Why do people who say they are Catholic continue to say so when they do not follow the teachings of the Catholic church?

[SteveGC]

This is more or less what Matt is saying and I don’t see the Church teaching this. You are like Matt judging the person then not the act of the sin. You are saying that if I miss Church I am condemned myself before God and myself when you don’t know my heart or Gods mercy.

Do you see what I am saying?

No Rinnie.

I am not suggesting that I know anything about someone else. I am assuming here the different scenarios, and postulating that IF someone had such-and-such an inner disposition.

OF COURSE we don’t know if we’re not that someone. That’s a given. My discussion up to this point (and beyond) never assumes that I myself know the state of grace of ANYONE.

BUT…

we’ve all been taught the formula for mortal sin, and that’s what I’m talking about in these scenarios of other people. I’m saying that IF…IF…such-and-such a person’s disposition and behavior is “X”, and “X” matches the formula for which the Church teaches is mortally sinful, then they are at risk of condemnation if they die in the state of “X”.

Again, I am not saying that I myself (nor you, nor anyone, nor the Church Herself) can know if “X” in someone is actually occurring or not.

Neither myself, nor even CMATT, actually ever said as much.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Hello Lui, I will take a stab at what I think will be the answer as to how they know a person will go to hell if they die in mortal sin.

I am not sure what the Holy Days of Obligation are in Germany. Here in the states where I live, lets say I did not obey my bishop and missed a Holy Day of Obligation. Lets say the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary on a Thursday December 8. This would be a mortal sin according to the Catholic Church. So if I do not repent in my heart for missing this one Thursday Mass prior to taking my last breath, even if I had never missed another Mass in my life and had otherwise lived as exemplary a life as possible for a human being,[SIGN] they will I think say I will go to hell.[/SIGN] They will say they are not judging me. That it is just a warning to me as if I were being told not to jump off a cliff. That they are not saying I will definitely go to hell. Only that I will, if I die without repenting in my heart this disobedience of my bishop of not attending Mass on the Thursday in my scenario. But that they do not know if I will have done so or not. At least this is how I have had it explained to me previously. God bless and peace!

He said that the Church teaches that if a person misses Sunday or Holy Day and forget or do not repent the sin he thinks that we say they WILL GO TO HELL.

If he is not saying that the Church is saying they will go to hell, then I am wrong.

I am seeing him say if we do not repent this sin before a Priest before we die, we are saying he is going to hell, even if we don’t know if he did it our not?

 

[rinnie]

No Rinnie.

I am not suggesting that I know anything about someone else. I am assuming here the different scenarios, and postulating that IF someone had such-and-such an inner disposition.

OF COURSE we don’t know if we’re not that someone. That’s a given. My discussion up to this point (and beyond) never assumes that I myself know the state of grace of ANYONE.

BUT…

we’ve all been taught the formula for mortal sin, and that’s what I’m talking about in these scenarios of other people. I’m saying that IF…IF…such-and-such a person’s disposition and behavior is “X”, and “X” matches the formula for which the Church teaches is mortally sinful, then they are at risk of condemnation if they die in the state of “X”.

Again, I am not saying that I myself (nor you, nor anyone, nor the Church Herself) can know if “X” in someone is actually occurring or not.

Neither myself, nor even CMATT, actually ever said as much.

See Steve back to the true point of Catholic teaching yes are at RISK. Do you see what I am saying. If you are putting yourself at RISK does not mean you are IN a state of SIN. It means you could be in a STATE of sin. Only you and GOD know whats going on here/

The Church has the right and does fully exercise the right to help us know which sins CAN put us at RISK. But they have never said if you miss Church you are IN a STATE OF unrepented Mortal sin and are going to hell is you did not make it to a Priest.

Just like if I die right after an affair and was truly sorry and could not get to a Priest to repent my sin, I am indeed at RISK and can be in a state of Mortal sin and not be forgiven by God, this is true. Its his call. BUT he can also forgive me, if he chooses or HE can condemn me to mortal death. He knows my heart.

But the Church only teaches what sin CAN put you at RISK for death of the soul, does not mean God will not extend you his mercy if you are sorry.

 

[SteveGC]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

He said that the Church teaches that if a person misses Sunday or Holy Day and forget or do not repent the sin he thinks that we say they WILL GO TO HELL.

If he is not saying that the Church is saying they will go to hell, then I am wrong.

I am seeing him say if we do not repent this sin before a Priest before we die, we are saying he is going to hell, even if we don’t know if he did it our not?

I acknowledge that the way in which CMatt describes the guidance from the Church is quite inferior. Nothing official ever says “you will go to hell”. But the essence of his understanding is still basically correct.

I think we have to go back to a foundational premise, Rinn. That is, if we die with mortal sin, i.e. without saving grace, we will go to Hell. Can we agree on this?

If so, then mortal sin is mortal sin. Yes, there are the 3 criteria for making it mortal sin. But, once we have them in place, mortal sin exists, and dying in that instant condemns a man.

OK…Missing Mass can be a mortal sin. It isn’t automatically, in every instance, of course. All 3 criteria must be met. It’s already grave matter, so all that’s needed is full knowledge and full consent. Full knowledge for a Catholic is basically in place. So, what we’re talking about is full consent. That’s all there is left to make it mortal. The Church teaches that only valid reasons keep it from being full consent. And there are many. But the inference is that if the reason is not valid, then in that instant of choice, one is deliberately choosing to turn from God…atleast in that instant. Now, how long they remain in that deliberate turning from God is dependent on the repentance in their heart, and perhaps, their success in getting to confession with that repentance (we know God can work outside the sacrament, of course, if He chooses).

Ok, so what I’m saying here is that if an informed Catholic misses the Sunday obligation on purpose, with no valid reason, (which only they and God really know), then they are not merely AT RISK of mortal sin. They are truly and definitively IN mortal sin. Now, as soon as they become repentant of that sin, then it is debatable exactly when they have recovered the state of grace and remove the mortal sin from their soul. We can say it is right away, or we can say it is likely that they would have to go to confession. But, until they are repentant in their heart, they are not AT RISK of mortal sin…they are IN IT. That’s not judgment Rinn, it is merely the formula taught by the Church. We don’t apply the formula to anyone specifically. We’re just using scenarios about any given individual who possesses these types of inner dispositions and acts on them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is more or less what Matt is saying and I don’t see the Church teaching this. You are like Matt judging the person then not the act of the sin. You are saying that if I miss Church I am condemned myself before God and myself when you don’t know my heart or Gods mercy.

Do you see what I am saying?

Maybe if we depersonalize it. . .because the Church does teach that missing Mass on Sunday except for a grave reason is mortally sinful.

We agree on that, right?

Now, here’s the other part. For mortal sin to exist you need 3 things: Full knowledge, grave matter, full consent.

So missing on Sunday (except with really good reason) IS the grave matter.

But you still need the full knowledge and full consent.

Now you seem, Rinnie, to be arguing that even WITH full knowledge and full consent it isn’t necessarily a sin because even though you knew it and did it you ‘feel sorry’. With respect, 'FEELING BAD" doesn’t change a mortal sin to a venial one.

What ‘feeling sorry’ about the mortal sin (and we’ll say it’s missing Mass without good reason) does is put the person into a state of contrition whereby IF he died before making a sacramental confession God MIGHT forgive him, whereas if he didn’t have contrition he would be rejecting God forever.

Everybody has been, I think, at pains to say that it is UNREPENTED mortal sin at death which is the criterion for choosing hell.

Rinnie, what if a person has been a ‘good Catholic’ all his life, decides to miss Mass because he just doesn’t want to go, knows he should, has no reason not to, but just says, Oh I know and accept this is gravely wrong but I just won’t do it. . doesn’t feel bad, in fact thinks he’s entitled to skip if he wants to. . .and dies.

We can HOPE in the last second he feels sorry, but if he doesn’t, then it doesn’t matter that this is only ONE mortal sin in a life of ‘goodness’ or that this particular mortal sin doesn’t ‘look’ as bad as fornication or murder. It’s still mortal sin. You’re just as ‘dead’ if you die from a tiny cut that turns septic as if you were beheaded, or chopped into pieces bit by bit. You aren’t less dead or more dead!

 

[SteveGC]

The Church has the right and does fully exercise the right to help us know which sins CAN put us at RISK. But they have never said if you miss Church you are IN a STATE OF unrepented Mortal sin and are going to hell is you did not make it to a Priest.

CMatt didn’t say this. He said that if you miss Mass without valid reason and are unrepentant of it, then you are in mortal sin and go to hell if you die in that state. This is correct teaching.

But the Church only teaches what sin CAN put you at RISK for death of the soul, does not mean God will not extend you his mercy if you are sorry.

Correct. The Church does not ever tell a specific person if they themselves indeed have mortal sin on their soul. They simply teach the formula for it, so that we can know if we possess it. And if they ever used the crass phraseology, “you will go to hell”, it simply means that IF you have done the things which meet the formula for mortal sin and die unrepentant, you will condemn yourself. This is true.

 

[rinnie]

CMatt didn’t say this. He said that if you miss Mass without valid reason and are unrepentant of it, then you are in mortal sin and go to hell if you die in that state. This is correct teaching.
Correct. The Church does not ever tell a specific person if they themselves indeed have mortal sin on their soul. They simply teach the formula for it, so that we can know if we possess it. And if they ever used the crass phraseology, “you will go to hell”, it simply means that IF you have done the things which meet the formula for mortal sin and die unrepentant, you will condemn yourself. This is true.

Again where did he mention VALID reason. That is what I am saying in my eyes I truly understand and relate to what My Mom is saying, and in my heart I believe that God understands also. But on the outside I cannot say Oh its cool Mom, God understands.

While I BELIEVE God understands she still needs to continue to receive the Eucharist on a weekly basis to become one in Christ with Christ once more.

Is her reason valid, In the eyes of many Yes, others NO. But what counts is God.

But lets say I missed a Holy Day simply forgot. To this day don’t even realize I forgot it. So it is indeed a unrepented sin, according to what Matt is saying and because I missed it I am going to hell.

Those were his words if we miss ONE holy day and do not repent it we are going to hell.

Every single sin has condtions and reason known only to the person and God. All the Church can do is judge an act is in itself as a grave offense as I stated, but we MUST entrust the judgement to God.

1864 Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven by men except against the Holy Spirit.

There are NO LIMITs to the mercy of God, Now here is my point anyone who DELIVERATELY REFUSES of accept the mercy of God by repenting rejects the mercy of Salvation by the Holy Spirit.

Now here is what I saying there is a big difference from having a unrepented sin on us, and REFUSING to repent a sin.

 

[rinnie]

My point is I believe that he is not teaching mortal sin and danger of the soul in the context of the teaching of the Church.

For us to be separated from God in Mortal sin we refuse his grace and refuse to repent when we have sinned against God.

I cannot see how a Christian who has been faithful all of his life missing one Mass is in a state of Mortal sin and would refuse to repent if he felt he was in Mortal death of his soul.

 

[rinnie]

Maybe if we depersonalize it. . .because the Church does teach that missing Mass on Sunday except for a grave reason is mortally sinful.

We agree on that, right?

Now, here’s the other part. For mortal sin to exist you need 3 things: Full knowledge, grave matter, full consent.

So missing on Sunday (except with really good reason) IS the grave matter.

But you still need the full knowledge and full consent.

Now you seem, Rinnie, to be arguing that even WITH full knowledge and full consent it isn’t necessarily a sin because even though you knew it and did it you ‘feel sorry’. With respect, 'FEELING BAD" doesn’t change a mortal sin to a venial one.

What ‘feeling sorry’ about the mortal sin (and we’ll say it’s missing Mass without good reason) does is put the person into a state of contrition whereby IF he died before making a sacramental confession God MIGHT forgive him, whereas if he didn’t have contrition he would be rejecting God forever.

Everybody has been, I think, at pains to say that it is UNREPENTED mortal sin at death which is the criterion for choosing hell.

Rinnie, what if a person has been a ‘good Catholic’ all his life, decides to miss Mass because he just doesn’t want to go, knows he should, has no reason not to, but just says, Oh I know and accept this is gravely wrong but I just won’t do it. . doesn’t feel bad, in fact thinks he’s entitled to skip if he wants to. . .and dies.

We can HOPE in the last second he feels sorry, but if he doesn’t, then it doesn’t matter that this is only ONE mortal sin in a life of ‘goodness’ or that this particular mortal sin doesn’t ‘look’ as bad as fornication or murder. It’s still mortal sin. You’re just as ‘dead’ if you die from a tiny cut that turns septic as if you were beheaded, or chopped into pieces bit by bit. You aren’t less dead or more dead!

I guess we just have to agree to disagee on this. I just don’t see this one case as putting oneself in that state as you describe. I try and try but don’t see it. And don’t see the Church teaching this either. I am trying I just can’t see it.

If a good Catholic felt they would go to hell forever for missing Church they would never miss. EVER. While I agree is can lead to death of the soul to leave the Church missing one Sunday just don’t cut it in my book. I can;t see it.

 

[SteveGC]

Rinnie,

You’re arguing against things that we are not arguing against.

You are asking how someone of strong, life-long faith can deliberately miss Mass to the point of it being mortal sin, as if we’re suggesting that it’s possible for someone of strong faith to do that. I’m not saying that. I agree, as I’ve said numerous times, that it is a nearly impossible scenario to imagine. If such a person DID miss Mass, it would almost assuredly be for valid reasons, or would atleast be immediately repentant…so it’s not really worth debating over this type of scenario. You see, in that kind of case, we’re going with the premise that somehow we know the person’s heart is properly aligned with God…and so, if that is the case, then for them to miss Mass for an invalid reason really isn’t a rational scenario. We’re not talking about someone who truly does have proper disposition toward God.

And remember Rin, I thought we were talking about a hypothetical individual whose inner heart and disposition is unknown to us. You’re claiming that we’re suggesting mortal sin is absolutely present in someone who we somehow KNOW all along maintains a proper disposition toward God. That’s not what we’re claiming. You’re saying we can’t know if a person’s heart is in rejection (which is true), but then you’re making claims in the scenario based on a knowledge that their heart is properly aligned. We have to keep the discussion neutral and equal, Rinn. You and I both have to maintain scenarios in which we do NOT know anything about the heart of another…whether good or bad.

So, indeed we’re talking about a more realistic scenario where we actually don’t know the inner disposition of a person toward God. All we know is what is observable. All we know is that they missed Mass deliberately, for an invalid reason. Hence, we have grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent - atleast full consent to be separate from God in that short period of time where they deliberately skipped Mass. And what we can confidently say about these observations is that mortal sin exists in their soul. Not because we “know” their heart, but because we know they missed deliberately without a valid reason.

Now here is the important part, Rinne… We have no idea if they’re sorry or repentant. So we don’t know if they will remain in mortal sin, nor do we know if it was only a brief instant in which they were in mortal sin. Perhaps they were truly repentant shortly after the sin. But we can say that from the time the sin was committed…up until the point in which true repentance entered their heart (however long that time span would be…a few milliseconds, or 15 years)…they are in a state of mortal sin in that time span, and will condemn themselves if they die before repentance enters their heart.

You’re right…CMatt failed to acknowledge the “invalid reason” issue. And his scenario falls short because of it…it must indeed acknowledge that missing Mass was deliberately done for INVALID reasons, if the rest of his post is to be accurate.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I guess we just have to agree to disagee on this. I just don’t see this one case as putting oneself in that state as you describe. I try and try but don’t see it. And don’t see the Church teaching this either. I am trying I just can’t see it.

If a good Catholic felt they would go to hell forever for missing Church they would never miss. EVER. While I agree is can lead to death of the soul to leave the Church missing one Sunday just don’t cut it in my book. I can;t see it.

No, I’m gonna try one more.

OK, Rinnie.
Suppose you decide to have sex outside of marriage, just once. You know it’s wrong. You truly know. You freely consent, you aren’t forced. . .and you’re not sorry afterward.

What is the difference between the mortal sin of fornication and the mortal sin of missing Mass on Sunday?

If you say, "Well, sex out of marriage is SERIOUS and missing Mass just is. . .trivial’. . .I’ll point out that far from being ‘trivial’, to attend Mass, without fail, on Sundays and holy days is so important that it is one of the six PRECEPTS OF THE CHURCH.

See, I think you think that despite what God SAYS about missing Mass being a mortal sin if you know it is grave, understand and agree, and then do it anyway without being sorry. . .that hey, it’s ONLY MISSING MASS and not COMPARABLE to a ‘real’ mortal sin.

And I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. God is the one who made the rules and He made them for a reason. I don’t see a ranking scale anywhere in Christian teaching that says, “Ok people, mortal sins, worst is murder, next is rape, next is sex outside of marriage, and then there’s a bunch of stuff that we can argue about because stealing millions is definitely wrong but shoplifting isn’t really stealing because the clothes are overpriced anyway. . .and FINALLY, that last on the list is missing Mass because it’s so dang trivial.”

We know plenty of people who think that sex outside of marriage is not wrong either if ‘they both consent’. Does that make them morally correct? Heck no. Why not? Because God has said so.

I asked before, what other mortal sin is there where if you do it ‘once’ it isn’t mortal, you have to do it ‘more than once?’

Can you tell me where you learned that missing Mass deliberately ‘once’ just isn’t important enough to be a mortal sin?

 

[rinnie]

Okay let me try once more

Because Pope John Paul II teaches for a sin to be mortal 3 conditions must be present. ALL 3 at the same time.

For missing Church to be a mortal sin to be present one of the conditions is that you have to choose to be deliberately turning away from God. Anotherwards you are missing Church not because you are tired, etc. You are missing Church because you are doing it for the 3 reasons, and the one is you are doing because you are choosing to turn away from God.

That is why cannot see someone who has never missed Church in their life and then miss ONE HOLY day or Sunday being accused of missing Church because they are doing it for the main reason of turning away from God.

As I said I am not saying that we do not have to repent our sins and if we missed Church and all 3 conditions existed we have indeed put ourself in a state of Mortal sin and must repent and go to confession from a Priest.

But if you miss Church because you were away or just blew it off, its not good, and it is a sin but not mortal if you did not do it for the purpose of separating yourself from God and the Eucharist.

On the other hand if a Person went to Church every single holy day and Sunday and then just blew off mass because they wanted to just turn away from God and his Body and his Eucharist then I would agree.

BUt not within the context that Matt had presented. The Pope teaches differently and I agree with the Pope.

Look up the teaching of Pope John Paul II on the 3 condtions that must ALL be present at the same time.

 

[rinnie]

Oh and by the way would missing Church mean you are deliberately turning away from GOd and his commands. Just Once I don’t see it.

Is have sex outside of marriage a worse sin and is all conditons present in committing adultery. Yes I see all 3 conditions in that.

First of all do you know that it is a grave offense to have sex outside of marriage, Yes.
Are you doing it anyway knowing that it is separating you and the other person from God? Yes. DO you go ahead and engage in it anyway. I see all three. BIg difference/

The bible tells you some sins are worse then others. Got to go, but will check back tommorow.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh and by the way would missing Church mean you are deliberately turning away from GOd and his commands. Just Once I don’t see it.

Is have sex outside of marriage a worse sin and is all conditons present in committing adultery. Yes I see all 3 conditions in that.

First of all do you know that it is a grave offense to have sex outside of marriage, Yes.
Are you doing it anyway knowing that it is separating you and the other person from God? Yes. DO you go ahead and engage in it anyway. I see all three. BIg difference/

The bible tells you some sins are worse then others. Got to go, but will check back tommorow.

Rinnie, we have already said we are not talking about every single instance of missing Mass by a given person. Sometimes not all the conditions are met. . .

Are you telling me you don’t think it is POSSIBLE for a Catholic to:
Know that missing Mass is a mortal sin?
Know that to miss Mass will be your free choice separating you from God and completely killing your relationship with Him forever, unless you repent?
Miss Mass anyway, and not be sorry?

You REALLY don’t think that this could happen to anybody??

What makes missing Mass the only mortal sin that could NOT happen to a person ‘just once’ and still be mortal?

Remember, some sins are worse than others, but whereas mortal sin is worse than venial sin, Mortal sin is mortal sin is mortal sin. If you kill somebody, you’re in mortal sin. If you have sex outside of marriage, you’re in mortal sin. If you deliberately eat meat on a Lenten Friday, you’re in mortal sin. If you miss Mass without grave reason on Sunday, you’re in mortal sin.

Each of those sins is JUST AS DEADLY in its effect on the SOUL. Dead is dead is dead. Each of those sins offends God equally. . .not because of their intrinsic ‘Richter scale’ evilness but because each willfully disobeys.

Thou shalt not kill. . .disobeyed is murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. . .disobeyed, sexual sin.
I am the Lord thy God. . .disobeyed is eating meat on Lenten Fridays and missing Mass on Sundays. . .(because He commands us to do something, and we disobey Him)

All break the commandments. All are grave matter. All are disobedient, and ALL, unrepented, will bring the person to hell.

 

[SteveGC]

Correct Tantum…and Rinnie, what does “blow it off” mean?

Someone who “blows off” Mass for no valid reason is gravely sinning, Rinn. How does one “blow off” Mass for a valid reason?

“Tired” is even highly debatable as a valid reason, IMO. If your tiredness was due to irresponsible behavior, then no, it is not valid. If it is due to shear exhaustion due to work requirements or caring for another, then yes, perhaps it is quite valid.

But “blow it off”? Unless you’re coming up with some other definition of that phrase, it is not valid.

Missing Mass is just as gravely sinful as adultery, Rinn. If either is done under the context of the 2 remaining reasons (intent, knowledge), then mortal sin exists. Period. And it only takes one instance.

Doesn’t mean one is condemned though…not unless, of course, they die before having genuine repentance in their heart (and hopefully sacramental confession to be sure).

Peace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Correct Tantum…and Rinnie, what does “blow it off” mean?

Someone who “blows off” Mass for no valid reason is gravely sinning, Rinn. How does one “blow off” Mass for a valid reason?

“Tired” is even highly debatable as a valid reason, IMO. If your tiredness was due to irresponsible behavior, then no, it is not valid. If it is due to shear exhaustion due to work requirements or caring for another, then yes, perhaps it is quite valid.

But “blow it off”? Unless you’re coming up with some other definition of that phrase, it is not valid.

Missing Mass is just as gravely sinful as adultery, Rinn. If either is done under the context of the 2 remaining reasons (intent, knowledge), then mortal sin exists. Period. And it only takes one instance.

Doesn’t mean one is condemned though…not unless, of course, they die before having genuine repentance in their heart (and hopefully sacramental confession to be sure).

Peace.

Right.

Remember, we are just saying the action itself --missing Mass without a valid grave reason (such as caring for a sick person, being ill and/or contagious, not being physically able to get there due to blizzard, flood, etc)–is gravely sinful.

OK? Missing Mass deliberately is just as much a mortal sin as deliberately killing a person or stealing somebody’s credit card and maxing it out or torching a church or having sex outside of marriage. All gravely sinful. All have different repercussions on your soul, on the soul of another person, and on your relationship with God.

Now, one could argue that whereas killing another person has a fatal effect on the killed person, plunges his family into sorrow, leads the community into fear, has a huge societal ‘cost’ for the police etc. hunting the killer, the costs of trial, jail, etc., the effect on the killer’s family, etc. . .

it might SEEM that ‘missing one Mass’ has no societal ‘bad effects.’

One would be wrong.

As a Catholic you’re never JUST "me and Jesus chillin’ anywhere’. You are part of a community of faith. Part of your obligation as a member of that community is to SUPPORT the community with your presence. Your absence at church has an effect on your community. Your community is lacking YOU. . .you’re missing your interaction with others, you’re missing your interaction at the Last Supper, at Calvary, you’re missing an opportunity to receive Christ Himself. . .it might be a more subtle effect but it is far more lasting. . .indeed it has eternal repercussions.

Your family sees the effects. Hey, if mom or dad doesn’t think church is a big deal, why should the kids? Children suffer when they are raised with ‘do as I say not as I do’. They can see it’s hypocritical. How do they develop a relationship with God when He isn’t important enough to visit for an hour a week? When it’s more important that dad spend hours watching TV, or mom spend hours at the gym or getting a mani-pedi, but God doesn’t even get a look-see.

Your community sees the effects. Not in a mean, judgmental way necessarily, either. They see that ‘nice guy Tom’ only shows up on Christmas or Easter. . .but Tom is a great guy! So often other ‘nice guys’ get the impression that if it’s good enough for TOM to show up rarely, it’s perfectly fine for THEM. IOW, Tom just led a lot of people into temptation because people trusted Tom to be a good example. Something which Tom indeed has the obligation to do as a Catholic Christian. . .but Tom really dropped the ball here.

Your friends and neighbors and others ‘outside the community’ see the effects. Like your friends at church, they see “good old Tom” and tend to accept that whatever Tom does represents the best of the group Tom claims to be part of.

If Tom represents himself as Catholic, then his non-Catholic friends (and others) are going to use Tom as a measure of what they think Catholics are. The more ‘pleasing’ a person is in ways like physical attractiveness, societal ‘niceness’, etc., the more likely they are to judge the person as a ‘good example’. So all these non-Catholics see "good old Tom’ going to Mass rarely. So for them, Catholics don’t need to show up at Mass, and in fact, they will think Catholics who DO show up weekly are ‘showoffs’ because “a real Catholic is somebody like good old Tom.”

 

[SteveGC]

Right.

Remember, we are just saying the action itself --missing Mass without a valid grave reason (such as caring for a sick person, being ill and/or contagious, not being physically able to get there due to blizzard, flood, etc)–is gravely sinful.

OK? Missing Mass deliberately is just as much a mortal sin as deliberately killing a person or stealing somebody’s credit card and maxing it out or torching a church or having sex outside of marriage. All gravely sinful. All have different repercussions on your soul, on the soul of another person, and on your relationship with God.

Now, one could argue that whereas killing another person has a fatal effect on the killed person, plunges his family into sorrow, leads the community into fear, has a huge societal ‘cost’ for the police etc. hunting the killer, the costs of trial, jail, etc., the effect on the killer’s family, etc. . .

it might SEEM that ‘missing one Mass’ has no societal ‘bad effects.’

One would be wrong.

As a Catholic you’re never JUST "me and Jesus chillin’ anywhere’. You are part of a community of faith. Part of your obligation as a member of that community is to SUPPORT the community with your presence. Your absence at church has an effect on your community. Your community is lacking YOU. . .you’re missing your interaction with others, you’re missing your interaction at the Last Supper, at Calvary, you’re missing an opportunity to receive Christ Himself. . .it might be a more subtle effect but it is far more lasting. . .indeed it has eternal repercussions.

Your family sees the effects. Hey, if mom or dad doesn’t think church is a big deal, why should the kids? Children suffer when they are raised with ‘do as I say not as I do’. They can see it’s hypocritical. How do they develop a relationship with God when He isn’t important enough to visit for an hour a week? When it’s more important that dad spend hours watching TV, or mom spend hours at the gym or getting a mani-pedi, but God doesn’t even get a look-see.

Your community sees the effects. Not in a mean, judgmental way necessarily, either. They see that ‘nice guy Tom’ only shows up on Christmas or Easter. . .but Tom is a great guy! So often other ‘nice guys’ get the impression that if it’s good enough for TOM to show up rarely, it’s perfectly fine for THEM. IOW, Tom just led a lot of people into temptation because people trusted Tom to be a good example. Something which Tom indeed has the obligation to do as a Catholic Christian. . .but Tom really dropped the ball here.

Your friends and neighbors and others ‘outside the community’ see the effects. Like your friends at church, they see “good old Tom” and tend to accept that whatever Tom does represents the best of the group Tom claims to be part of.

If Tom represents himself as Catholic, then his non-Catholic friends (and others) are going to use Tom as a measure of what they think Catholics are. The more ‘pleasing’ a person is in ways like physical attractiveness, societal ‘niceness’, etc., the more likely they are to judge the person as a ‘good example’. So all these non-Catholics see "good old Tom’ going to Mass rarely. So for them, Catholics don’t need to show up at Mass, and in fact, they will think Catholics who DO show up weekly are ‘showoffs’ because “a real Catholic is somebody like good old Tom.”

Good points.

Of course, I know Rinnie’s objection here is that the example given is of one missing Mass frequently, and it is understandable that it would have the given repercussions on family, community, etc., as well as gravely impactful on the person himself. Her qualm is that missing just one Mass couldn’t possibly be that impactful. But the main counter point here is that Mass and the Eucharist are central to our faith. The Eucharist itself has been called the “source and summit of our faith”. That’s huge. Source and summit. Where it all begins, where we reach the highest heights. Huge numbers of martyrs have willingly gone to their death in order to ensure they participate every Sunday. It puts “valid reason” into perspective, doesn’t it?

And Sunday is the day designated for it, of course. Every Sunday (or Saturday vigil). That’s probably the toughest part for a Catholic struggling with the mortality of missing just one Sunday without valid reason. There are 52 in a year, after all. Probably about 4000 of them in a lifetime for the average person (living to around 80). What’s missing one, even blowing it off?

Ok…well…

Think of these 4000 Sundays. Compare it to 29,000 days of living (to 80). It works out to 14%. OK, now break it down by what we’re really looking at…hours (Masses are typically 1 hour long). There’s 4000 hours for Mass in a typical lifetime. Compare that to about 700,000 hours in a lifetime. That’s about 0.5%.

Half a percent of our lives are demanded in worship and communion with God.

Puts the mortality of missing one on purpose into clear perspective for me.

-Steve

 

[Sherry_G]

Missing Mass on Sunday for no good reason is a very serious mortal sin. No amount of rationalizing can change that. Regardless of someone’s interpretation or feeling about it, the gravity of it is way beyond anything else a person could do to turn away from God. We are not at liberty to apply our own “ranking system” to various sins and demote some sins to lesser offenses just due to our own feelings. Following church teachings may not always be easy or easily understood, but the teachings are our guide and will not lead us into sin. If anyone has a problem or fails to see the church’s ‘logic’, the best thing to do is continue to pray for enlightenment and follow church teachings to the best of our ability. We can all make mistakes and commit sins. Failing to accept that we have commited a sin due to our own pride or feelings is treading on a very slippery slope, imho.

 

[acarlson]

Because they are human, and when we are human we fall to sin. You are correct noone forces us to be a part of a particular religion.

Christ himself said you are either with me or you are against me. If you are with Christ you will follow him by your own free will and be part of his Church.

If you are against him you will not follow him and be a part of his Church.

Many People remain Catholic because they know in their heart it is the truth the way and the light, simply because God told us so.

You are allowed to debate the teachings of the Church, you don’t even have to agree with all of them, you just have to obey them.

When you were a child did you agree with every single discipline of your parents. Of course you didn’t. But when you got older and wiser did you come to understand those reasons.

The same with the Church, it is hard to be the perfect Catholic, just like being the perfect child, We fail, we fall, we sin, but just like a parent takes back a child the Church takes back her Children.

Where does the scripture say that you have to agree with every single teaching of Christ? I missed that part, All I ever read is you must obey the teachings of Christ.

Christ said to keep holy the Lords day, that means Church so we do, he said repent and confess your sins, so we do, he says be baptised so we do, He says receive the living bread from heaven so we do.

Christ said you will know the tree by its fruit. Christ said if you love me keep my word, follow my commandments.

So the answer is quite simple, if you want to have eternal life in Christ you will do as you are told, obey his commands and do what you are told. We want eternal life so we obey the Church and do as we are told.

We do not believe that we have the wisdom or knowledge of God to understand everything he says and commands. And he is cool with that. He knows and will reveal it to us when he says no us.

SO while you choose to walk alone we choose to walk with Christ. Because to us it is more important to have eternal life in Christ, and do his will, then to walk this world on our own and loose eternal life with Christ.

That was a beautiful explanation! I agree with you. But we all need to make sure we don’t ostracize those people who aren’t willing to obey but still stay with the Church all the same. They’re half way there in admitting that the Catholic Church is the true Church. They just need to learn why they should obey, even if they don’t agree.

 

[rinnie]

Hey guys I have to be quick, again as usual got a real busy weekend. Will check back on Mon.

Here is what the Church teaches. No one can judge a heart.
Only God.

mortal sin is defined by a persons heart.

God will not judge a violation one broke with the Church, Go judgles Mark 7:15

Mortal sin is jusged by the motivation of the heart.

So lets say there is a reason to miss Church this Sunday. Even though to US it does not cut it. IT does not matter.

Lets say I have to go somewhere and its so hard to attend Church on that particular Sunday. Now remember the Original topic we are talking about someone who never misses Church.

I believe in my heart that God will understand this once that I cannot fill my Sunday obligation by attending mass. But I can at night pray, I can the next week go to daily mass for a week, one daily mass. etc. DO some extra penance for missing Mass.

But Am I in the state of Mortal sin. Only Myself and GOd can judge.

Mortal sin is JUDGED by the Motivation of the Heart.

If this goes against the teachings of the Church I must see it.

It is a GENERAL rule we must keep Holy the Sunday and Holy days of course it is. And must we fulfill our obligation, Of course. BUt can we if we have a good reason in our heart miss Mass every once in while and not be in a state of Mortal sin.

According to the teaching of the Church on Moral Sin yes we can. But only WE know in our heart why and only God can judge us.

Check it out and again read ALL of the 3 conditions that MUST be present at the SAME time. Then check out if we can judge others on mortal sin or not. You might be surprised the Ole rinster here might know what she is talking about.

Gotta roll, will be back on Mon. God bless you are all in my prayers, and I hope I am in yours.