Why do people who say they are Catholic continue to say so when they do not follow the teachings of the Catholic church?

[Tantum_ergo]

Hey guys I have to be quick, again as usual got a real busy weekend. Will check back on Mon.

Here is what the Church teaches. No one can judge a heart.
Only God.

mortal sin is defined by a persons heart.

God will not judge a violation one broke with the Church, Go judgles Mark 7:15

Mortal sin is jusged by the motivation of the heart.

So lets say there is a reason to miss Church this Sunday. Even though to US it does not cut it. IT does not matter.

Lets say I have to go somewhere and its so hard to attend Church on that particular Sunday. Now remember the Original topic we are talking about someone who never misses Church.

I believe in my heart that God will understand this once that I cannot fill my Sunday obligation by attending mass. But I can at night pray, I can the next week go to daily mass for a week, one daily mass. etc. DO some extra penance for missing Mass.

But Am I in the state of Mortal sin. Only Myself and GOd can judge.

Mortal sin is JUDGED by the Motivation of the Heart.

If this goes against the teachings of the Church I must see it.

It is a GENERAL rule we must keep Holy the Sunday and Holy days of course it is. And must we fulfill our obligation, Of course. BUt can we if we have a good reason in our heart miss Mass every once in while and not be in a state of Mortal sin.

According to the teaching of the Church on Moral Sin yes we can. But only WE know in our heart why and only God can judge us.

Check it out and again read ALL of the 3 conditions that MUST be present at the SAME time. Then check out if we can judge others on mortal sin or not. You might be surprised the Ole rinster here might know what she is talking about.

Gotta roll, will be back on Mon. God bless you are all in my prayers, and I hope I am in yours.

So we aren’t really arguing Rinnie.

To say that a person who has no good reason for missing Mass and knows it and does it anyway is in objective mortal sin is NOT us 'judging the person instead of God."

As you say, the person may repent at any time, the person may mistakenly think his reason is good enough, etc.

But we are (and Scripture tells us to do this) not judging the person’s heart. . . we are simply stating the objectivity of the ACTION.

IF a person commits the mortal sin of missing Mass on Sunday, knows it is grave, accepts it as grave, and does it anyway and rejects God, that person is in mortal sin, not because I’m judging him but because of the ACTION.

And I’m glad to see that you have apparently accepted that even ONE missing Mass can be a mortal sin, not a venial one.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m sure this has already been well discussed, but my 2 cents. Good question, my thoughts are that we live in an age where the self has primacy over everything. That is, what I believe and think is so important, that it userps what the church teaches. Out of “respect”, I will “allow” the church to maintain their “opinion”, but what ultimiatly matters is what I think and God will accept me just the way I am.

I think this about sums it up, you see this same attitude at all levels of deepenss in the faith I’m afraid. Basically it crops up the moment either a doctrinal teaching (certainly), or even when a very good general suggestion is put forward which offends our personal sensibilities. We have forgotten how to be humble and obedient, even to the point of thoughtfully considering the opinions of others as being… Correct.

 

[rinnie]

So we aren’t really arguing Rinnie.

To say that a person who has no good reason for missing Mass and knows it and does it anyway is in objective mortal sin is NOT us 'judging the person instead of God."

As you say, the person may repent at any time, the person may mistakenly think his reason is good enough, etc.

But we are (and Scripture tells us to do this) not judging the person’s heart. . . we are simply stating the objectivity of the ACTION.

IF a person commits the mortal sin of missing Mass on Sunday, knows it is grave, accepts it as grave, and does it anyway and rejects God, that person is in mortal sin, not because I’m judging him but because of the ACTION.

And I’m glad to see that you have apparently accepted that even ONE missing Mass can be a mortal sin, not a venial one.

Hold on there my little muffin, NOW lets get back to what we ARE arguing about. How can WE do all of the above as you say. Can we Judge the action? In order to judge the action we have 3 thing’s to prove. As you yourself stated.

1. A person misses Mass for NO good reason, That has to occur.
2. ACCEPTS it as a Grave sin.
3. Misses Church for the PURPOSE of Rejecting GOD.

Do you see that ALL 3 HAVE to occur for it to be considered a Mortal sin? Now lets go back to what Matt said.

Let me dig it back up.

 

[rinnie]

Hello Lui, I will take a stab at what I think will be the answer as to how they know a person will go to hell if they die in mortal sin.

I am not sure what the Holy Days of Obligation are in Germany. Here in the states where I live, lets say I did not obey my bishop and missed a Holy Day of Obligation. Lets say the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary on a Thursday December 8. This would be a mortal sin according to the Catholic Church. So if I do not repent in my heart for missing this one Thursday Mass prior to taking my last breath, even if I had never missed another Mass in my life and had otherwise lived as exemplary a life as possible for a human being, they will I think say I will go to hell. They will say they are not judging me. That it is just a warning to me as if I were being told not to jump off a cliff. That they are not saying I will definitely go to hell. Only that I will, if I die without repenting in my heart this disobedience of my bishop of not attending Mass on the Thursday in my scenario. But that they do not know if I will have done so or not. At least this is how I have had it explained to me previously. God bless and peace!

There you go, he stated point blank that if he missed a HOLY DAY or Sunday and did not REPENT MISSING mass the Church condemns that person to hell.

THis is EXACTLY what he said, and this is exactly what I am arguing. The RCC does not teach this.

The RCC teaches that we indeed are to take seriously the Holy days of Ob. and Sundays. But if for some reason we cannot attend Mass for ANY reason, we can find others ways to make up for this.

We ARE NOT in a STATE of MORTAL SIN, because all 3 CONDITIONS MUST be present AT THE SAME TIME, for missing mass to become a MORTAL SIN.

Now lets go to what Matt said again,he said if we miss Mass and do not repent the Church states we are going to hell.

No Priest has EVER stated this, no teaching of the RCC has ever taught, let me point this simple:

Warning Roman Catholics. if you miss mass, for ANY reason, except you are deathly sick etc. You have PUT YOURSELF in MORTAL danger and separated yourself from God. You by missing that one mass or holy day have now SEPARATED yourself from God, you have rejected him, and unless you repent that sin, which is mortal are going to hell.

This is my argument, this is what was said and this is not true.

My argument is this, as I stated all along. If I get up, and just blow off Church as was stated what does blow off church mean, let me be clear, I am on vacation and just miss Church because it is not easy to get to, but not IMPOSSIBLE, but I miss Church, and in MY mind am not doing it to INTENTIONALLY REJECT CHRIST and I die that night, I am NOT, let me repeat am NOT in a state of Mortal sin.

We have 3 conditions for a SIN to be MORTAL, Missing one Sunday for whatever reason there is, I don’t care what it is, KNOWING in my heart I will be there next SUNDAY is NOT may I repeat IS NOT rejecting CHRIST.

I have to miss MASS and REJECT CHRIST ALSO in order to meet all 3 conditions.

IS it possible? Anything IS possible, but come on. A person who went every single day of their life is going to miss ONE Sunday and in the process REJECT CHRIST NOW? :nope:

I am not buying this what was said, NO WAY, and the CHURCH does not TEACH this.

Matt never said this person who missed mass has CHOSEN to not only miss mass this person has met all of the conditons of this sin to be mortal which one was this person not only missed mass he REJECTED CHRIST. Then I could give him the Okay, Yep thats true. He never said that.

Read again what he said.

 

[Sherry_G]

I believe you are doing a “work-around” rinnie! IOW, if you don’t 'think" you are rejecting Christ by rejecting the teachings of the church on this one issue, then, for you, missing mass becasue you want to 'blow it off" just once, is, for you, not a mortal sin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m sure this has already been well discussed, but my 2 cents. Good question, my thoughts are that we live in an age where the self has primacy over everything. That is, what I believe and think is so important, that it userps what the church teaches. Out of “respect”, I will “allow” the church to maintain their “opinion”, but what ultimiatly matters is what I think and God will accept me just the way I am.

I think this about sums it up, you see this same attitude at all levels of deepenss in the faith I’m afraid. Basically it crops up the moment either a doctrinal teaching (certainly), or even when a very good general suggestion is put forward which offends our personal sensibilities. We have forgotten how to be humble and obedient, even to the point of thoughtfully considering the opinions of others as being… Correct.

I agree, I also believe we should respond to something/anything we see which is incorrect. For, if you don’t you are accepting it, cooperating with it and giving it life. This is the same with all thats negative. One teenager selling drugs quickly turns into a street with 20. Its easy to say…its not for me to judge, nor my business. However it is everyones business since the world is our home.

Peace

 

[SteveGC]

Hold on there my little muffin, NOW lets get back to what we ARE arguing about. How can WE do all of the above as you say. Can we Judge the action? In order to judge the action we have 3 thing’s to prove. As you yourself stated.

1. A person misses Mass for NO good reason, That has to occur.
2. ACCEPTS it as a Grave sin.
3. Misses Church for the PURPOSE of Rejecting GOD.

Do you see that ALL 3 HAVE to occur for it to be considered a Mortal sin? Now lets go back to what Matt said.

Let me dig it back up.

You have two instances of the “full intent” part of the equation, in your #1 and #3 statements. And the way you stated #3 is inaccurate. Here is the better way to state the 3 requirements for mortal sin in this scenario:

1. It is gravely sinful to miss the Sunday obligation for no good reason (Grave Matter)
2. The person understands and accepts it as grave matter (Full Knowledge)
3. The person misses Mass for no good reason (Full Consent)

Notice how I did not state, as you did, “for the purpose of rejecting God”. Why? Because that is inferred by the third statement as I wrote it. Think of it this way, how is it that you’re NOT rejecting God by missing Mass for no good reason? In other words, if you have no good reason to miss Mass, rinnie, then by definition you are purposefully rejecting God when you do not attend Mass.

One last way to put it, as a formula:

No good reason + missing Mass on Sunday = purposefully rejecting God (which is mortal sin)

 

[rinnie]

I believe you are doing a “work-around” rinnie! IOW, if you don’t 'think" you are rejecting Christ by rejecting the teachings of the church on this one issue, then, for you, missing mass becasue you want to 'blow it off" just once, is, for you, not a mortal sin.

No I am saying read the teachings of your Church. For a Mortal sin to be present all 3 CONDITIONS must exist.

DO you agree or disagee that for a sin to be present all 3 CONDITIONS must be present YES or NO?

Let me make this even more simple is missing ONE sunday or Holy Day putting you in a state of mortal sin, is the action of missing church ONE day mean you have rejected Christ? That is what I am asking?

 

[SteveGC]

I believe you are doing a “work-around” rinnie! IOW, if you don’t 'think" you are rejecting Christ by rejecting the teachings of the church on this one issue, then, for you, missing mass becasue you want to 'blow it off" just once, is, for you, not a mortal sin.

Correct Sherry. Rinnie seems to be attempting (most likely unintentionally) to disconnect the rejection of Church teaching from the rejection of Christ. Can’t do that. They are synonymous. Reject the teaching, reject Christ.

 

[SteveGC]

Let me make this even more simple is missing ONE sunday or Holy Day putting you in a state of mortal sin, is the action of missing church ONE day mean you have rejected Christ? That is what I am asking?

and the answer is YES, rinnie. If you miss ONE Sunday for no good reason, you reject Christ, and are in mortal sin. It’s that simple.

 

[rinnie]

You have two instances of the “full intent” part of the equation, in your #1 and #3 statements. And the way you stated #3 is inaccurate. Here is the better way to state the 3 requirements for mortal sin in this scenario:

1. It is gravely sinful to miss the Sunday obligation for no good reason (Grave Matter)
2. The person understands and accepts it as grave matter (Full Knowledge)
3. The person misses Mass for no good reason (Full Consent)

Notice how I did not state, as you did, “for the purpose of rejecting God”. Why? Because that is inferred by the third statement as I wrote it. Think of it this way, how is it that you’re NOT rejecting God by missing Mass for no good reason? In other words, if you have no good reason to miss Mass, rinnie, then by definition you are purposefully rejecting God when you do not attend Mass.

One last way to put it, as a formula:

No good reason + missing Mass on Sunday = purposefully rejecting God (which is mortal sin)

Because as I stated for mortal sin to exist all 3 conditions must be present.

You have to prove to me that if I miss Mass I did it to REJECT CHRIST. IF I missed Mass because I rejected Christ, and that was the REASON I am in a state of Mortal sin.

But you need to prove to me that just missing mass for no GOOD reason, means I rejected Christ. ONLY I KNOW.

You stated no good reasin+ missing mass on Sunday means I rejected Christ. How can you say that when you do not know my heart? SO you are saying, lets get this straight,

As Matt stated if I miss mass, and don’t have a good reason, I have rejected Christ and I am in a state of Mortal sin and I will go to hell if I do not repent?

Think what you are stating you feel that if I miss mass, I have agreed to not only miss Christ, I reject him? How can you say that if I miss one Sunday I have rejected Christ? Where did the Church state that?

 

[rinnie]

and the answer is YES, rinnie. If you miss ONE Sunday for no good reason, you reject Christ, and are in mortal sin. It’s that simple.

Okay now we have a big problem.

I die, and I missed Mass, and God says to me Do you reject ME? And I say of course not my Lord, but God says well guess what. Steve said that you missed mass for no good reason, and that means you REJECT me.

So Steve has the right to make this call and read your heart, not you, or I.

And I say God I would never reject you, You Know my Love for you, I just missed one Mass. And God says yes I know your heart and I know in your heart you did not meet all 3 conditions. But steve said you missed mass, he judged your heart Not I, and you have to go to hell now.

So I either have to repent rejecting Christ, which in my heart I did not do. OR I am going to hell now, because steve said so.

 

[Jesus_123]

+The Thoughts of God revealed in the First Reading from Sacred :bible1: Scripture for the Holy Prayer of the celebration of the Daily Mass this morning provide a CLEAR answer to the original poster’s question . . .

The Holy Bible
2 Timothy 4:1-5

[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they WILL NOT endure sound doctrine; but, according to their OWN desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed TURN AWAY their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . Blessed Holy Mother Mary please pray for us+​

 

[rinnie]

+The Thoughts of God revealed in the First Reading from Sacred :bible1: Scripture for the Holy Prayer of the celebration of the Daily Mass this morning provide a CLEAR answer to the original poster’s question . . .

The Holy Bible
2 Timothy 4:1-5

[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they WILL NOT endure sound doctrine; but, according to their OWN desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed TURN AWAY their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . Blessed Holy Mother Mary please pray for us+​

And I agree with this in every being of my heart.

And I also believe that the Church teaches that in order for Mortal sin to occur, we must meet all 3 conditions.

And for missing mass in order for it to be Mortal for our soul our INTENTION must meet the requirement of missing mass to separate us from Christ.

 

[rinnie]

and the answer is YES, rinnie. If you miss ONE Sunday for no good reason, you reject Christ, and are in mortal sin. It’s that simple.

Then as I stated Steve, you have put yourself in the position to READ my MIND. Did you not. How could you state WHAT my intention is.

Because the RCC has never stated this. The RCC states that while missing mass CAN put a person in the state of Mortal sin, only GOD can judge a soul.

All the church has ever taught that not keeping the commandments CAN put a soul into mortal danger. BUt only GOd can judge a heart. ITs Gods call. You like Matt made the call for GOd.

You know I love and respect you steve, but I cannot see how you can say this, or state the CHurch teaches this. This is my argument.

 

[ManOnFire]

+The Thoughts of God revealed in the First Reading from Sacred :bible1: Scripture for the Holy Prayer of the celebration of the Daily Mass this morning provide a CLEAR answer to the original poster’s question . . .

The Holy Bible
2 Timothy 4:1-5

[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they WILL NOT endure sound doctrine; but, according to their OWN desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed TURN AWAY their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . Blessed Holy Mother Mary please pray for us+​

The problem is that many people are conforming to the acts of the false god of the entertainment media. If only more people would open their minds to minimize their exposure to the media’s promotion of loveless lust, then more TRUE love would flow between men and women.

 

[jadezz]

waaa… guilty here
But I do still consider myself one since I was baptize as one… though my Catholic faith is wavering
I want to find answers but I’m being drawn out of Catholic teaching.

 

[Jesus_123]

+jadezz . . . below is a holy little very effectual prayer from . . . ** God’s Holy Word** . . . that Jesus our Blessed Lord and Saviour . . . will always hear and bless with an answer . . .

:bible1:
And immediately
the father of the boy crying out,
with tears said:
I do believe,
LORD:
help my unbelief.
*** - Mark 9:23***

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Gracious Heavenly Father+
. . . for always hearing and answering prayer+
. . . Blessed Virgin Mary, Holy Mother of God+
. . . please pray for us all+​

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hold on there my little muffin, NOW lets get back to what we ARE arguing about. How can WE do all of the above as you say. Can we Judge the action? In order to judge the action we have 3 thing’s to prove. As you yourself stated.

1. A person misses Mass for NO good reason, That has to occur.
2. ACCEPTS it as a Grave sin.
3. Misses Church for the PURPOSE of Rejecting GOD.

Do you see that ALL 3 HAVE to occur for it to be considered a Mortal sin? Now lets go back to what Matt said.

Let me dig it back up.

No, my little pumpkin pie . . .I THINK your disconnect occurs at #3.

I agree with:

1. A person misses Mass for no good reason.
2. Accepts it as a grave sin.

Now 3. Full consent of the will means that one rejects God, but not necessarily that one say, flat out, “I don’t want to go to church because I am rejecting GOD and that’s why I’m not going.”

One can very easily rationalize or not be willing to come out and say, "I know this rejects God but I’m doing it anyway.’ It is so much easier to pretend that, “Oh it’s just ONE Mass and even though it’s important, what I WANT is more important. Rejecting God? Well, I’m not going to focus on THAT. I know it but I’ll play the game of pretending that I wouldn’t reject God over ‘one little Mass’. It’s just that I won’t go, I don’t CARE, stop bothering me and let me have my way.”

Do you really think, Rinnie, that a person doesn’t realize a mortal sin is a rejection of God? I know we’ve had poor catechesis but it isn’t THAT poor. I know as a society we’ve become very adept at focusing on things like “MY conscience” (and pretending that if it was all right with that that any sin became ‘un’ mortal). But deep down, people know.

Do you really feel people CAN’T sin mortally because they really don’t want to reject God?

 

[SteveGC]

Okay now we have a big problem.

I die, and I missed Mass, and God says to me Do you reject ME? And I say of course not my Lord, but God says well guess what. Steve said that you missed mass for no good reason, and that means you REJECT me.

So Steve has the right to make this call and read your heart, not you, or I.

And I say God I would never reject you, You Know my Love for you, I just missed one Mass. And God says yes I know your heart and I know in your heart you did not meet all 3 conditions. But steve said you missed mass, he judged your heart Not I, and you have to go to hell now.

So I either have to repent rejecting Christ, which in my heart I did not do. OR I am going to hell now, because steve said so.

Then as I stated Steve, you have put yourself in the position to READ my MIND. Did you not. How could you state WHAT my intention is.

Because the RCC has never stated this. The RCC states that while missing mass CAN put a person in the state of Mortal sin, only GOD can judge a soul.

All the church has ever taught that not keeping the commandments CAN put a soul into mortal danger. BUt only GOd can judge a heart. ITs Gods call. You like Matt made the call for GOd.

You know I love and respect you steve, but I cannot see how you can say this, or state the CHurch teaches this. This is my argument.

As I also respect you, rinnie. I am trying my best to let you know that I do not claim to know anyone’s heart, nor do I know the eternal destiny of anyone. I’ll try one more time here to help you see how I see Church teaching…

First, the Church IS Christ, right rinnie? As Catholics, we know that to reject the Church is to reject Christ Himself. That’s biblical, traditional, magisterial. So, when we reject a teaching of the Church regarding faith and morals, we are, by definition, rejecting Christ. If we don’t believe that, then we really have to go back to Catholicism 101.

Now, the Church, as guided by the Spirit of God, has received as part of the deposit of faith (to which we as the faithful are bound), teaching from Christ on sin (among other things). And we’ve learned that there are mortal sins and venial sins. And we have learned about them in enough detail to basically know when we are likely sinning mortally, or venially. We don’t have teaching on whether or not we are condemned or saved after death, that is for God. But we do have teaching from Christ that if we sin mortally, and die unrepentant of that sin, we will be condemned.

That’s what we know from the Church, from Christ. Ok…

So we have a formula for basically knowing if a person is sinning mortally. They are as follows:

1. The sin is grave matter
2. We have full knowledge of the sinfulness
3. We commit the sin with full consent

That’s it.

Doesn’t say “with the purpose of rejecting God”. And the reason it doesn’t say this, is because it is inferred when we disobey a teaching of the Church regarding faith and morals…or, in other words, when we submit to grave sin while knowing it is grave sin, it is rejecting God. Only takes one time, and it’s mortal. And a Catholic to miss the Sunday obligation without a valid reason has met all 3 of the requirements for mortal sin.

Because what we’re doing when we intentionally miss Mass (without a valid reason) is disobeying a precept of the Church, and by definition, also disobeying Christ. So our intent to miss Mass is an intent to reject Christ, because we intend to disobey His Church. We can’t separate Christ from His Church, so when we disobey a dogma of the Church, we disobey Christ Himself. There is no way to intentionally miss Mass for no good reason and also not purposefully reject Christ. It is impossible.

I am NOT saying that such a person that misses Mass in this manner is condemned, rinnie. Not at all. I am saying that if a person intentionally misses Mass without a valid reason, then Christ has taught us, through His Church, that this is mortal sin for that person.

Repentance for that mortal sin is completely another story, separate from the issue of mortal sin. And it is the existence or non-existence of repentance which addresses the judgment of a person. No one knows this except God Himself, and to a lesser degree, the person in question. But no one else knows. Not me, not another Catholic, not the Bishop, the Pope, the whole Church Herself doesn’t know. But we do know that IF a person is unrepentant unto death, they will condemn themselves. Notice the “IF”. And IF they are repentant before death, and receive sacramental confession, then die, they will be saved if that was the only mortal sin on their soul.

So, there are 2 things a person does not know about another person in terms of the missing Mass scenario. 1) absolute knowledge of the reasons a person missed Mass, and whether or not they missed it validly or invalidly. And 2) whether or not they have sorrow and repentance for missing Mass if they missed it invalidly.

That’s all, rinnie. Hope that helps you understand that I would never attempt to judge anyone, or think that I knew what anyone’s state of salvation was. I am only following the clear teaching of the Church which tells all of us what is mortal sin, and what it means to die unrepentant of it.

Peace to you.