Why do people choose to follow Messianic Judaism?

[Kouyate42]

Sorry, but is there actually a difference between Messianic Judaism and Seventh day Adventism?

Just wondering.

God Bless.

I think the major difference is that for the Messianic Judaism followers, everything follows a Jewish-icized understanding. They refer to the Moshiach and not the Messiah, call Jesus Yeshua and there is a distinctly Jewish vocabulary used in Messianic theology.

SDA’ers, whilst they follow kosher and other Jewish elements, do not practice the wearing of the tallit or tzitzit tassels as many Messianic people will do, and I believe that the vocabulary used, along with the orders of service, the actual teachings of the church and the major festivals are very much in the Christian camp.

 

[thomasf]

I wrote about an old girlfriend of mine that’s into this Messianic Judaism stuff. Her history of church hopping and christian ‘fads’ seem to point to her looking for some kind of ‘alternate’ christianity, something that’s different than all the other denominations, something that sets her apart. She’s always looking for ‘authentic’ early christianity, but she’s convinced that the catholic church is all wrong. No matter how ‘catholic’ the early worship services are shown to be via the early church fathers. IMO she just likes to be different and believe she’s found something that sets her apart from everyone else. And imo that’s the motive of most of these ‘special’ groups (cults).

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m quite confused as to the actual point of this hybrid religion, or why someone would choose to be part of it.

To myself, the word ‘Judaism’ signifies a specific set of beliefs and a certain group of people in the world. It signifies belief in HaShem, His Torah and in the covenant He established with Moses, the people of Israel, and the oservance of the Law.

It also seems to run contrary to the teachings of the Christian churches as a whole, as it places some emphasis on observance of Jewish practices, including keeping kosher and wearing the tallit, practicing circumcision etc.

I also find it as someone sympathetic to Judaism that such practices and religion is quite a mockery of the Jewish people by robbing them completely of their true, divine meanings. There’s also some issues with some of my Jewish friends that such a religious group is prosletysing by the back door. The Jews reject Jesus for their own reasons, but converting them shouldn’t mean forcing CHristian practice onto their beliefs.

Any thoughts?

It is basically Protestant thought with a different name or can be thought of as Jewish/Protestants. It is tied to the Dispensational notion that conversion of the Jews will usher in the return of Christ and it appeals to the Millinealist faction of Protestant thought.

It is however deja vu all over again as Paul extolled the Judaizing Christians…

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I think the major difference is that for the Messianic Judaism followers, everything follows a Jewish-icized understanding. They refer to the Moshiach and not the Messiah, call Jesus Yeshua and there is a distinctly Jewish vocabulary used in Messianic theology.

SDA’ers, whilst they follow kosher and other Jewish elements, do not practice the wearing of the tallit or tzitzit tassels as many Messianic people will do, and I believe that the vocabulary used, along with the orders of service, the actual teachings of the church and the major festivals are very much in the Christian camp.

Thanks.

 

[frnate]

The ones that I knew of their congregations were made entirely up of Christians many who were former baptists.

The way I heard it put by a friend of mine who is a “completed Jew” is this: “It’s a lot of Baptists and Pentecostals dressed up in Jewish drag…”

He is an Optometrist who converted in his office while waiting for his next patient and reading Isaiah 53 in his Tanakh.

++N

 

[Kouyate42]

The way I heard it put by a friend of mine who is a “completed Jew” is this: “It’s a lot of Baptists and Pentecostals dressed up in Jewish drag…”

He is an Optometrist who converted in his office while waiting for his next patient and reading Isaiah 53 in his Tanakh.

++N

I wish people woild learn that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not Jesus!

 

[Tonga]

My friend said it best. She (a jew) said it’s for people who want to be “down” with “Jewish thing”. It’s for people who want to be hip or gain cred.

She’s a brilliant woman who makes a good point.

I agree. It’s a hybrid religion for people who are attracted to Jewish culture and customs,
but can’t give up their belief in Jesus (nor should they).
They copy all sorts of Jewish rituals and culture that did not exist at the time of Jesus,
so they cannot claim they are practicing “Judaism” like Jesus did. They follow parts
of the Oral Law while at the same time deriding it as “man made”. They are a very
confused group.

 

[CopticChristian]

I wish people woild learn that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not Jesus!

You may want to consider the following. In my opinion it would be my desire that people would understand that Isaiah 53 is about Isreal as I read understanding that those that call themselves Christians believe it is Jesus.

You may wish for the Ebionites to return or for the walls of Jericho to fall again however what you wish and what you see is opinion that is counter to what others believe an hold dearly. I would not hold my breath for your wish.

 

[Tonga]

That would be the more appropriate name. It drives me nuts and I find it disrespectful to those who are truly Jewish when they prance around wearing talits and other sacred Jewish items and do with them as they please.

It is *very *offensive to us! And they go way overboard with wearing tallis, using menorahs,
etc etc. You can always spot them by the way they over do everything.

 

[Tonga]

I think a lot of them are looking for traditions–that is something that Evangelicals are missing. However, instead of looking at ancient Christianity, they look at Judaism.

good point.

 

[Tonga]

I wish people woild learn that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not Jesus!

Yeah, any Jew who would convert based on Isaiah 53 doesn’t know much about the tanach.

 

[oneseeker2]

They believe Jesus died for the Jews. So they follow Jewish tradition.

They couldn’t be any farther from the truth. Jesus died for all sins all we have to do is accept that he died for our sins, and do good works.

Untrue. Messianic Jews believe Jesus died for all of our sins. No Messianic Jew I know believes Jesus only died for the Jews.

Please speak to what you actually know, not what you think you know.

oneseeker2

 

[Kouyate42]

You may want to consider the following. In my opinion it would be my desire that people would understand that Isaiah 53 is about Isreal as I read understanding that those that call themselves Christians believe it is Jesus.

You may wish for the Ebionites to return or for the walls of Jericho to fall again however what you wish and what you see is opinion that is counter to what others believe an hold dearly. I would not hold my breath for your wish.

Problem is that Christianity as a whole seems to force its Jesus glasses onto the face of any Old Testament passage it seems to choose, regardless of the actual meaning of the passage.

Yeah, any Jew who would convert based on Isaiah 53 doesn’t know much about the tanach.

Well even a most basic reading of the actual passage in question would tell you that the passage is about Israel.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Well even a most basic reading of the actual passage in question would tell you that the passage is about Israel.

It does? I don’t think so. It is a huge stretch to say that, no matter what Rabbis say.

Isaiah 53 can not possibly refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah (deny that the Messiah is Jesus if you wish, I will not)

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: “Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!” He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had “done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!”

 

[MorningSong51]

I agree. It’s a hybrid religion for people who are attracted to Jewish culture and customs,
but can’t give up their belief in Jesus (nor should they).
They copy all sorts of Jewish rituals and culture that did not exist at the time of Jesus,
so they cannot claim they are practicing “Judaism” like Jesus did. They follow parts
of the Oral Law while at the same time deriding it as “man made”. They are a very
confused group.

So when they mention that they follow Shabbat regulations instead of Sunday for Christians how does this affect them? Since it is a command that only the Jewish people must follow it? Not even Bnei Noach follow the Shabbat because of the strict regulations - against it. Messianic Judaism - follows it because some are actually Jewish but for those who are not Jewish - I thought it was not recommended. So really Christians, are in the right for not adhering to the Shabbat regulations, like some who are following Jewish law. So really they shouldn’t openly criticize anyone in regards to this, since their not adhering to the regulations.

 

[MorningSong51]

Problem is that Christianity as a whole seems to force its Jesus glasses onto the face of any Old Testament passage it seems to choose, regardless of the actual meaning of the passage.

Well even a most basic reading of the actual passage in question would tell you that the passage is about Israel.

about Israel and the redeemer of Israel - yes, there are passage throughout the O.T (Tanakh) that express the redeemer of Israel, it seems to follow the direction to Jesus since we consider him to be the Messiah,“by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many…For he bore the sin of many,and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Wasn’t this passage read on Yom Kippur?

 

[MorningSong51]

added thought to the Shabbat regulations: Bnei Noach can be observant of the Shabbat but not in the same way as the Jewish people. In some way they must break it - but you can still be observant of the day, true?. Bnei Noach, means righteous Gentile, so if the Christian would want to follow it and light a candle to be observant, they must really be instructed, like I said, in some way to break the Shabbat by various activity within the day with their family or friends -

B’nei Noach are permitted to keep any of the 613 mitzvot given to the Jews with these exceptions:

1. Observing Shabbat in the same manner as the Jews;
2. Observing the Jewish holy days in the same manner as the Jews;
3. Studying the parts of the Mishnah/ Talmud that are not related to the B’nei Noach mitzvot;
4. Writing a Torah Scroll;
5. Receiving an aliyah;
6. Making, writing, or wearing tefillin

becomingjewish.org/7laws.html

I would think that a Messianic Rabbi would instruct them in this way - it still follows the seven laws of the Noahides.

 

[Kouyate42]

It does? I don’t think so. It is a huge stretch to say that, no matter what Rabbis say.

Isaiah 53 can not possibly refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah (deny that the Messiah is Jesus if you wish, I will not)

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: “Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!” He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had “done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!”

I can only apologize for sleep-typing last night…

But even if it were the case that that passage in Isaiah 53 really is about the Moshiach, you then have to prove that Jesus IS the Messiah, for which there are a number of Jewish responses to this which quite clearly state that Jesus does not qualify as being so.

about Israel and the redeemer of Israel - yes, there are passage throughout the O.T (Tanakh) that express the redeemer of Israel, it seems to follow the direction to Jesus since we consider him to be the Messiah,“by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many…For he bore the sin of many,and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Wasn’t this passage read on Yom Kippur?

I’m getting kinda bored now of repeating the same thing over and over…there is a BIG body of halakhic Jewish argument against Jesus as Moshiach. I can provide links and my own arguments if needed.

Christians seem to think that because they believe Jesus to be Moshiach, any passage referring to the Moshiach in the OT AUTOMATICALLY refers to Jesus. It doesn’t work like that and any attempt to say otherwise seems to ignore even the most basic halachah and Jewish theology. It’s little better than trying to get a square peg in a round hole.

B’nei Noach are permitted to keep any of the 613 mitzvot given to the Jews with these exceptions:

1. Observing Shabbat in the same manner as the Jews;
2. Observing the Jewish holy days in the same manner as the Jews;
3. Studying the parts of the Mishnah/ Talmud that are not related to the B’nei Noach mitzvot;
4. Writing a Torah Scroll;
5. Receiving an aliyah;
6. Making, writing, or wearing tefillin

becomingjewish.org/7laws.html

I would think that a Messianic Rabbi would instruct them in this way - it still follows the seven laws of the Noahides.

I think the key term here is ‘in the same manner’. You can do something in many ways, and even Christians have their own form of Sabbath observance on Sundays with attendance at Mass/church, prayer services and the like.

As far as I’ve been told as a Bnei Noach, it is important to keep Shabbat as an important day where God is on our minds first and foremost. This doesn’t need or ask for Jewish Shabbat observance, but still keeps something of the reverence of Shabbat.

 

[convertprayerg]

I find it interesting that the most thoughtful and non-ignorant reply to this forum is from a person who lists Judaism as their religion. It is good to have this forum, we have questions. No Messianic Judaism is not Seventh Day Advent ism, but there is much common ground here. A newer categorization is “Jewish Roots”. We should not be surprised because the church came right out of Jewish Roots. Some say the Church has replaced Israel. Scott Hahn shows a progression. Being a both and kind of people Catholics might could recognize that God has a called out people. Maybe he is not the one who tries to label us and put us all in little labeled boxes. There is very much to learn from the Old Testament, The original bible that Jesus used. The only Bible Jesus had. I doubt that God has really thrown it all out. We Catholics revere the 10 commandments. Way back there we began meeting on Sunday. and the church hundreds of years ago told us not to keep Saturday. Does anyone know if that is De Fide doctrine or a rule like priests should not marry. that would be my question. Of course Messianic Judaism is more protestant. But I see no reason that Catholics can’t have an interest in Jewish Roots. I have heard Several Jewish roots speakers teach things much more like a catholic view of works and faith. Identical really. I have heard others who sound just like a baptist. One of those baptists tho is one of the few people who go and spread the gospel in Mexico NOW with the drug wars and everything. that family goes to small very very poor villages. and preaches Jesus. gives out food and clothes and tells them that Jesus Loves them. They are doing a “work” for the Lord. and we catholics should be prompted to go to these places that the church has rather neglected and ignored. We all should prompt each other to Jealosy in a good way to do right. People gravitate to other religions because their needs are not met in the one they are in. I have a son who is protestant in part because he found no other “serious about God” catholics at his university. He was quite lonely and the campus crusade group provided him with friends that he didnt find in the catholic group. and answers to his catholic guilt. He was told not to worry about it. once save always saved. only believe. The catholic answers to habitual sin left him really worried about his salvation. The protestants “assure” him that he is. or can be assured. perhaps not a good thing. Sin is a real problem. I have friends who in the early 90’s were Catholics and were disturbed by new agers being the head of catechism at their parish. A friend suggested a messianic congregation. they found their serious about God people there, and a rather ritualistic worship that appealed. they have been on that side ever since. Something is wrong and we should correct this “problem” of serious Catholics not finding friendship and bible study to challenge them in many places. We can learn much from the befriending and activities and the seriousness of our Bible believing, God serious protestant brothers and sisters. Any time anyone studies Gods word which is living and active and a two edged sword, things can happen if God is allowed to move in that study. The church can provide a fence for the playground. Studies that for some of the time allow people to share what has affected the members that week from the scripture allow God into the study and the people not just (God working or not) through the “teacher”. My parish has one of those and It is just another Sunday homily. I am out of town right now or I would start another bible study and prayer group to meet those needs.

 

[MorningSong51]

True, you could read and also make several determination based on those verses to describe a characteristic or several of the Moshiach - because to be really honest with you, that’s how the qualifications were determined, and the laws of Kings for example:

Samuel established the unity between tribes and also set up a legal system to determine cases - Bet Din and the Sanhedrin (70 elders chosen in Numbers 11:14-17 to assist Moses.) Also, Samuel - was the first to anoint a king, that being Saul then David. However, it was God - himself who made the determination to chose David as a King for Israel after He rejected Saul - but it was Samuel (the prophet) who had identified and anointed the king (the prophet, was to identify the Moshiach - part of the 13 principles), the scripture read, "Now the Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons.”

Out of that passage, we know that the King was chosen from God,Judah’s authority is described as given directly by God, who then being anointed with holy oil, even in spite of the fact that the elders had approached Samuel for a king to “rule over us”
(* In the Hebrew Bible messiahs are priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25.) Judah and the Joseph tribes both receive extensive blessings, suited to their pre-eminence, Judah’s as the major component of the Kingdom of Judah, and the Joseph tribes, in particular Ephraim, as the pre-eminent group in the Kingdom of Israel.

Also, another thought there are some movement and when speaking about the Messianic Era - have already made a determination that we are living in it, today. Would that mean that the Messiah was not to usher in an era of global peace? Was that not one of the requirement - you could be a Bnei Noach, but are you Orthodox? Which movement?

"At the head of the judiciary stands the high court which is also called the Great Sanhedrin. Its role and authority are discussed in detail in the Talmud and in halachic literature (see: Maimonides, Mishne Torah, Hilchot Sanhedrin and the beginning of Hilchot Mamrim). This is not true of the role of the king. Even though the Torah devotes six verses (Deut. 17:14-20) to the king, and the laws that govern his role are the subject of the second chapter in Tractate Sanhedrin and of chapters one and two in Maimonides’ Laws of Kings, our knowledge of this issue is still very limited.

What is the role of the king ? The Torah commands: “Appoint a king over you…”(Deut.17:15) [Note: the JPS version, “You shall be free to set a king over yourself,” is not in accord with the halachic understanding of this verse] and then goes on to tell us who is ineligible for the job - “You must not set a foreigner over you”(ibid.). Further on we read of limitations which are placed on the rights of the king: “He shall not keep many horses… he shall not have many wives… nor shall he amass silver and gold to excess”(ibid.,16-17). He is also enjoined to write a Torah scroll for himself so that it may be with him always, “So that he may learn to revere the Lord … Thus he will not act haughtily towards his fellows”(ibid., 19-20). And yet we have learned nothing of his powers or of his role." biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/shoftim/whar.html

I think the key term here is ‘in the same manner’. You can do something in many ways, and even Christians have their own form of Sabbath observance on Sundays with attendance at Mass/church, prayer services and the like.

As far as I’ve been told as a Bnei Noach, it is important to keep Shabbat as an important day where God is on our minds first and foremost. This doesn’t need or ask for Jewish Shabbat observance, but still keeps something of the reverence of Shabbat.

You’re giving me information that I didn’t ask for - as I know this already. What I am saying is that Christians, who are following Shabbat - on a Friday, can observe it but not fully like the Jews, as the Bnei Noah should know this. So when certain Christian groups criticize others that don’t observe it - they happen to be in the wrong. These Christian groups, with a Jewish twist, are not obligated. As for being a Bnei Noah, and only being required to the seven laws, based on Noah - would know this part.

Reference:
Parashat Shoftim
The Role of the King
Dr. Ittamar Warhaftig

The Faculty of Law
biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/shoftim/whar.html

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