Why do Protestant believe Purgatory is a 2nd chance?

[SteveVH]

I teach that God has two attributes. One is His Justice and the other is His Mercy. God uses both attributes to save us. The Roman Catholic Church offers teachings on Purgatory for she developed it because of her understanding of God’s attribute on Justice. In a way of defining Purgatory one can say that it is God’s saving Justice in action. God can save us through His Justice and Mercy.

As a Catholic, my view is that purgatory is the mercy of God. Purgatory is not a punishment, it is a state of purification. The pain that we will feel is absolute sorrow and contrition for offending God, even in the slightest way, when we come to a true understanding of our sins. And we will have glimpsed what awaits us and will have a longing for union with God that is beyond all human understanding. This again is pain we will feel. But we also receive consolations while we are there and are full of hope.

 

[chimo]

As a Catholic, my view is that purgatory is the mercy of God. Purgatory is not a punishment, it is a state of purification. The pain that we will feel is absolute sorrow and contrition for offending God, even in the slightest way, when we come to a true understanding of our sins. And we will have glimpsed what awaits us and will have a longing for union with God that is beyond all human understanding. This again is pain we will feel. But we also receive consolations while we are there and are full of hope.

Justice here does not refer to punishment but as a saving Grace. If you wish you can call Purgatory a delayed form of Mercy. The possibility of someone glorifying God immediately after death when they did hardly anything in their life came to me that this person still needs time to think this out. God gives to this person this necessary time so that eventually the person may learn to Glorify God. In this instance a disciplinarian act is necessary to help this person. Discipline is what I mean when I say God offers His Justice to help save us.

 

[SteveVH]

Justice here does not refer to punishment but as a saving Grace. If you wish you can call Purgatory a delayed form of Mercy. The possibility of someone glorifying God immediately after death when they did hardly anything in their life came to me that this person still needs time to think this out. God gives to this person this necessary time so that eventually the person may learn to Glorify God. In this instance a disciplinarian act is necessary to help this person. Discipline is what I mean when I say God offers His Justice to help save us.

I don’t think we are far apart, but I would not refer to purgatory as “delayed mercy”. It is through God’s mercy that we will be there in the first place as we are not fit to enter into heaven. Justice says we are not worthy (and, indeed, we are not). Mercy says I will purify you and I will make you worthy. His mercy is stronger than his justice.

 

[Daizies]

How I explained purgatory to a protestant friend was like this:
Imagine that you are invited to a fancy banquet at the palace of a King. The only thing is - you spend all day shoveling manure, so you need to get cleaned up before you go. Purgatory is the place where you clean off all the manure of life before going to see the King. Only those invited go there to clean up (just as only those destined for heaven go to purgatory). Even though getting clean can be painful, you are happy to do it, as you wouldn’t want to appear in the palace covered in manure.

 

[chimo]

I don’t think we are far apart, but I would not refer to purgatory as “delayed mercy”. It is through God’s mercy that we will be there in the first place as we are not fit to enter into heaven. Justice says we are not worthy (and, indeed, we are not). Mercy says I will purify you and I will make you worthy. His mercy is stronger than his justice.

Steve I think you are referring to sins that can do that to a person. Not everyone falls into heavy sins. The Eastern Church tends not to go into that direction for instance to those who have never committed any serious sins. It is my belief that we are saved through both His Justice and Mercy, in fact one can lead you to the other. I do not refer to God’s Justice as His final Justice that is His punishment for instance to close the doors which for example will be His 2nd Coming or when a soul totally refuses the grace of God but to a discipline that can correct us. Here Justice or discipline is corrected love in action. We forget that God is both Just and Merciful and we tend to only think of His Mercy. We forget that God needs to correct us just like our own fathers would and this type of action is not mercy only but is a corrected action that can be His discipline. Now this type of action from God tends to be with the chosen souls who do not actually need His Mercy as much as do heavy sinners but they the souls who delight Him and are corrected often through His Discipline.

It is true that souls in Purgatory need His Mercy but unless there is a discipline there as well the souls will not benefit from this type of action. Mercy is great but so is discipline. We need both if we are to be saved. Just think to your own life where discipline and mercy are both given out.

It is to my psychological understanding and observations that God’s two best attributes are more defined in the two Churches of both East and West. To my surprise I found the Eastern Church more toward the direction in giving out God’s Mercy and the Catholic Church more toward the direction of giving out God’s Discipline. That is actually good for our Churches are really good in giving out God in His total perspective. What we can learn about this is to balance our own gift to what the other can give to us. The Eastern Church while it offers more leaning towards the Mercy of God can learn from the Catholic Church what it takes to give out discipline. This is one area where the Eastern Church is lacking and it is the Catholic Church which can help us in this area.

The Catholic Church while she is centered more in giving out the Discipline of God can learn from the East how to balance it more in understanding God’s Mercy. The Eastern Church is very gifted in this area and her gifts in this area can give to her sister Church this important perspective. These attributes of God while they are gifted either in one Church or another teaches us that by balancing these teachings by which each Church was given we can acheive that balance by which God has within Himself. Since one Church or the other leans towards one of the saving attributes of God it is therefore reasonably good to explore the teachings of both Churches, to suscribe them into your life. This unity of teachings will make us better informed to give out Discipline and Mercy in accordance to what God does.

From your words Steve we are probably saying the same thing. You use Mercy where I use Discipline and so on. I don’t disagree with you at all. I find Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church an incredible people and witness that God has given for us. I have learned much by being with Roman Catholics and the Church of Rome is indeed an important beacon we need to be a sure guidepost for our lives. She has many answers to the many questions that are asked today. I have also to my credit learned much from the Eastern Church which was another guidepost for me as for many others. However my experiences in living in both East and West has told me that we have much to do to bring East and West together. I am hopeful with much optitism that we heading toward a more understanding of each other and towards a better future. You would not have much understanding today of Purgatory from the Orthodox years ago yet today this is changing and I am one of those Orthodox who sees Purgatory as important enough to teach.

 

[batman1973]

Wait, you mean it’s not a money making scheme? Jack Chick lied to me? My world is now shattered.

Okay. Now that the nonsense is outta my system, I don’t think Purgatory is a second chance. I may not agree with the teaching, but I understand the theology behind it.
Those in Purgatory are heaven bound, and are assured a place in Heaven. Mormonism, on the other hand, has “Spirit Prison” which is a alleged second chance.

 

[CopticChristian]

Interesting. I don’t know any protestants who have a belief in purgatory at all. At death it’s a yes or no proposition with no middle ground as it were.

East,

How many Protestants do you know in comparison to the total number in the world?

 

[Porknpie]

Sort of.
There’s no middle ground for Catholics, either. Purgatory is preparation for Heaven, essentially. If you’re in Purgatory, you’re going to Heaven.
Lutherans believe that we are purged, cleansed, prior to entering Heaven, but do not hold to the idea of a state/place. The Lutheran reformers’ biggest concern was the practices that grew up around the belief in Purgatory - indulgences and the like.

Jon

Jon…in the Lutheran belief, where are our souls when they are purged, cleansed prior to heaven? Certainly not on earth and certainly not in heaven.

The catechism below…only a few paragraphs discuss purgatory. It doesn’t say much about the “where” or “time” dimensions, nor does it say that we would rather be on earth than in purgatory, being closer to God.

I don’t think we are far apart here…but you tell me.

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[intercessory]

AS A FORMER CATHOLIC… i learned purgatory indeed as a second chance… and have to pay indulgences and prayer petitions for the soul of the person… make no sense…

 

[Porknpie]

AS A FORMER CATHOLIC… i learned purgatory indeed as a second chance… and have to pay indulgences and prayer petitions for the soul of the person… make no sense…

Intercessory…then you can read the catechism above and know the Truth.

Makes sense?

 

[Georgia]

I simply cannot see how Purgatory could be viewed as being a second chance. Those who die outside God’s friendship and grace are damned. They are not headed for purification. They will never enter Heaven.

I was in a fundamentalist church for the first thirty-plus years of my life. We believed that anyone who sincerely said a sinner’s prayer and believed would be in Heaven the moment of death. Our church never mentioned Purgatory or any process of purification after death, much less claiming it was a second chance. We quoted “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” The only belief about things being different for those we called backsliders was that their reward would be lesser in Heaven. For example, someone who had a salvation experience as a child, grew into adulthood, lived a long and healthy life, but never set foot in a church again, our beliefs taught that person would go straight into Heaven. We had no concept of purifying the sinful parts of our nature before going through the gates.

This discussion has surprised me quite a bit. I never knew that anyone would or could see the doctrine as a second chance. I still don’t.

 

[rcwitness]

Intercessory…then you can read the catechism above and know the Truth.

Makes sense?

This is the essence of the OP put to the test. So many difficult doctrines are easily misunderstood because, like many realize, there is poor teaching but also a spirit that desires fault to be in the Church’s teaching. This breaks the person free from responsibility to
put themselves and what they can only understand with intelect aside and use faith to lead them.
Jesus made a question to a teacher of the law, if he cannot understand things pertaining to this life how how will he accept things about heaven. Protestants refrain from any doctrine that is difficult to understand. As though they should naturally understand the entire sphere of God without the need to accept some things as mystery. I accept the doctrine of purgatory because I see the spirit of its teaching is sound. The rest comes with study, and prayer and looking with a humble heart.
The teaching on purgatory specifically pertains to after death, but the spirit of it is not restricted to after death. God is purifying us since we first believed. We are departing from evil as we are drawn closer to Him. This has an element of pain and sorrow to it, as well as a peace and joy. With much wisdom comes much sorrow.

Michael

 

[JonNC]

Jon…in the Lutheran belief, where are our souls when they are purged, cleansed prior to heaven? Certainly not on earth and certainly not in heaven.

The catechism below…only a few paragraphs discuss purgatory. It doesn’t say much about the “where” or “time” dimensions, nor does it say that we would rather be on earth than in purgatory, being closer to God.

I don’t think we are far apart here…but you tell me.

At the moment of death, we are cleansed to enter Heaven.
I had an interesting chat a few years ago with a Traditional Anglican priest, who spoke of the “rooms” of Heaven, etc. For me, to speak of either on earth of in heaven kind of limits Christ to a sort of space/time framework. Its safe to say, therefore, I don’t know.

I think where the Refomers differed was with the indulgences, masses for the dead, etc.
From the recent Lutheran Catholic ecumenical document, *The Hope For Eternal Life *:

Luther added a discussion of the authority of Augustine claimed for the doctrine. “When they have given up their purgatorial ‘Mass fairs’ (something Augustine never dreamed of), then we will discuss with them whether St. Augustine’s word, lacking support from Scripture, may be tolerated and whether the dead may be commemorated at the sacrament. It will not do to formulate articles of faith on the basis of the holy Fathers’ works or words” (§14f). **The existence of purgatory is not dogmatically denied. Rather, 1) the existence of purgatory is not taught by Scripture and thus cannot be binding doctrine, and 2) belief in purgatory is now hopelessly bound up with unacceptable practices. A belief that could be discussed in principle is concretely objectionable because of its associations.

1. These associations, however, were not just with what could be called abuses, but with the developed penitential system and the idea that satisfactions were still owed for forgiven sins. That the justified must still suffer for their sins, even for forgiven sins, was not denied by the Reformers.**202 Such sufferings are not, however, rightly understood as satisfactions. "This whole theory [of satisfactions] is a recent fiction fabricated without the authority of the Scriptures or the ancient writers of the church. Not even Peter Lombard speaks this way about satisfactions

I think, in a nutshell, the bolded explains a large part of our differences. But to answer your question, I would say no, we are not far a part, but the distance to cover is deep, if not far.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

At the moment of death, we are cleansed to enter Heaven.

That’s very interesting. So you do believe that we are in need of purification after death (in the great majority of cases) in order to enter into heaven, but that this happens in the “twinkling of an eye”, so to speak. I’m not sure this is any different, in reality, than the Catholic view. The reason I say this is that once we leave this earth we have entered into eternity, beyond time and space. So we really can’t say that someone will be in purgatory for “a hundred years”. Of course, we have had saints who have received visions and when they try to put into human terms what they have seen, it is sometimes described in terms of years, but only because we have no other way of speaking. We believe that purification is a process and in our human minds a process automatically means a span of time. Now I’m starting to ramble, but I hope you see where I’m going here.

 

[JonNC]

That’s very interesting. So you do believe that we are in need of purification after death (in the great majority of cases) in order to enter into heaven, but that this happens in the “twinkling of an eye”, so to speak. I’m not sure this is any different, in reality, than the Catholic view. The reason I say this is that once we leave this earth we have entered into eternity, beyond time and space. So we really can’t say that someone will be in purgatory for “a hundred years”. Of course, we have had saints who have received visions and when they try to put into human terms what they have seen, it is sometimes described in terms of years, but only because we have no other way of speaking. We believe that purification is a process and in our human minds a process automatically means a span of time. Now I’m starting to ramble, but I hope you see where I’m going here.

Sure I do, Steve. Time is a mutual point of reference for us. So is a space/location. So, it is natural that we would talk like this. I also think the way Catholics talk about Prugatory today is significantly different than they did during the Reformation era - I’m think Tetzel and the like.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Sure I do, Steve. Time is a mutual point of reference for us. So is a space/location. So, it is natural that we would talk like this. I also think the way Catholics talk about Prugatory today is significantly different than they did during the Reformation era - I’m think Tetzel and the like.

Jon

Absolutely!

 

[Porknpie]

That’s very interesting. So you do believe that we are in need of purification after death (in the great majority of cases) in order to enter into heaven, but that this happens in the “twinkling of an eye”, so to speak. I’m not sure this is any different, in reality, than the Catholic view. The reason I say this is that once we leave this earth we have entered into eternity, beyond time and space. So we really can’t say that someone will be in purgatory for “a hundred years”. Of course, we have had saints who have received visions and when they try to put into human terms what they have seen, it is sometimes described in terms of years, but only because we have no other way of speaking. We believe that purification is a process and in our human minds a process automatically means a span of time. Now I’m starting to ramble, but I hope you see where I’m going here.

Jon,

Likewise…it’s interesting in a positive way. I thought before that we weren’t very far apart…your saying this makes me feel even more so. Somehow, ignorantly so, I thought the Lutheran belief is that our sin is covered and not simply cleansed from our souls. I’m confused as to why what I’ve heard is different that what you are saying. Most coming from Lutheran relatives and perhaps inaccurate Catholic view of Lutheran theology.

So I’m encouraged…

• you are saying that sin is actually cleansed and not covered.
• you are open to where & how…space and time being a mystery…

True?

If space and time are a mystery…why can’t prayers for the dead to decrease the “time”, speeding up this process. We Catholics can point to scripture in this … as I know you know…

Pork.

(ps…my 12 year old not feeling well today…please say a prayer for her… )

 

[mark_a]

I was also told that Catholics prayed for the souls in heaven in the hope that God would change His mind and let them into heaven.

Could you explain the above for me?

 

[intercessory]

Where purgatory started??? and who said it? and would anyone explain me what purgatory is all about? Thanks…

 

[adf417]

Where purgatory started??? and who said it? and would anyone explain me what purgatory is all about? Thanks…

2 Sam 12:13-14
2 Macc 12:42-46
1 Cor 3:10-15
1 Cor 15:29-30
1 Pet 1:3-7, 18-20, 4:6
Rev 21:27

If you confess your sins regularly then by definition of “regularly” you are admitting you are unclean to some extent sense your last confession. If you have made good and perfect confessions and have completely cleansed your conscience of any sin you may not go through purgatory but straight to heaven. But say, if you die between confessions with sin on your soul, a sin you will be confessing at some point but just have not quite taken that opportunity as of that moment, you surely will be given an opportunity (in purgatory).

Peace and Grace!!!