Why do progressive Catholics stay in the Church?

[PAboy57]

This might be the answer to all the disagreement.

Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many go that way.

• Matthew 7,13

How narrow is the gate that leads to life and how rough the road; few there are who find it.

• Matthew 7,14

I used to question everything and somehow it hit me – if the church is infallible they cannot lie to me – so I have decided to jump on the wagon. I’m hoping it calms my mind and heart. Just my 2 cents.

I do enjoy reading all the comments and find you make many interesting points.

 

[MikeDunphy]

The nuns who supported healthcare when the bishops did not are part of the CC.

The nuns who supported subsidized baby slaughter when the bishops did not are part of the CC, God help us. Once again, progressive Catholics who could have been a decisive factor in the protection of innocent human life sided with the destroyers instead.

 

[CMatt25]

You list yourself as a Christian rather than as a Catholic, so I assume that you are not Catholic. The answer was not great, because it was not Catholic. It is not sufficient to have once been baptized to please Christ, nor is it sufficient to help the poor while allowing the most poor to be killed. Obedience and belief in the the teachings of the Church are an essential part of being Catholic, and these two parts of being Catholic are more than ignored in this post.

Surely you’re not saying It isn’t Catholic to serve the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless, to work for peace? Baptism is sufficient to make us members. The Church counts me among the billions. Peace.

 

[St_Francis]

Surely you’re not saying It isn’t Catholic to serve the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless, to work for peace? Baptism is sufficient to make us members. The Church counts me among the billions. Peace.

I most surely am *not *saying that. You seem to have misunderstood my post. I am re-posting it so you can try again

It is not sufficient to have once been baptized to please Christ, nor is it sufficient to help the poor while allowing the most poor to be killed. Obedience and belief in the the teachings of the Church are an essential part of being Catholic, and these two parts of being Catholic are more than ignored in this post.

 

[CMatt25]

I most surely am *not *saying that. You seem to have misunderstood my post. I am re-posting it so you can try again

It is not sufficient to have once been baptized to please Christ, nor is it sufficient to help the poor while allowing the most poor to be killed. Obedience and belief in the the teachings of the Church are an essential part of being Catholic, and these two parts of being Catholic are more than ignored in this post.

The question was why do people stay. And the answer is if some of us see enough good within to stay, Baptism is essential and sufficient to be considered a member of the Catholic Church. Perhaps with an adjective you might like to add, but nevertheless Catholic according to the Church. And of course being non-progressive does not exclude the possibilty of sin. Peace.

 

[St_Francis]

The question was why do people stay. And the answer is if some of us see enough good within to stay, Baptism is essential and sufficient to be considered a member of the Catholic Church. Perhaps with an adjective you might like to add, but nevertheless Catholic according to the Church. And of course being non-progressive does not exclude the possibilty of sin. Peace.

I guess I thought that the topic referred to those who are more actively Catholic, or actively progressive in the Church, like the politicians who go to Mass and women trying to get themselves ordained.

And we are all sinners–I don’t think that my comments implied that we aren’t.

 

[Bluegoat]

One thing that strikes me is that sometimes it seems af if the Church is trying to say to opposing things, and it leads to this kind of identification as Catholic, despite not actually believing Catholic teachings.

One often sees people say that a person who is Baptized a Catholic is always a Catholic, it is really emphasized. In fact, if a lapsed Catholic gets married outside the CC without a dispensation, he is considered to be flouting a rightful authority.

Well, if that is the case, then it seems that no matter what you actually think or feel, if you were baptized or raised Catholic, you are still a Catholic.

I suspect this kind of thinking leads to the other phenomena.

 

[St_Francis]

One thing that strikes me is that sometimes it seems af if the Church is trying to say to opposing things, and it leads to this kind of identification as Catholic, despite not actually believing Catholic teachings.

One often sees people say that a person who is Baptized a Catholic is always a Catholic, it is really emphasized. In fact, if a lapsed Catholic gets married outside the CC without a dispensation, he is considered to be flouting a rightful authority.

Well, if that is the case, then it seems that no matter what you actually think or feel, if you were baptized or raised Catholic, you are still a Catholic.

I suspect this kind of thinking leads to the other phenomena.

Yes, I assumed the OP was referring to people who are still involved in the Church, and CMatt seems to think that it refers to all those who have been baptized Catholic and who can therefore claim membership in the Church.

Since it is very difficult to get oneself recognized as non-Catholic, the default is to “remain in” the Church, but I know that before I returned to the Church neither I nor anyone else could have considered me a “member” except for that.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

St Francis

I like your signature remark by Bishop Sheen. Do you happen to have the passage in Scripture upon which it is based? I know it is when Judas urges Jesus to spend the money on the poor rather than on the perfume for anointing him.

Carl

 

[sedonaman]

Why do progressive Catholics stay in the Church?

I have wondered this for some time. I have even asked some of them and gotten only evasive answers, like “You’re telling me to leave the Church? That’s selfish!”

Here is where I’m coming from: Suppose I want to buy a new Chevy and go to the Ford dealer and demand he sell me a new Chevy, all the while there is a Chevy dealer down the street. I also demand he sell only Chevvies to his other customers. Now if I win in this hypothetical, there will be two Chevvy dealers and no Ford dealers to help those who believe Fords are better. Now, that’s selfish.

I detect this attitude in the linked article where the author says she has “…a resolve not to be shut out by those who say they are speaking in the name of the Father. We just don’t believe them.”

A priest once told me that if he became convinced that the Catholic Church no longer taught the truth, he would have a moral obligation to search for the truth elsewhere. We all have the same moral obligation: to search for the truth. So if they don’t believe the bishops are teaching the truth, they have an obligation to find it elsewhere.

She goes on to say that, “the Church is not an institution; it is the people.” What is lurking under this statement is the crux of the problem as I see it: how does one look at the Church? She obviously rejects the idea that it is an institution. I suspect that she is using the word “institution” in two different ways. If it is not an institution but people, is it just a social gathering of people? Do they share common beliefs? What is their mission? To teach; to govern?

Progressives say they want to progress, but to what end? To be able to sin without guilt? To find justification in their particular sin? If not, why all the progressive “Catholic” organizations calling for abortion, etc.? I hear some of them say they want to vote for their priests and bishops. Jesus gave his first apostles the mission to “Go forth into the world and proclaim the gospel, teaching all nations what I have taught you.” If that isn’t a teaching mission then what is it? If it is, then I ask the progressives if they elected their teachers and deans when they were students in school.

“…it is the people, people who are now wounded and scandalized, not only by the sexual crimes of priests, but more important, by the cover-up by those in power.”

Here is the Leftist thought: the only way to view the world is in terms of power, IOW, Machiavellian.

“In 1959 the election of Pope John XXIII was a surprise, a kind of miracle. It happened once. It could happen again. We wait, in stubborn hope, for the return of miracle.”

How does she know that the current pope is not that miracle? Here is what he had to say before he was pope:

“Results since the (Vatican II) Council, seem to be in cruel contrast to the expectations of all, beginning with those of John XXIII and Paul VI. The Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension that – to use the words of Paul VI – seems to have gone from self-criticism to self-destruction. A new enthusiasm was expected, but too often there has been boredom and discouragement instead. A new leap forward was expected, but instead we find ourselves facing a process of progressive decadence. It must be clearly stated that a real reform of the Church presupposes an unequivocal turning away from the erroneous paths that led to indisputably negative consequences.” – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

So I say they should go to the Chevvy dealer if they believe in Chevvies. But their refusal is an indication to me that Satan is at work in these groups.

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis

I like your signature remark by Bishop Sheen. Do you happen to have the passage in Scripture upon which it is based? I know it is when Judas urges Jesus to spend the money on the poor rather than on the perfume for anointing him.

Carl

St John 12, 3–8

In the other apparently similar passages, it is not specified that it is Judas who says that–in one it sounds like several of the Apostles murmured, and in another that some people thought it. And in those other passages, Judas leaves and goes to the High Priests to betray Christ right after the incident.

 

[Justin1982]

I would say that progressives in the Church merely want to “progress” the word of God into what aligns with their train of thought. Much like how they “progress” the U.S. Constitution into a document of massive government and limited power to the people. It seems their corruption has seeped into different layers of the Church and is affecting how we function as a whole. Personally I feel as though we need to start with ourselves, correct our deficiencies as people of Christ and then work our way outward from there. If we start at the root of the problem we won’t be at the surface playing political “whack-a-mole” with the issues as they arise. People will inherently understand that something is wrong with a particular group or figure and avoid it all together. To get away from my vagueness I’ll give you an example, if we had been a more responsible people in the 50’s and 60’s we wouldn’t have given way to contraception and abortion; now we have issues like infidelity on a massive scale and teenage pregnancy to name a couple.

I hope that I wasn’t too confusing, my thoughts seem to be coming out in jumbles today.

 

[Tigg]

From the article in the OP: "It is an error of vocabulary to assume that “the Church” is a direct synonym for “the hierarchy,” “the bishops,” “the Vatican.” (I could have guessed without looking that this article would be from the Huffington Post.)

Under usual conditions, of course, conservatives would not make this statement for they most normally submit their will and intellect to the Church, meaning the totality of that which has been handed down from the apostles and preserved by the Holy Spirit Himself. It is an act of obedience which recognizes the Kingship of Christ and believes within the depths of the heart that Revelation which they know to be true.

Perhaps this will help answer the question, harsh though the words may be:

The liberal Catholic assumes as the formal motive of the act of faith, not the infallible authority of God revealing supernatural truth, but his own reason deigning to accept as true what appears rational to him according to the appreciation and measure of his own individual judgment. He subjects God’s authority to the scrutiny of his reason, and not his reason to God’s authority. He accepts Revelation, not on account of the infallible Revealer, but because of the “infallible” receiver. With him the individual judgment is the rule of faith. He believes in the independence of reason. It is true he accepts the Magisterium of the Church, yet he does not accept it as the sole authorized expounder of divine truth. He reserves, as a coefficient factor in the determination of that truth, his own private judgment. The true sense of revealed doctrine to him is not always certain, and human reason therefore has something to say in the matter….

The liberal Catholic believes that no one can impose upon him any belief which his individual judgment does not measure as perfectly rational. ……What appears good he assents to, but he is intellectually bound to no one. Thus, unwittingly, he falls an easy victim to the snare set by the devil for the intellectually proud. ……liberal Catholics are deluded into the notion that incredulity is a virtue rather than a vice. They fail to see it an infirmity of the understanding, a voluntary blindness of the heart, and a consequent weakness of will. On the other hand, they look upon the skeptical attitude as a legitimate condition wherein intellectual freedom is preserved, the skeptic remaining master of himself to believe or deny.

Excerpt from the book, “Liberalism is a Sin”
By Father Felix Sarda Y Salvany
Published by B. Herder Books, 1899
**Nihil Obstat: ** F. G. Holweck
Censor Librorm
St. Louis, MO
06/26/1899

Imprimatur: John J. Kain
Archbishop of St. Louis
06/30/1899

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

I am goint to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points.

I would say that progressives in the Church merely want to “progress” the word of God into what aligns with their train of thought.Yes, I do agree that progress literally mean go forward. Most progressive Catholics are cradle Catholics and have spent a lifetime trying to move forward with the lessons we learned and this would coincide with our train of thought
Much like how they “progress” the U.S. Constitution into a document of massive government and limited power to the people.Most progressives agree that the Constitution is affirming individual rights and want to keep it that way. We have been complaining about the affront to the Constitution for a decade. The difference is that we actually know what the Contstitution says. It seems their corruption has seeped into different layers of the Church and is affecting how we function as a whole. Here, you lose me . I don’t know what you are referring to.Personally I feel as though we need to start with ourselves, correct our deficiencies as people of Christ and then work our way outward from there. I agree
If we start at the root of the problem we won’t be at the surface playing political “whack-a-mole” with the issues as they arise. People will inherently understand that something is wrong with a particular group or figure and avoid it all together. I agree education is the best solution To get away from my vagueness I’ll give you an example, if we had been a more responsible people in the 50’s and 60’s we wouldn’t have given way to contraception and abortion; now we have issues like infidelity on a massive scale and teenage pregnancy to name a couple. These issues have been here longer than you think.

Thank you for your response.

I hope that I wasn’t too confusing, my thoughts seem to be coming out in jumbles today.

So do my thoughts, let’s forgive each other.

 

[Tigg]

…Judas Iscariot, the Patron Saint of Social Justice, where people are concerned with humanity but ignore the truths of God…—Bishop Fulton Sheen

Wow, St. Francis…I’m glad someone drew attention to your sig - in purple, no less, and I didn’t see it, but I love it and wholeheartedly agree! Sad to say, that is another element of progressivism - more concern with secular humanism than the eternal salvation of the soul.

 

[St_Francis]

Wow, St. Francis…I’m glad someone drew attention to your sig - in purple, no less, and I didn’t see it, but I love it and wholeheartedly agree! Sad to say, that is another element of progressivism - more concern with secular humanism than the eternal salvation of the soul.

I guess this is the right thread for people to notice my sig line

 

[CesarAugustus]

Hmmm, for me a progressive is someone akin to a follower of the Liberation Theology

Why they stay?

Read the Books of Ricardo de La Cierva

They want the Church modeled after their doctrines

And another thing, one can be a Orthodox Catholic and still care for Social Justice

You can protect the poor after and before birth

And you should provide they of Faith too

Happy Resurrection Easter!!!

Blessings!

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

From the article in the OP: "It is an error of vocabulary to assume that “the Church” is a direct synonym for “the hierarchy,” “the bishops,” “the Vatican.” (I could have guessed without looking that this article would be from the Huffington Post.)

Under usual conditions, of course, conservatives would not make this statement for they most normally submit their will and intellect to the Church, meaning the totality of that which has been handed down from the apostles and preserved by the Holy Spirit Himself. It is an act of obedience which recognizes the Kingship of Christ and believes within the depths of the heart that Revelation which they know to be true.

Perhaps this will help answer the question, harsh though the words may be:

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Pardon me for noticing that you do have your buzz words here, namely liberation theology socialism, and some guy I never heard of.
Tigg, I tried to quote you and my post was messed up. Are you quoting someone from the 1890"s who is defining “liberalism”/

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Hmmm, for me a progressive is someone akin to a follower of the Liberation Theology

Why they stay?

Read the Books of Ricardo de La Cierva

They want the Church modeled after their doctrines

And another thing, one can be a Orthodox Catholic and still care for Social Justice

You can protect the poor after and before birth

And you should provide they of Faith too

Happy Resurrection Easter!!!

Blessings!

I don’t think anyone will ague with you.