Why do people who say they are Catholic continue to say so when they do not follow the teachings of the Catholic church?

[Tantum_ergo]

No I am saying read the teachings of your Church. For a Mortal sin to be present all 3 CONDITIONS must exist.

DO you agree or disagee that for a sin to be present all 3 CONDITIONS must be present YES or NO?

Let me make this even more simple is missing ONE sunday or Holy Day putting you in a state of mortal sin, is the action of missing church ONE day mean you have rejected Christ? That is what I am asking?

Yes it does.

Honestly, Rinnie, think about it. Do you really think that a person can fully understand that an action is wrong, agree that it’s wrong, still do it anyway, and NOT reject GOD?

If an action is gravely sinful, it is not good.

God is good. What is not good is not God and is in fact a rejection of God through rejection of good.

It seems to me that you want to take God out of the picture and say that unless a person specifically SAYS "I reject God’ that a sin, even a grave sin, isn’t mortal because it’s not ‘rejecting God’. Balderdash.

By your ‘logic’, a person could abort their child and say, But I’m not doing it to reject GOD, I’m doing it because I can’t afford to raise this child, or I can’t finish school with this child, or even, I can’t be a good parent to this child so they’re better off happy in heaven. . .but I’m not rejecting GOD. . .therefore, I’m not sinning mortally, ha-ha-ha.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Okay now we have a big problem.

I die, and I missed Mass, and God says to me Do you reject ME? And I say of course not my Lord, but God says well guess what. Steve said that you missed mass for no good reason, and that means you REJECT me.

So Steve has the right to make this call and read your heart, not you, or I.

And I say God I would never reject you, You Know my Love for you, I just missed one Mass. And God says yes I know your heart and I know in your heart you did not meet all 3 conditions. But steve said you missed mass, he judged your heart Not I, and you have to go to hell now.

So I either have to repent rejecting Christ, which in my heart I did not do. OR I am going to hell now, because steve said so.

Bah.
When you die, Rinnie, and you look God in the face, He will say,“Rinnie, did you miss Mass knowingly? Did you miss knowing this was gravely wrong? Do you still not repent of missing this Mass and think that it is all right because you THINK you can sneak this by in saying you aren’t rejecting ME by defying my Church and breaking my commandments and doing something which gravely wounds and offends me and pretend you didn’t outright reject me?”

And your HEART will know that you are trying to play a ‘technicality’ and that yes, when you disobeyed God without ‘reason’ that you DID reject Him and you just tried not to ‘know’ although you knew in your heart and you were TOLD by many of your friends in the Church.

 

[rinnie]

No, my little pumpkin pie . . .I THINK your disconnect occurs at #3.

I agree with:

1. A person misses Mass for no good reason.
2. Accepts it as a grave sin.

Now 3. Full consent of the will means that one rejects God, but not necessarily that one say, flat out, “I don’t want to go to church because I am rejecting GOD and that’s why I’m not going.”

One can very easily rationalize or not be willing to come out and say, "I know this rejects God but I’m doing it anyway.’ It is so much easier to pretend that, “Oh it’s just ONE Mass and even though it’s important, what I WANT is more important. Rejecting God? Well, I’m not going to focus on THAT. I know it but I’ll play the game of pretending that I wouldn’t reject God over ‘one little Mass’. It’s just that I won’t go, I don’t CARE, stop bothering me and let me have my way.”

Do you really think, Rinnie, that a person doesn’t realize a mortal sin is a rejection of God? I know we’ve had poor catechesis but it isn’t THAT poor. I know as a society we’ve become very adept at focusing on things like “MY conscience” (and pretending that if it was all right with that that any sin became ‘un’ mortal). But deep down, people know.

Do you really feel people CAN’T sin mortally because they really don’t want to reject God?

Thats my favorite pie too. No I am saying that we know in our mind if we reject God or not. And if we choose to miss Church because we choose to separate ourself from God only us and God can know for sure.

That is why the Catholic Church teaches us that in order for us to be in a state of Mortal Sin all of the conditions must apply.

Let me ask you this, and be honest with me. DO you think if I miss Church on Sunday for whatever reason it is, because what IS a good reason then. BUt lets just say this one sunday I don’t go to Church. CAN you say that I reject God? Yes or No?

 

[SteveGC]

Let me ask you this, and be honest with me. DO you think if I miss Church on Sunday for whatever reason it is, because what IS a good reason then. BUt lets just say this one sunday I don’t go to Church. CAN you say that I reject God? Yes or No?

The question is incomplete.

We have to know if the reason was valid or not, and the Church gives guidance on this. The Church says it must be grave reasons, such as illness, caring for a seriously ill or dying person, no reasonable means to attend Mass, no Mass in a reasonable proximity to you. Short of these reasons, a priest would be the best guide to whether or not it was valid. “Blowing it off” is certainly invalid. Not going because you “just didn’t feel like it” is certainly invalid. I can tell you this…there are far more invalid reasons than valid ones when it comes to missing Mass. So when in doubt, it’s always best to assume it was invalid and confess it.

But we have to know the reasons someone missed Mass, before we can say if they reject God. If the reason was invalid, then yes, missing Mass is a rejection of God, because it’s a rejection of His Church’s dogma on morality.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thats my favorite pie too. No I am saying that we know in our mind if we reject God or not. And if we choose to miss Church because we choose to separate ourself from God only us and God can know for sure.

That is why the Catholic Church teaches us that in order for us to be in a state of Mortal Sin all of the conditions must apply.

Let me ask you this, and be honest with me. DO you think if I miss Church on Sunday for whatever reason it is, because what IS a good reason then. BUt lets just say this one sunday I don’t go to Church. CAN you say that I reject God? Yes or No?

I can say, if you don’t go to church on Sunday, have no reason not to go, but don’t go anyway knowing that it is a grave sin and fully understanding this, that you have met the criteria for mortal sin (grave matter, full knowledge, full consent). Now, you might try to rationalize that it’s no big deal. You might repent almost immediately. You might be very, very confused. But you have still met all three criteria, whatever you might do afterward.

And the biggest part of all is that whether or not you say to yourself, “I reject God”, IF you know that an action is gravely sinful and choose to do it anyway you are rejecting God by doing the action, whether you acknowledge it to yourself or not.

 

[SteveGC]

And the biggest part of all is that whether or not you say to yourself, “I reject God”, IF you know that an action is gravely sinful and choose to do it anyway you are rejecting God by doing the action, whether you acknowledge it to yourself or not.

Right, because “I reject God” is inferred if someone willfully and knowingly commits a sin which the Church, through Christ Himself, has taught us is grave matter.

Such a person atleast “rejects God” in that instant they committed the grave sin. Whether or not they ultimately reject God is a matter of repentance, which could be immediate or could be forever absent - or somewhere in between.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Right, because “I reject God” is inferred if someone willfully and knowingly commits a sin which the Church, through Christ Himself, has taught us is grave matter.

Such a person atleast “rejects God” in that instant they committed the grave sin. Whether or not they ultimately reject God is a matter of repentance, which could be immediate or could be forever absent - or somewhere in between.

Right. And I think we have been at great pains to say that it is only mortal sin unrepented at death through which a person chooses eternal hell. Because the person could repent immediately and (hopefully) seek sacramental confession to be assured of forgiveness, or have the HOPE of forgiveness if they repent but do not make it to sacramental confession before death.

And the Church quite correctly teaches that one UNREPENTED mortal sin can be the person’s freely chosen one-way ticket to a place even hotter than what we’ve been experiencing this summer. . .

And She also correctly teaches that missing Mass on a Sunday or Holy Day, even just ONE Mass, if it is missed knowing that this is a grave sin and yet is freely choosen, is a mortal sin. The person thus has the obligation to repent and seek confession as soon as possible so that he will avoid the consequence of mortal sin. The person as we said might repent almost immediately in which case he is still in mortal sin but is repentent and thus has HOPE for forgiveness even if he dies before he can go to sacramental confession.

 

[rinnie]

Bah.
When you die, Rinnie, and you look God in the face, He will say,“Rinnie, did you miss Mass knowingly? Did you miss knowing this was gravely wrong? Do you still not repent of missing this Mass and think that it is all right because you THINK you can sneak this by in saying you aren’t rejecting ME by defying my Church and breaking my commandments and doing something which gravely wounds and offends me and pretend you didn’t outright reject me?”

And your HEART will know that you are trying to play a ‘technicality’ and that yes, when you disobeyed God without ‘reason’ that you DID reject Him and you just tried not to ‘know’ although you knew in your heart and you were TOLD by many of your friends in the Church.

You guys are tough! I am saying that if you miss church just ONE time, you have not removed yourself completely from the Grace of God.

ONE time does not mean that you do it all the time. Can you honestly tell me that you believe that if you never missed Church in your life, and you miss ONE sunday or Holy day you have removed yourself from the Grace of God and cannot be deemed worthy for the Kingdom of God.

I am sorry guys I can’t see it. I am trying SO HARD to believe that God would not accept me for missing one sunday and would not know that in my heart I would never do anything to intentionally remove his Grace for my soul for any reason.

Lets go back to my question, if I miss church and know I should go. all Catholic’s know that. But if I miss one sunday and do not feel that I am commiting mortal sin against God who is to say that I am right or wrong, if the CHURCH itself teaches that only WE can judge if we are in the state of Mortal sin or not?

If the Church teaching itself on Mortal sin says only WE know our heart, and only GOD knows our heart, how can I be wrong if I say that I never intended to break my bond with Christ by missing just ONE Sunday or Holy Day?

 

[rinnie]

The question is incomplete.

We have to know if the reason was valid or not, and the Church gives guidance on this. The Church says it must be grave reasons, such as illness, caring for a seriously ill or dying person, no reasonable means to attend Mass, no Mass in a reasonable proximity to you. Short of these reasons, a priest would be the best guide to whether or not it was valid. “Blowing it off” is certainly invalid. Not going because you “just didn’t feel like it” is certainly invalid. I can tell you this…there are far more invalid reasons than valid ones when it comes to missing Mass. So when in doubt, it’s always best to assume it was invalid and confess it.

But we have to know the reasons someone missed Mass, before we can say if they reject God. If the reason was invalid, then yes, missing Mass is a rejection of God, because it’s a rejection of His Church’s dogma on morality.

Okay, then how can a Priest give me dispensation when I tell him I am going to miss Church on Sunday, say because I planned a trip and am going to be out on some cliff somewhere.

I know that I cannot attend mass, I tell Father I cannot attend Mass, how can Father say its okay then? If what you guys are saying its not okay and there must be a good reason.

I am not sick, it is my choice to go on the climb, say its been my dream and the opportunity came up, I saved all my life. Now what. I guess I better pray that I don’t fall because I am deemed for hell right

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well your projection of perception is a bit wrong by One Degree. And with responsible love and concern, the guys corrected it for you.

rinnie, fact is Most think they behave correctly who haven’t had someone aleady check the behavior at the door. They already bought the ticket[with their own thinking] and its been confirmed[either yes by negative, or no by the postive] and are going to take the flight, unless someone checks the behavior at the baggage claim, they are doomed. Its impossible to find your way out of a illusion you create without help.

Chance of one finding the way out of error they created is about 1 in a 100. If or not you choose to believe? That would be called, incorrect denial or acceptance of truth.. If or not it becomes a factor we do not know. The known is the 1 degree you are incorrect. how far that takes one off the final destination? Thats a guess.

But the responsible love and concern and willingness to apply it was here. So the truth has been established. And thus another truth becomes…you will at some point realize you can never tell youself that lie again. To enable the incorrect is to be willing to, in the end allow a corrupt society to exist.

Its no different than the little old lady who drinks a half/pint of Bourbon weekly, yet is socially correct with morals otherwise. The error=wrong =lie still exists.

btw I didn’t read but very little of this, but you un-intentionally missed Mass? So then what had to happen is you realized this after the mass etc. Which is really not the issue, since you can receive absolution. However when you rationalize this into believing it, once again you have started a new masterpiece, an illusion.

Peace

 

[TedDC]

Well your projection of perception is a bit wrong by One Degree. And with responsible love and concern, the guys corrected it for you.

rinnie, fact is Most think they behave correctly who haven’t had someone aleady check the behavior at the door. They already bought the ticket[with their own thinking] and its been confirmed[either yes by negative, or no by the postive] and are going to take the flight, unless someone checks the behavior at the baggage claim, they are doomed. Its impossible to find your way out of a illusion you create without help.

Chance of one finding the way out of error they created is about 1 in a 100. If or not you choose to believe? That would be called, incorrect denial or acceptance of truth.. If or not it becomes a factor we do not know. The known is the 1 degree you are incorrect. how far that takes one off the final destination? Thats a guess.

But the responsible love and concern and willingness to apply it was here. So the truth has been established. And thus another truth becomes…you will at some point realize you can never tell youself that lie again. To enable the incorrect is to be willing to, in the end allow a corrupt society to exist.

Its no different than the little old lady who drinks a half/pint of Bourbon weekly, yet is socially correct with morals otherwise. The error=wrong =lie still exists.

btw I didn’t read but very little of this, but you un-intentionally missed Mass? So then what had to happen is realized this after the mass etc. Which is really not the issue, since you can receive absolution. However when you rationalize this into believing it, once again you have started of a new masterpiece, an illusion.

Peace

Let’s face it, all those doctrines and dogmas and disciplines are just man-made stuff anyway. Men claiming to speak for God, but mere men nevertheless, .

 

[GaryTaylor]

I didn’t quote Bible/Doctrine you will notice, thats modern psychology and fact.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You guys are tough! I am saying that if you miss church just ONE time, you have not removed yourself completely from the Grace of God.

ONE time does not mean that you do it all the time. Can you honestly tell me that you believe that if you never missed Church in your life, and you miss ONE sunday or Holy day you have removed yourself from the Grace of God and cannot be deemed worthy for the Kingdom of God.

I am sorry guys I can’t see it. I am trying SO HARD to believe that God would not accept me for missing one sunday and would not know that in my heart I would never do anything to intentionally remove his Grace for my soul for any reason.

Lets go back to my question, if I miss church and know I should go. all Catholic’s know that. But if I miss one sunday and do not feel that I am commiting mortal sin against God who is to say that I am right or wrong, if the CHURCH itself teaches that only WE can judge if we are in the state of Mortal sin or not?

If the Church teaching itself on Mortal sin says only WE know our heart, and only GOD knows our heart, how can I be wrong if I say that I never intended to break my bond with Christ by missing just ONE Sunday or Holy Day?

Rinnie, if I mess this up it’s because I’m responding to try to keep myself from going crazy with worry, having just found out my daughter-in-law has been taken to the hospital and is in the ICU, and it’s like 600 miles away and I can’t do anything to help! except prayer and ask for prayers and try not to go all nuts. . .

But trying to focus.

It is not about whether you ‘feel’ like you’re commiting a sin. Feelings are notoriously poor guides.

You might not FEEL you’re commiting a sin when you kill somebody because hey, he’s a threat. Maybe a blackmailer. Killing him removes the threat to you, which is a good thing, so you don’t FEEL you did anything wrong especially because blackmail is a crime. (But you did commit a sin if you killed him despite how you ‘feel.’)

Actually, the Church does not even say that ‘only we can judge if we are in mortal sin’ as if we will always be right in our judgment. Because we are darn good at rationalizing. Some people (no I don’t mean you necessarily) aren’t very good at making a judgment because they get caught up in feelings.

God is the judge but He never said, "OK, people, here is the list of mortal sins. Remember, if you commit any of these, only YOU and I know if you’re REALLY sinning mortally when you kill, or abort, or have sex out of marriage, or miss Mass on Sunday deliberately. If anybody else sees you doing these things they cannot even tell you these are sinful actions because that means they are judging you and you, being such SPECIAL PEOPLE, can do these gravely sinful actions without having them be sins at all if you’re doing them but not --somehow–rejecting ME with a formal "I reject you God’ verbal injunction. "

How could the Church even say these actions were gravely sinful in themselves, Rinnie, if ‘only you’ know whether you’re doing them ‘out of rejection of God’ or out of some ‘other reason but that reason DOESN’T reject God?" (And HOW it could NOT reject God is beyond me. You’ll have to explain that to me.) How can the Church say an action is gravely wrong and you claim that it’s only wrong’ if you reject God’ as if the grave action ITSELF doesn’t reject God?

How can you think that saying, "God, I know missing Mass on Sunday is gravely wrong unless I have a good reason. I know that, I accept it as Catholic teaching which I am bound to obey. However, I just don’t want to go. No reason, nothing against YOU, buddy, but despite knowing that this is a grave matter which I am bound to obey unless I physically cannot do so or have a permission because I will be traveling, or have the responsibility of care for a dependent person and no one to relieve me, I just Do Not Choose To Obey You God though I know I should and you said it is very important to you. . .

How is this NOT a rejection of God? Really, how is it NOT? It’s saying, no matter what you want from me, God, I will NOT do it, and that’s it. I could, I should, but I won’t.

And that’s not rejection? If my kids tried to pull that on me, I’d know darn WELL they were rejecting my authority in favor of doing what they wanted, and I’d know that no matter what excuse they put forward, it all boils down to rejecting my legitimate authority (and me).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Okay, then how can a Priest give me dispensation when I tell him I am going to miss Church on Sunday, say because I planned a trip and am going to be out on some cliff somewhere.

I know that I cannot attend mass, I tell Father I cannot attend Mass, how can Father say its okay then? If what you guys are saying its not okay and there must be a good reason.

I am not sick, it is my choice to go on the climb, say its been my dream and the opportunity came up, I saved all my life. Now what. I guess I better pray that I don’t fall because I am deemed for hell right

Rinnie, this is really disingenuous of you. You know (and Father knows) that if it is not physically possible to attend Mass, then one cannot attend. The reason you get the dispensation is that NORMALLY you would be in town to attend and for this ‘week’ you’re on vacation. It’s a respectful thing to do.

I wish you would debate what is actually taught instead of coming up with these strawmen.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s face it, all those doctrines and dogmas and disciplines are just man-made stuff anyway. Men claiming to speak for God, but mere men nevertheless, .

I thought you’d show up, Ted. How about providing us with the proof (primary sources of course) for each and every doctrine and dogma and discipline of the Church which shows, infallibly, which has been ‘man-made’ and when, and which God-made.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

All right, trying to occupy my mind and not worry is not working. My apologies, friends, and any goofs I may have made in the last couple of posts please attribute to my mind not being 100% on this topic. .

I need to go off and pray for my family. Of your charity, if you have a moment to do so, would you pray as well?

Mortal sin is important, and I’m sure that God will help clarify in your mind if you open your heart to Him (and try not to get distracted by feelings too much). But charity and family and oh God trying to nerve oneself to accepting His will if what He wants is the life of a loved one is even more important.

God bless.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Rinnie, if I mess this up it’s because I’m responding to try to keep myself from going crazy with worry, having just found out my daughter-in-law has been taken to the hospital and is in the ICU, and it’s like 600 miles away and I can’t do anything to help! except prayer and ask for prayers and try not to go all nuts.

Sorry to hear, my prayers are with you.

God Bless, Gary

 

[TedDC]

I thought you’d show up, Ted. How about providing us with the proof (primary sources of course) for each and every doctrine and dogma and discipline of the Church which shows, infallibly, which has been ‘man-made’ and when, and which God-made.

On the contrary, the burden of proof rests with the Church to support its extraordinary claim that all of that paper was written by God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

On the contrary, the burden of proof rests with the Church to support its extraordinary claim that all of that paper was written by God.

Really this is a topic for another day. What you have somehow concluded is the Catholic Church is not the correct model of social living. Truth is many countrys have also came to the same conclusion. However, at the end of the day I fail to see who has devoloped a better model than the Catholic Church? Can you name one?

What I am talking about happens “after” the model is accepted, in this case the CC.

Then we reach a simple formula which states. When one is trapped in a world of perception, you are trapped in illusion. You cannot escape without help, because everything your sense’s show bear witness to the reality of the illusion you created. YOU CREATED IT by taking an established moral model then deciding “yourself” what was fact or fiction. The thinking that “others seem to think its OK” is of no consequence since they are merely validating the illusion.

This I would debate with you untill you comprehend or your mind becomes closed by incorrect denial.

I would also debate all day who in fact developed a moral model which has been more consistant than the Catholic Church over the past 2000-years. It certainly wouldn’t be the USA if thats what your thinking.

Topic for another day though.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, if I mess this up it’s because I’m responding to try to keep myself from going crazy with worry, having just found out my daughter-in-law has been taken to the hospital and is in the ICU, and it’s like 600 miles away and I can’t do anything to help! except prayer and ask for prayers and try not to go all nuts. . .

But trying to focus.

It is not about whether you ‘feel’ like you’re commiting a sin. Feelings are notoriously poor guides.

You might not FEEL you’re commiting a sin when you kill somebody because hey, he’s a threat. Maybe a blackmailer. Killing him removes the threat to you, which is a good thing, so you don’t FEEL you did anything wrong especially because blackmail is a crime. (But you did commit a sin if you killed him despite how you ‘feel.’)

Actually, the Church does not even say that ‘only we can judge if we are in mortal sin’ as if we will always be right in our judgment. Because we are darn good at rationalizing. Some people (no I don’t mean you necessarily) aren’t very good at making a judgment because they get caught up in feelings.

God is the judge but He never said, "OK, people, here is the list of mortal sins. Remember, if you commit any of these, only YOU and I know if you’re REALLY sinning mortally when you kill, or abort, or have sex out of marriage, or miss Mass on Sunday deliberately. If anybody else sees you doing these things they cannot even tell you these are sinful actions because that means they are judging you and you, being such SPECIAL PEOPLE, can do these gravely sinful actions without having them be sins at all if you’re doing them but not --somehow–rejecting ME with a formal "I reject you God’ verbal injunction. "

How could the Church even say these actions were gravely sinful in themselves, Rinnie, if ‘only you’ know whether you’re doing them ‘out of rejection of God’ or out of some ‘other reason but that reason DOESN’T reject God?" (And HOW it could NOT reject God is beyond me. You’ll have to explain that to me.) How can the Church say an action is gravely wrong and you claim that it’s only wrong’ if you reject God’ as if the grave action ITSELF doesn’t reject God?

How can you think that saying, "God, I know missing Mass on Sunday is gravely wrong unless I have a good reason. I know that, I accept it as Catholic teaching which I am bound to obey. However, I just don’t want to go. No reason, nothing against YOU, buddy, but despite knowing that this is a grave matter which I am bound to obey unless I physically cannot do so or have a permission because I will be traveling, or have the responsibility of care for a dependent person and no one to relieve me, I just Do Not Choose To Obey You God though I know I should and you said it is very important to you. . .

How is this NOT a rejection of God? Really, how is it NOT? It’s saying, no matter what you want from me, God, I will NOT do it, and that’s it. I could, I should, but I won’t.

And that’s not rejection? If my kids tried to pull that on me, I’d know darn WELL they were rejecting my authority in favor of doing what they wanted, and I’d know that no matter what excuse they put forward, it all boils down to rejecting my legitimate authority (and me).

Hey my Prayers You got them. I am SO sorry, I hope everything comes out okay with your daughter in law.

What I am trying to say here there are conditions on which Mortal sin occurs.

Now if I do not believe that the Church teaches that if you miss one sunday, have gone all of your life, and in your heart do not feel that you have deparated yourself from God I do not believe that mortal sin existed.

Now here is the problem we have here, you may be right, and if you are right, and I am wrong what was NOT mortal sin for me yesterday and now I know that I was W R O N G if I am it has now indeed became mortal sin.

I am not admitting my wrong yet!!! I know I read somewhere that Pope John Paull II said that missing mass One time does not account for mortal sin its venial, unless you continue to do so on a regular basis. If you Miss ONE sunday you are wounding your Grace with GOd by missing the Eucharist but hit the next sunday you have regained the saving Grace and have again become in Complete fullness with Christ once more.

I go to find it. If I cannot or am totally wrong I will admit it, But let me make sure that I am wrong here okay. Thats all I am saying.

Again prayers for the dear SIL…