Why do people who say they are Catholic continue to say so when they do not follow the teachings of the Catholic church?

[rinnie]

Totally off topic now, but I don’t get the whole health care situation in the USA anyway. I always thought it is a good thing. Here in Germany everybody has health care. If you’re poor and can’t afford it, the Government pays for your health care.

Having said that, Germany is becoming more and more a rich man, poor man society. If someone has private health care, he will immediately get an appointment with any doctor. If a person has Government health care, he is treated like a second class patient and sometimes has to wait for weeks…

Welcome to the good ole USA!! Here they are going after the weak. Of course they won’t admit it.

But it all about abortion and old people, simply because they cannot contribute money at this point in the game.

Today if a Old person has cancer they are in the process if it hasn’t happend yet, that they hae to wait for like 6-10 months to even get treated. Well needless to say, its too late then. But you are right we better get back on topic.

 

[rinnie]

I’m not so sure you should completely disagree, rin.

Again, I think the scenario was meant to infer the presence of all 3 qualifiers for mortal sin…the grave nature, full knowledge, full consent. And if those qualifiers are all in place, and if it is unrepented (which was also stipulated in the scenario), then the scenario is essentially accurate, no?

No because Steve alot of times when you miss Church it is not a direct sin against God in your mind. What I am saying is you don’t miss Church because you see as a direct shot at Christ. Hate to put it that way, but I believe you get what I am saying.

It would be like I am going to miss church today because I am just so tired, etc, and I know I should go, but today I just am going to skip. That is not the same as saying I am going to miss Mass inttentionally because I don’t care if it puts me in a state of sin. See what I mean,

ANd if you do miss Church and have gone all of your life and miss that one Holy Day and die you are not in a state of Mortal Sin. That is just not true. If you have been a faithful Christian all of your life, you would not do that or be in morral sin at death. See what I am saying.

 

[rinnie]

What I am saying is that if you continue to miss church on a regular basis it will become Moral sin. But if you only miss once, and that happens to be the Sunday you die you did not die in a state of Mortal sin.

Mortal sin is unrepentive sin that you commit over and over and do not repent.

God understands that we are human and sometimes we have venial sin. But I have never heard of a person going to Church for their whole life, and then one Sunday saying I am going to miss Church to be in direct conflict with God and separate my self deliberately from him today. There is no way the Church teaches that.

Yes repeated venial sin can become mortal sin when you continue to live in it, and refuse to repent. But I see this in no way being under that condition.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No because Steve alot of times when you miss Church it is not a direct sin against God in your mind. What I am saying is you don’t miss Church because you see as a direct shot at Christ. Hate to put it that way, but I believe you get what I am saying.

It would be like I am going to miss church today because I am just so tired, etc, and I know I should go, but today I just am going to skip. That is not the same as saying I am going to miss Mass inttentionally because I don’t care if it puts me in a state of sin. See what I mean,

ANd if you do miss Church and have gone all of your life and miss that one Holy Day and die you are not in a state of Mortal Sin. That is just not true. If you have been a faithful Christian all of your life, you would not do that or be in morral sin at death. See what I am saying.

Right, I have witnessed elder Catholics from the V-I era who are so consistant with weekly Mass and Holy Days of Obligation through the decades, that when they miss a Mass they don’t even view it as a Mortal Sin, they just believe at the next time they attend confession to confess. I have had this converstion with elders and out of respect I just let it go. But these are souls who are in the same pew week after week decade after decade.

In this regard I’ll still go to confession before communion. But that was a learned behavior with me. For a Devotion I go to confession the first five saturdays of the month of the church year in reparation of sinners. Then as I see fit or needed from that point.

I can remember my grandmother going to Mass daily. Her home was directly next to my parish at that time, so she also maintained a close friendship with the Sisters back then. The Priests were often there also for a meal or conversation. She had an alter my grandfather built in her home. Very different period in Catholic history. Which to a large degree I see Pope Benedict working back towards especially with the new missal this November 2011 and the comments he has made in relation to the West and faith.

 

[SteveGC]

What I am saying is that if you continue to miss church on a regular basis it will become Moral sin. But if you only miss once, and that happens to be the Sunday you die you did not die in a state of Mortal sin.

Mortal sin is unrepentive sin that you commit over and over and do not repent.

God understands that we are human and sometimes we have venial sin. But I have never heard of a person going to Church for their whole life, and then one Sunday saying I am going to miss Church to be in direct conflict with God and separate my self deliberately from him today. There is no way the Church teaches that.

Yes repeated venial sin can become mortal sin when you continue to live in it, and refuse to repent. But I see this in no way being under that condition.

I agree for the most part, rin.

All I’m saying is that because missing Mass just once is grave matter, that if an informed Catholic misses it deliberately, without a valid excuse, and dies unrepentant of that act, they will die in mortal sin. It only takes one instance of this for mortal sin to be present.

This is simply following the prescribed definition of mortal sin. Now, there are many valid reasons to miss Mass which would fully excuse culpability. I am not talking about these reasons. I am talking about someone who deliberately misses Mass when they easily could have gone.

I fully realize that the concept of “full consent” is a gray area. And I would submit that in the scenario where a person is devout all their life, and living a life as fully faithful to Christ as they know how, missing one Holy Day deliberately without a valid excuse would be next to impossible. BUT… it is not completely impossible.

In fact, going to Mass for that person can become a habit that is maintained concurrent with a lapsing faith. Obviously we do not know the heart of a person, whether it is aligned, or not aligned, with God. So our witnessing them going through the motions of Mass attendance and devotions is not a sufficient indicator that their missing a Holy Day once does not constitute mortal sin. One would have to ask oneself, why would an outwardly devout Catholic deliberately miss Mass without a valid reason? To me, it isn’t a stretch to presume that their heart had been progressively turning from God, despite the outward appearance of habitual Catholic virtue and obedience.

And if such a person misses Mass deliberately without valid reason, it is reasonable to presume they have mortal sin on their soul.

 

[Filippo_Bruno]

A slight change of subject – is anyone familiar with Chet Raymo, author of When God Is Gone Everything Is Holy? He styles himself an “agnostic Catholic” – he appreciates Catholic ritual and society while not believing theological dogma.

 

[rinnie]

I agree for the most part, rin.

All I’m saying is that because missing Mass just once is grave matter, that if an informed Catholic misses it deliberately, without a valid excuse, and dies unrepentant of that act, they will die in mortal sin. It only takes one instance of this for mortal sin to be present.

This is simply following the prescribed definition of mortal sin. Now, there are many valid reasons to miss Mass which would fully excuse culpability. I am not talking about these reasons. I am talking about someone who deliberately misses Mass when they easily could have gone.

I fully realize that the concept of “full consent” is a gray area. And I would submit that in the scenario where a person is devout all their life, and living a life as fully faithful to Christ as they know how, missing one Holy Day deliberately without a valid excuse would be next to impossible. BUT… it is not completely impossible.

In fact, going to Mass for that person can become a habit that is maintained concurrent with a lapsing faith. Obviously we do not know the heart of a person, whether it is aligned, or not aligned, with God. So our witnessing them going through the motions of Mass attendance and devotions is not a sufficient indicator that their missing a Holy Day once does not constitute mortal sin. One would have to ask oneself, why would an outwardly devout Catholic deliberately miss Mass without a valid reason? To me, it isn’t a stretch to presume that their heart had been progressively turning from God, despite the outward appearance of habitual Catholic virtue and obedience.

And if such a person misses Mass deliberately without valid reason, it is reasonable to presume they have mortal sin on their soul.

Lets get back to what was said, It was said that if a dedicated Roman Catholic goes to Church every SUnday for their whole life, and then just missed ONE MASS they are in a state of Mortal sin, I said I disagree and I still disagree that this is true.

We are told that we MUST go to Mass in order to fulfill our Moral Obligation to God. BUT what I am saying is missing ONE Mass either a Holy Day or Regular Sunday without a valid excuse will not put you into a state of mortal sin. Venial sin, Yes.

Venial sin is what is the StART of Mortal sin, Now if you Miss Sunday Mass and then continue to miss Mass on a regular basis then this venial sin CAN become a Mortal sin.

It is just someone taking the teaching of the Pope and of course blowing it out of proportion which always happens and interprets it thier way, not the way it is taught.

Is it a mortal sin to not attend regular Mass and Holy days, Yes it is, but is it a sin to MISS ONE, No that is not written.

Now its time to fest up and produce the evidence that I have asked for.

I need to see the teaching that claims if you miss ONE Mass or Holy Day without a good excuse you have put your soul in Moral danger. Thats all I am asking, If I see it, I will recant all I have said.

 

[SteveGC]

Lets get back to what was said, It was said that if a dedicated Roman Catholic goes to Church every SUnday for their whole life, and then just missed ONE MASS they are in a state of Mortal sin, I said I disagree and I still disagree that this is true.

We are told that we MUST go to Mass in order to fulfill our Moral Obligation to God. BUT what I am saying is missing ONE Mass either a Holy Day or Regular Sunday without a valid excuse will not put you into a state of mortal sin. Venial sin, Yes.

Venial sin is what is the StART of Mortal sin, Now if you Miss Sunday Mass and then continue to miss Mass on a regular basis then this venial sin CAN become a Mortal sin.

It is just someone taking the teaching of the Pope and of course blowing it out of proportion which always happens and interprets it thier way, not the way it is taught.

Is it a mortal sin to not attend regular Mass and Holy days, Yes it is, but is it a sin to MISS ONE, No that is not written.

Now its time to fest up and produce the evidence that I have asked for.

I need to see the teaching that claims if you miss ONE Mass or Holy Day without a good excuse you have put your soul in Moral danger. Thats all I am asking, If I see it, I will recant all I have said.

Hi again, rin. While we probably won’t find explicit words that specifically and exactly say “just one instance is all that is needed”, I think one would have to be somewhat dishonest with one’s self to claim that the following teaching does not infer that it only takes one instance of disobedience of the Sunday obligation (bolded terms and phrases are my emphasis) :

*Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Sunday obligation

2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.*

*2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ’s Resurrection on the “eighth day,” Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord’s Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 “Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church” (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass” (CIC, can. 1247).*

Can we really argue here that the Church is inferring that we have to deliberately and invalidly miss more than one Mass for grave sin to occur? I really don’t think so, rin.

Peace to you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Lets get back to what was said, It was said that if a dedicated Roman Catholic goes to Church every SUnday for their whole life, and then just missed ONE MASS they are in a state of Mortal sin, I said I disagree and I still disagree that this is true.

We are told that we MUST go to Mass in order to fulfill our Moral Obligation to God. BUT what I am saying is missing ONE Mass either a Holy Day or Regular Sunday without a valid excuse will not put you into a state of mortal sin. Venial sin, Yes.

Venial sin is what is the StART of Mortal sin, Now if you Miss Sunday Mass and then continue to miss Mass on a regular basis then this venial sin CAN become a Mortal sin.

It is just someone taking the teaching of the Pope and of course blowing it out of proportion which always happens and interprets it thier way, not the way it is taught.

Is it a mortal sin to not attend regular Mass and Holy days, Yes it is, but is it a sin to MISS ONE, No that is not written.

Now its time to fest up and produce the evidence that I have asked for.

I need to see the teaching that claims if you miss ONE Mass or Holy Day without a good excuse you have put your soul in Moral danger. Thats all I am asking, If I see it, I will recant all I have said.

Where does it say that missing one Mass is a venial sin, and missing more than one (that is two, three, etc.) makes the venial change to mortal?

How can it be all right to miss “one” Mass but not two?

Are there any other sins where you get a ‘freebie’ for the first? I mean, can one lie once (and we’re talking grave matter, like say lying about inside trading), and that’s only a venial sin, but if we lie twice, suddenly THEN it’s mortal?

Or it’s all right to have sex outside of marriage just once, but if you do it more than once, it’s a mortal sin?

 

[rinnie]

Where does it say that missing one Mass is a venial sin, and missing more than one (that is two, three, etc.) makes the venial change to mortal?

How can it be all right to miss “one” Mass but not two?

Are there any other sins where you get a ‘freebie’ for the first? I mean, can one lie once (and we’re talking grave matter, like say lying about inside trading), and that’s only a venial sin, but if we lie twice, suddenly THEN it’s mortal?

Or it’s all right to have sex outside of marriage just once, but if you do it more than once, it’s a mortal sin?

Because what Matt said is taking the commandment of God in my opinion and blowing it all out of proportion. You can agree with what it is saying but I am sorry I do not.

He said if you go to church every single holy day of your life, and then you do miss a holy day and do not confess to your bishop and you die you are going to hell because you are in a state of mortal sin.

I truly believe that he is blowing our faith and the teachings of the RCC way of of proportion.

We have a merciful God and I am sure that we all may have some kind of unrepented sin in our life that we forget about and if there was a time in our life that we did miss Mass and would die we are not going to be comdenned to hell, and I do not feel the Church teaches this.

To begin with if we miss mass in order to make it an mortal sin it has to be a deliberate sin in our mind against God. So if I miss Church this Sunday, say because I am just too tired, or whatever the fact may be, and I have not missed Church or a Holy Day in like 20 years and I would die that Sunday I do not feel I am in a state of Mortal sin.

As I stated while I agree that we are not to miss Church and the Eucharist for obvious reasons if we do miss it, it is not a deliverate shot against our Lord.

There are valid excuses to miss Church. Sometimes your body is just so exhausted and weak and you do find yourself being human and giving into human sin and failing to live up your obigation to God.

But if you die and you were a faithful Catholic all of your life, and just slipped just that once and did not make it to confession I believe with my whole heart and soul that being the merciful God that he is, he will understand and not send us to hell.

I was always taught in order to be in a state of Mortal sin it has to be a deliberate act of sinning against God in your mind. If I have a morning that I would miss Church I can was told that I could fulfill that obligation other ways. Like I could hit a daily Mass during the week. Or do something to make up for it, like maybe spend extra time in prayer. etc.

But to say that I was a faithful Catholic, continued to go to mass my whole life, every sunday, every holy day, and then just that one day miss a Holy Day or Sunday I have died in mortal sin and will go to hell, I do not see this. Maybe Matt is right and you guys are right and I am wrong. I am just saying I don;t see that:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

Where does it say that missing one Mass is a venial sin, and missing more than one (that is two, three, etc.) makes the venial change to mortal?

How can it be all right to miss “one” Mass but not two?

Are there any other sins where you get a ‘freebie’ for the first? I mean, can one lie once (and we’re talking grave matter, like say lying about inside trading), and that’s only a venial sin, but if we lie twice, suddenly THEN it’s mortal?

Or it’s all right to have sex outside of marriage just once, but if you do it more than once, it’s a mortal sin?

Because its really hard for me to believe that a Catholic who never missed Mass in their life, and then for some reason or another misses Sunday Mass would miss Mass and with all of the reasons to make it a mortal sin. Forgive me but I don’t see this.

And forgive me and I can be wrong but I do see missing Mass one sunday in your life alot more forgiving then sleeping with someone elses husband or wife.

I believe God knows a heart and if I died today and missed Sunday Mass for the first time in like 30 years and had to die with that sin one me, I would rather have it on me then commiting adulterty with anothers husband or wife.

Maybe you are right and God see’s all mortal sin as the same but I do not feel that is the teaching of the Church.

 

[GEddie]

Because its really hard for me to believe that a Catholic who never missed Mass in their life, and then for some reason or another misses Sunday Mass would miss Mass and with all of the reasons to make it a mortal sin. Forgive me but I don’t see this.

And forgive me and I can be wrong but I do see missing Mass one sunday in your life alot more forgiving then sleeping with someone elses husband or wife.

I believe God knows a heart and if I died today and missed Sunday Mass for the first time in like 30 years and had to die with that sin one me, I would rather have it on me then commiting adulterty with anothers husband or wife.

Maybe you are right and God see’s all mortal sin as the same but I do not feel that is the teaching of the Church.

The problem with “feeling” is that it cannot tell us much about the truth outside of ourself.

God gave the keys to S. Peter and his successors. Not to anybody’s feelings.

ICXC NIKA

 

[rinnie]

The problem with “feeling” is that it cannot tell us much about the truth outside of ourself.

God gave the keys to S. Peter and his successors. Not to anybody’s feelings.

ICXC NIKA

Trust me. I am NOT disgreeing that it is a mortal sin to miss Church and Holy Days of Obligation.

What I AM SAYING is GOd knows a heart. And I have never heard the Church claim that if we as Catholics did MISS ONE day of Mass that we are condemned to hell. That is what I am seeing in the post of Matt.

What I am saying is ANY sin can become MORTAL sin and could send you to hell at the moment of your death is you do not repent and are not sorry for that sin.

Please try to understand what my POINT is here. I am not trying to undermind the teachings of the RCC. I believe in them with my whole heart and soul.

BUt what I am saying if a person was RC all of their life, and missed Church for whatever reason even if it was not a Legit one. HOW could he not feel repentive in his heart.

What I am saying is this. There is ONE time in my life that I missed Church not because I could not make it, I was on Vacation and too lazy to get up and go. And the WHOLE day I felt guilty and sorry for it. Not because I felt that I was deliverately sinning against God, and it would keep me from entering heaven. but because I missed the GET ME THROUGH THE WEEK FEELING that the Eucharist gave me. I missed the blessing and entrance of Christ in my soul.

ANY Catholic can relate to this, if you miss Church for any reason, you feel like ****. That feeling like ****. That feeling in itself is our own guilt which means we are feeling repentive in our heart. ANd what I am saying is GOD knows that. He knows a heart, and even if we did not make it to confession and were on our way home from lets say that vacation, It is not wrong to believe we can rely on his mercy and his ability to know a heart. That is what I am saying.

That is why I do not agree with Matt if we are faithfull and miss one Sunday and die before confessing to a Bishop as he stated that it is mortal sin and we are in danger of going to hell. I don’t believe this. I do not see this a personal REJECTION of God. That is what Mortal sin is, doing something with the attitude of I KNOW I am putting myself before God but don’t care and am doing it anyway. I do not see missing Church once in a great while as doing this.

So what I am saying is its not for Matt to condemn us to hell, he does not know a heart, ITs God’s job, and I feel that I can rely on his mercy.

And I disagree I believe we do know what our true feelings and reason are, and we cannot fool ourself or God.

 

[rinnie]

Okay let me put this another way, And unfortunately this is the gospel truth as they say.

My Mother has never missed Church in her life unless she was sick or had to take care of us as kids and we were sick.

Now it was 3 years in March that my Dad died. When she enters into Church now, and sees the Knights of Columbus she is having anxiety attacks because she misses my Papa so much because he was so faithful to the Church and begins to make herself sick now every Sunday, REALLY sick because she does not want to face this problem.

I won’t let her get away with this. I told her she needs to find a way to face this and get over it and it can only be with the Grace of God.

Now for the last 6 months she is now heading to Church on a regular basis. But probally twice a year she will have what she calls a bad Sunday or say she was sick when I know she wasn’t.

If she was that sick she could not go out to dinner or elseware. Do you see my point. GOD knows and understands this. Is she correct, is the right, NO.

But if she would die and miss Church I know God understands even though she is letting the FEAR and ANXIETY that the devil is playing on to stop her from Church. He knows her LOVE for him and will find a way to forgive her if she has another bad Sunday. Thats what I am saying.

Unless as Matt stated and then you must agree that if she lets the anxiety and fear overpower her on a Sunday and does not make it to the Priest and confess her anxiety and fear and overcome it she is going to hell.

You can’t have it both ways either. So what is your answer to this?

If she does not completely beat this anxiety and fear before her death and a couple times a year misses Mass but continues to work through this, she is going to hell? Yes or No?

 

[SteveGC]

Rinn,

I think the disconnect here is a mutual understanding of the scenario.

We can agree on this I think…to die with unrepented mortal sin is condemnation of the soul.

And we can also agree…to knowingly miss one Mass without valid reason is mortal sin. Yes? This would cover the concept of “deliberately”, by the way.

Ok…so, the logical conclusion is…to miss one Mass without valid reason and die unrepentant condemns the soul.

Reasonable?

Now, here’s where we’re drifting away…the scenario of a certain individual, his reasons for missing Mass, the intent of his heart, the outward appearance vs. inward reality of his conscience and faith.

For the bolded part above to be true, the scenario would have to be something along the lines as follows:

• the individual did not have a valid reason. Lazy and tired, as far as I know, is not a valid reason, unless it’s somehow medically debilitating. Being sick, caring for a sick person or a person in danger, not having reasonable access to Mass, legitimately forgetting Mass times without apathy for remembering…these are some valid reasons (among others).
• now, the tough part. The individuals inner faith and disposition toward God. Well, if that is properly established, then the contention would be that this person would NOT miss Mass without valid reason. And if they did, it is most likely that the disposition is not properly established…OR…it is almost certain they would indeed be repentant and seek sacramental confession.

As far as I was concerned in my above posts, I was not talking about a person who is properly disposed toward God AND repentant for missing Mass without valid reason. They DO need to get to confession, however. But, if that sort of person died on the way to confession, it is highly plausible to believe that God’s Mercy would act outside the sacrament and absolve him.

But, what we’re saying here is that a person who goes to Mass every Sunday and HDOs for 30 years straight, then misses one Sunday deliberately, without a valid reason, without repentance, is in mortal sin, and, if we follow Church teaching on the matter, will be condemned if they die without repentance. Now, I agree with you…such a person who is outwardly that devout for 30 years is not at all likely to be the sort of individual we are talking about here. So, it’s basically an irrational scenario to begin with.

The only point I was making in a post above was that just because we see someone at Mass and at devotions for 30 years straight is no hard evidence where his heart truly is, and if it is hardened, and all he’s doing is going to these things out of sheer habit, then perhaps his fate is already negatively sealed, even if he dies without ever missing a Mass. We just simply don’t know by outward observations.

Peace.

 

[rinnie]

Let me make this easy on what I believe and then I can be corrected if I am right or wrong.

Lets say as I stated I miss church for no good valid reason. AM I at RISK of putting myself into the state of MORTAL SIN? Yes I am.

But in order to be IN a state of MORTAL sin many things must exist.

Now if I miss Church and FEEL that I am doing this directly and honestly in order to separate myself from Christ YES its mortal sin.

But if I miss a SUNDAY and do not do it with full consent and knowledge with the intent to separate myself from God how can it be moral sin of the soul? Thats what I am asking.

Does certain things not have to be present, and is missing Church mean that you were in your mind TRYING to separate yourself from God and that was the reason for missing Church.

This is what I am trying to say, If you know you must attend mass but continue to miss Mass because you really do not care if you separate yourself from God you have the intent to separate yourself from God.

But if you miss Mass, but in your heart you did not intend to PUT yourself into mortal sin, is it Full Intent to separate yourself from God. That is what I am asking here.

But for some reason I cannot get my point across.

Full intend does not mean you missed Mass on purpose, that is not mortal sin. Is Mortal sin not when you choose to TOTALLY SEPARATE YOURSELF from God and if that is the REASON you missed Mass it become mortal and death of the soul.

Does Reason and full intend not have to exist for a sin to be Mortal. So you are saying if I just miss a SUNDAY my intention is to separate myself from God forever. See what I am saying.

If I miss but I am not seeing it EVER as trying to separate myself from God and I do miss, am I in Moral sin?

 

[SteveGC]

Well, let’s see what I can offer here, rinn…

If one desires to separate one’s self from God, then that in and of itself is mortal sin. Missing Mass need not even enter the equation. Indeed, as I posited before, they could obey every moral law to the letter all their life, and they still condemn themselves. Of course, it’s not a plausible scenario, for why would they obey the law but desire separation. So, it seems a moot point, at least very highly unlikely. However, of course the Pharisees…well, you get my drift.

Now, I’m not so certain one must have the specific intent to permanently separate one’s self from God in order for mortal sin to occur. Let’s agree on something here though…

If someone misses Mass deliberately, without valid reason, and unrepentant of it…what exactly IS their intent in that moment? Is it to be aligned with God? Remember, we’re talking about deliberate…withOUT valid reason…and UNrepentant. To me, in that moment, that person desires to be separate from God. And in that moment, if they die, they will get their wish…condemnation. They need not have had the intent to permanently separate from God…but that’s the state of affairs in which we exist, in this fallen world. We must watch closely the state of our alignment with God, never let our guard down…it’s that easy to fall and be separated. Death can arrive at any moment, even while I’m writing this…and if I die with a TRUE and PURE intent to separate myself from God, even for an instant, and I die IN THAT INSTANT, my understanding from Mother Church is that I will condemn myself.

That is how it is possible to miss Mass just once and condemn oneself.

 

[rinnie]

Hello Lui, I will take a stab at what I think will be the answer as to how they know a person will go to hell if they die in mortal sin.

I am not sure what the Holy Days of Obligation are in Germany. Here in the states where I live, lets say I did not obey my bishop and missed a Holy Day of Obligation. Lets say the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary on a Thursday December 8. This would be a mortal sin according to the Catholic Church. So if I do not repent in my heart for missing this one Thursday Mass prior to taking my last breath, even if I had never missed another Mass in my life and had otherwise lived as exemplary a life as possible for a human being, they will I think say I will go to hell. They will say they are not judging me. That it is just a warning to me as if I were being told not to jump off a cliff. That they are not saying I will definitely go to hell. Only that I will, if I die without repenting in my heart this disobedience of my bishop of not attending Mass on the Thursday in my scenario. But that they do not know if I will have done so or not. At least this is how I have had it explained to me previously. God bless and peace!

Right here is what I am talking about this is a total misintrepation of the Church teaching of mortal sin.

CCC 1861. The last line states although we can JUDGE an ACT in itself is a grave offense. (as I stated I do not disgree with this) But lets continue on to the Church teaching of Mortal sin, we MUST entrust JUDGEMENT of Person to the justice and mercy of God.

He is totally mis-representing the teaching of the Church. Which I have stated maybe me missing CHurch is indeed the right of the Church to judge as being a Moral sin in inself. I agree with it also.

BUT And this is a BIG BUT we cannot judge the act and the mind of the act if we are not the person committing the act, its up to them and God to sort this out.

Matt is saying the CHurch is playing God and reading the mind of the person and God. This is what I am saying.

Yes Mortal sin CAN separate us from God, But while we can judge an ACT we MUST entrust Judgement TO GOD.

 

[SteveGC]

Right here is what I am talking about this is a total misintrepation of the Church teaching of mortal sin.

CCC 1861. The last line states although we can JUDGE an ACT in itself is a grave offense. (as I stated I do not disgree with this) But lets continue on to the Church teaching of Mortal sin, we MUST entrust JUDGEMENT of Person to the justice and mercy of God.

He is totally mis-representing the teaching of the Church. Which I have stated maybe me missing CHurch is indeed the right of the Church to judge as being a Moral sin in inself. I agree with it also.

BUT And this is a BIG BUT we cannot judge the act and the mind of the act if we are not the person committing the act, its up to them and God to sort this out.

Matt is saying the CHurch is playing God and reading the mind of the person and God. This is what I am saying.

Yes Mortal sin CAN separate us from God, But while we can judge an ACT we MUST entrust Judgement TO GOD.

With respect, Rinn…I don’t see where CMatt is inferring that the Church is playing God. He acknowledges that the Church does not know the inner disposition of the person, only the formula for mortal sin. I don’t see an error in his post, although it is very incomplete…considering the many factors you and I are currently discussing, which are critical to the issue.

 

[rinnie]

Well, let’s see what I can offer here, rinn…

If one desires to separate one’s self from God, then that in and of itself is mortal sin. Missing Mass need not even enter the equation. Indeed, as I posited before, they could obey every moral law to the letter all their life, and they still condemn themselves. Of course, it’s not a plausible scenario, for why would they obey the law but desire separation. So, it seems a moot point, at least very highly unlikely. However, of course the Pharisees…well, you get my drift.

Now, I’m not so certain one must have the specific intent to permanently separate one’s self from God in order for mortal sin to occur. Let’s agree on something here though…

If someone misses Mass deliberately, without valid reason, and unrepentant of it…what exactly IS their intent in that moment? Is it to be aligned with God? Remember, we’re talking about deliberate…withOUT valid reason…and UNrepentant. To me, in that moment, that person desires to be separate from God. And in that moment, if they die, they will get their wish…condemnation. They need not have had the intent to permanently separate from God…but that’s the state of affairs in which we exist, in this fallen world. We must watch closely the state of our alignment with God, never let our guard down…it’s that easy to fall and be separated. Death can arrive at any moment, even while I’m writing this…and if I die with a TRUE and PURE intent to separate myself from God, even for an instant, and I die IN THAT INSTANT, my understanding from Mother Church is that I will condemn myself.

That is how it is possible to miss Mass just once and condemn oneself.

This is more or less what Matt is saying and I don’t see the Church teaching this. You are like Matt judging the person then not the act of the sin. You are saying that if I miss Church I am condemned myself before God and myself when you don’t know my heart or Gods mercy.

Do you see what I am saying?