that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus Christ’s Deity.

Anyway, I did want to pass on some info re your question.
Mother and child worship: Babylon had goddess mother Semiramis, her child Tammuz in her arms. Chinese had Shingmoo or the "Holy Mother. Child in her arms, rays of glory around her head. Germans worshipped the virgin Hertha, with child in her arms. The Etruscans Nutria, Scandinavians Disa, with a child. The Druids, the Virgo-Patitura was worshipped as the “Mother of God”

In pagan religion, the mother was worshipped more than the son. Catholic teaching: pray to Mary, she will take your petition to her son. Inferring she is more compassionate than Jesus.
Checked my bible. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” I guess that means you shouldn’t be going thru Mary but directly to Jesus…hmm
Attempts to exalt Mary eg “immaculate conception” to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism. Myths had the goddess having a supernatural conception. Church doctrine says Mary was born without the stain of sin. Bible search: Romans 3:23 “All have sinned (except Jesus)” Luke 1:46 “And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” Mary says she needed a Savior.
Prayers to saints. Buddhists had their deities, goddess of sailors, the god of war on and on. Ancient Rome had Brighit, goddess od smiths and poetry. Juno Regina, goddess of womanhood and marriage. These merged into the church. Gods & goddesses renamed saints. Bible search: Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus”. Saints were alive not dead. I read Isaiah 8:19 “Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” If we want a saint to pray for us, it must be a living person. Pictures of saints have halos. Artists, sculptors of Babylon used the disk or aureola around gods and goddesses. Buddha too.
In 63 BC Julius Caesar was recognized as “Pontifex Maximus” In 378 Demasus, bishop of Rome, was elected Pontifex Maximus” official high priest of the mysteries. Title “Pontifex Maximus” repeatedly found on inscriptions at Vatican. Above statue of Peter, in the dome.

Keys to the Kingdom. Pagan god Janus, goddess Cybele had mystic keys. When the Roman emperor claimed to be the successor of the “gods” and the Supreme Pontiff of the mysteries, the keys came to be symbols of his authority. In 378 the bishop of Rome became Pontifex Maximus, he automatically became the possessor of the mystic keys.
Anyway, there is lots more. I have a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which has far more information than I can pass on throuth the forum.
Hope this helps helps. Reading or researching the bible will also provide a lot of answers.
Carmen
 
Dear Carmen,

By your post you have just displayed that you believe all the twisted lies about the Catholic Church that have been perpetrated over the centuries. They have all been refuted by sincere and articulate people and there is no necessity for them to be refuted here.

May the Lord lead you to prayerfully study the history of the Church.

There is opportunity for you to do so right here in this site.

Peace in Jesus,

Dorothy
 
Hi
Your friend sounds really lovely. She is dedicated to her faith as a JW. It is great that you have a great relationship while you each belong to different denominations. I go to a Baptist church. I hope you don’t mind, I was reading your post to my husband who told me that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus Christ’s Deity.

Anyway, I did want to pass on some info re your question.
Mother and child worship: Babylon had goddess mother Semiramis, her child Tammuz in her arms. Chinese had Shingmoo or the "Holy Mother. Child in her arms, rays of glory around her head. Germans worshipped the virgin Hertha, with child in her arms. The Etruscans Nutria, Scandinavians Disa, with a child. The Druids, the Virgo-Patitura was worshipped as the “Mother of God”

In pagan religion, the mother was worshipped more than the son. Catholic teaching: pray to Mary, she will take your petition to her son. Inferring she is more compassionate than Jesus.
Checked my bible. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” I guess that means you shouldn’t be going thru Mary but directly to Jesus…hmm
Attempts to exalt Mary eg “immaculate conception” to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism. Myths had the goddess having a supernatural conception. Church doctrine says Mary was born without the stain of sin. Bible search: Romans 3:23 “All have sinned (except Jesus)” Luke 1:46 “And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” Mary says she needed a Savior.
Prayers to saints. Buddhists had their deities, goddess of sailors, the god of war on and on. Ancient Rome had Brighit, goddess od smiths and poetry. Juno Regina, goddess of womanhood and marriage. These merged into the church. Gods & goddesses renamed saints. Bible search: Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus”. Saints were alive not dead. I read Isaiah 8:19 “Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” If we want a saint to pray for us, it must be a living person. Pictures of saints have halos. Artists, sculptors of Babylon used the disk or aureola around gods and goddesses. Buddha too.
In 63 BC Julius Caesar was recognized as “Pontifex Maximus” In 378 Demasus, bishop of Rome, was elected Pontifex Maximus” official high priest of the mysteries. Title “Pontifex Maximus” repeatedly found on inscriptions at Vatican. Above statue of Peter, in the dome.

Keys to the Kingdom. Pagan god Janus, goddess Cybele had mystic keys. When the Roman emperor claimed to be the successor of the “gods” and the Supreme Pontiff of the mysteries, the keys came to be symbols of his authority. In 378 the bishop of Rome became Pontifex Maximus, he automatically became the possessor of the mystic keys.
Anyway, there is lots more. I have a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which has far more information than I can pass on throuth the forum.
Hope this helps helps. Reading or researching the bible will also provide a lot of answers.
Carmen
Great explanation to the OP on why and where a lot of these things come from.

Thankfully none of them actually DO come from these things - nor do they mean what the author of the referenced book purports them to mean.

Peace
James
 
Can anyone recommend any good books on Church history? I need to read more on the subject and I can’t defend my faith properly without being well informed

Thanks 👍😃
One of the oldest is History of The Church by Eusebius. It is the pioneer work giving a chronological account of the development of The Early Church. It was written around A.D. 300 so it is very close to the events it records.
 
Attempts to exalt Mary eg “immaculate conception” to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism. Myths had the goddess having a supernatural conception. Church doctrine says Mary was born without the stain of sin. Bible search: Romans 3:23 “All have sinned (except Jesus)” Luke 1:46 "And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” Mary says she needed a Savior.
My Bible search found:

Luke 1:48
From now on all generations will call me blessed,

I’m part of the generation that calls Mary blessed. Are you?

Further, many people reject the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and argue that Mary was not born sinless and that she did not remain sinless all of her life. In support of their position, they often quote a passage from Paul’s Letter to the Romans which declares, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

However, does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.
 
Prayers to saints. Buddhists had their deities, goddess of sailors, the god of war on and on. Ancient Rome had Brighit, goddess od smiths and poetry. Juno Regina, goddess of womanhood and marriage. These merged into the church. Gods & goddesses renamed saints. Bible search: Ephesians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus”. Saints were alive not dead. I read Isaiah 8:19 “Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” If we want a saint to pray for us, it must be a living person.
Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture
  1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ
“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)
  1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ
“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)
  1. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)
  1. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth
“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)
  1. The Church is the Body of Christ
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)
  1. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ
“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)
  1. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.
“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
 
Keys to the Kingdom. Pagan god Janus, goddess Cybele had mystic keys. When the Roman emperor claimed to be the successor of the “gods” and the Supreme Pontiff of the mysteries, the keys came to be symbols of his authority. In 378 the bishop of Rome became Pontifex Maximus, he automatically became the possessor of the mystic keys.
Peter – The Royal Steward Proved from Scripture

Here are two questions that need to be answered:

1. Is Jesus a king?
2. Did He re-establish the office of the Royal Steward?


You probably said “Yes” quickly to the first question, but you may have hesitated or even answered “No” to the second. Let’s take a look at what scripture and history tell us about the office of the Royal Steward.

In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command (known as the royal steward or prime minister) who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. The prophet Isaiah confirms this:

Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

In the passage above, God is speaking to Shebnah, an unfaithful steward serving King Hezekiah. God is telling Shebnah that he is about to be replaced by Eliakim, and this confirms the existence of the office, the key worn as a symbol of the office, and the continuation of the office in perpetuity – despite the change of office holder. In other words, the office of the royal steward continued even when the man who held the office died or was replaced by someone else. God Himself passes the key from one steward to the next.

In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus inherits the throne of his father, David.

Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.

We also read the following:

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The passage quoted above from Matthew tells us that Jesus named Peter as His royal steward and gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven" as the symbol of his authority to speak in His name. Since Jesus is an eternal king, the office of royal steward in His kingdom will never end. Peter died as a martyr as Jesus foretold, but the successors of Peter have taken his place in the perpetual office that Jesus established in His royal court.

In addition to the reference to a key or keys, note the following parallels:

"What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Is. 22:22)
"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt. 16:19)

Jesus specifically referenced the passage from Isaiah when He appointed Peter, and Peter received authority from Jesus to speak universally in His name. To do so faithfully, Peter must not teach error; therefore, Peter (and his successors who hold the office of the Royal Steward - also known as the Bishop of Rome) are protected by God through the charism of infallibility.
 
Anyway, there is lots more. I have a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which has far more information than I can pass on throuth the forum.
I have a Bible which disproves most of what that book asserts.

And did you know that the author later changed his mind about much of what he had written in the book you own? He wrote another:

amazon.com/Babylon-Connection-Ralph-Woodrow/dp/0916938174/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424622481&sr=1-1&keywords=babylon+connection

The Babylon-connection charge is very common in Fundamentalist literature. The two most influential books in this regard are The Two Babylons, written in the mid-nineteenth century by Englishman Alexander Hislop, and Babylon Mystery Religion, a twentieth-century popularization of Hislop’s material written by American Ralph Woodrow. However plausible Hislop’s ideas may have been in his own day (when archaeology and anthropology were in their infancy), we now know them to be utterly false. Even Ralph Woodrow realized this after he wrote Babylon Mystery Religion, and he proved himself to be a man of conscience by writing a new book (The Babylon Connection?) to disprove his own and Hislop’s earlier work.

Unfortunately, this has not stopped The Two Babylons and Babylon Mystery Religion from continuing to have a great influence on Fundamentalist prophecy writers, since the earlier discredited claims serve their doctrinal agenda.

So, Carmen, what you believe to be true about Catholicism has been repudiated by the author of the very book you want to quote in this forum.
Hope this helps helps. Reading or researching the bible will also provide a lot of answers.
Carmen
Yep. That’s why Catholics penned, preserved, protected, promoted, promulgated and preached the Bible.

We’ve been doing it for the past 2,000 years.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
I have a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which has far more information than I can pass on throuth the forum.
Unfortunately, your book has been discontinued and repudiated by its own author, who came to realise that he had based it upon incompetent scholarship. Even the part of it which you quoted here is riddled with historical inaccuracies: Semiramis was a person, not a deity; Tammuz was a consort god, not a child god, “Hertha” was Nerthus, of whom I can find nothing suggesting that she was a virgin, etc.

Finally, though, from another Protestant, let me just point out that Catholicism has very strict rules against worshipping Mary. This often confuses Protestants, because we (generally) do not have the veneration of saints at all, and so we do not recognise the difference between veneration and worship, but it is something which they thought about and banned long, long ago.
 
I’m part of the generation that calls Mary blessed. Are you?
Mary did say that. She was truly blessed.

they often quote a passage from Paul’s Letter to the Romans which declares, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)
Scripture is the source upon which our faith is based.

Where in the bible can I find a reference to Mary’s immaculate conception?
If there is an exclusion saying Mary was born sinless, where is it in the bible?

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus?

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, (Adam died spiritually when he sinned) This passage is referring to being dead in sin as it says in Ephesians 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins” Also in 1 Peter 1:23 “having been born again, not of corruptible seed by incorruptible” also in John 3:7 "do not marvel that I said to you, “you must be born again” also John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"so in Christ all will be made alive.”

That’s exactly what God is talking about. Thru our belief that the blood of Christ was shed for our sins and we repent, we will be saved. God births us into His kingdom and we become children of God, not of perdiction as we were when at our birth. Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Except for Enoch, Elijah - no. Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”. These could be the 2 witnesses that will preach during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Revelations 5:4 “So I wept much, because no one was found worth to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals” And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.” Jesus is the Lamb of God. He alone was worthy. That excludes every descendant of Adam and Eve, except Jesus Christ.

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not!

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions. Where in scripture are the exceptions of those who were born without sin?

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary. What scripture is there that proves she was sinless?
This was said to Mary in Luke 1:28 "…the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favoured one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end”

Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word”
42 Elisabeth says…“blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb”
45 “Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfilment of those things which were told her from the Lord”
48 Mary says…“For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed”

Favoured and blessed are the only descriptions I can find. If there is a biblical reference upon which I can believe what you are saying that Mary was sinless, please show me. But bare in mind, God says I should believe Him, rather than men. That is why a bible reference is absolutely essential to make this point valid. I can’t just take any man’s word for it.

Carmen:shrug:
 
I want to add this very important scripture to the discussion regarding Mary’s sinless conception.

Luke 1:46 "Mary said…“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God, my SAVIOUR”

If Mary was born sinless, why does she need a Saviour?
Only sinners need a Saviour.
Jesus was sinless and he was the Saviour.

This scripture does pose a huge problem in being able to believe that Mary was an immaculate (without sin) conception.
Carmen

:hmmm:
 
ary did say that. She was truly blessed.
First, I note that you have ignored or remained silent on TWO posts that discredit Babylon Mystery Religion, the book of anti-Catholic propaganda you cited previously. It might be appropriate to for you to retract your previous statements and apologize to all Catholics for calling our faith into question as a result of false information contained in the book?
Where in the bible can I find a reference to Mary’s immaculate conception?
If there is an exclusion saying Mary was born sinless, where is it in the bible?
Second, where does the Bible teach that everything we know about our faith must be found explicitly stated in the Bible? (It doesn’t.) The Bible does not contain the word “trinity” nor does it contain an inspired table of contents. Some things are known by implicit reference, others by Tradition. But we can discuss that in another thread. For now, I will focus on providing the answer to your two questions quoted above.

Mary – Full of Grace (kecharitomene)

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Additionally, the angel’s greeting, “Hail, Full of Grace” suggests that “Full of Grace” is being used as a title and not as a mere description. This is analogous to the Roman greeting, “Hail, Caesar” said to someone whose name was “Julius” and whose title was “Caesar”.

From this passage, we can find clear support for the Church’s teaching that Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin and was herself full of grace from the moment that she was immaculately conceived in her mother’s womb by a singular gift of God.

Beyond this scriptural reference, the writings of the earliest Christians reveal that they believed Mary to have been “Immaculate” or without stain of sin. The dates of the following quotations show what the Church believed both before and after Constantine’s Edict of Milan in AD 313.

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

St. Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out Your sheep, not through Your servants or hired men, but do it Yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain of sin (ut incorrupta sit virgo, sed virgo per gratium ab omni integra labe peccati)." (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22-30, 387 A.D.)

St. Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (ibid.)

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

St. Augustine

Having excepted the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins,—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say again, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer? …if they had been so questioned, would they not have declared with a single voice: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us!”? (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1 [ante A.D. 446]).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top