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Izdaari
Guest
I agree, there is no good reason not to learn about them. But in Evangelical Protestant circles, it isn’t part of the teaching. It isn’t forbidden, it just isn’t ever mentioned. :sad_yes:
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exnihilo
Guest
I have a few guesses. The first is simple historical ignorance. In my opinion the average American (and I’ll limit this to America) is dreadfully ignorant of history of any kind. They are no more ignorant of the saints then they are any set of historical figures.
The second is related and is modern pride. Modern man figures himself to be the most perfect generation. We seem to have difficultly imagining our supposedly ignorant and superstitious forefathers could have insight into much of anything. They suffered from a serious lack of science.
The third is that the sectarian nature of Protestantism causes it to focus more on the life and teachings of founders and members of their particular tradition. This makes sense since the justification for the existence of a division is mainly based on truth claims which are unique to the group.
The second is related and is modern pride. Modern man figures himself to be the most perfect generation. We seem to have difficultly imagining our supposedly ignorant and superstitious forefathers could have insight into much of anything. They suffered from a serious lack of science.
The third is that the sectarian nature of Protestantism causes it to focus more on the life and teachings of founders and members of their particular tradition. This makes sense since the justification for the existence of a division is mainly based on truth claims which are unique to the group.
I’m not sure what the teachings are of different evangelical leaders but it seems to me the common man has a sense that his loved ones are watching over him. You certainly hear people make remarks about this. I imagine the popular sentiment might be more on the side of those who have given up this mortal body being able to know about things on Earth. If complete severance of the Church Triumphant from the Church Militant is theological doctrine I’d say understanding might be out of step with the teaching.
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robertericleech
Guest
One good way of explaining the Communion of Saints to a protestant is this: Ask them if they’ve ever asked another member of their church to pray for them. Most protestants have done this. Then explain that when Catholics pray to a saint,* we’re just asking a member of the Church, who is already in heaven*, to pray to God for us. There is nothing idolatrous about that.
You have to remember though that to a protestant, the externals of venerating a saint can look suspiciously idolatrous outwardly. I am a convert, and the first time I walked into a Catholic church and saw a little old lady kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, I understood how doing that in the wrong way or not understanding it properly could be considered idolatry.
You have to remember though that to a protestant, the externals of venerating a saint can look suspiciously idolatrous outwardly. I am a convert, and the first time I walked into a Catholic church and saw a little old lady kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, I understood how doing that in the wrong way or not understanding it properly could be considered idolatry.
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andrewstx
Guest
A big part of the difference that hasn’t been mentioned is that Catholics and Evangelicals define the word Saint differently.
To evangelicals a saint is any Christian and we are all saints, they dont see the difference between a saint and a Saint.
A good example is the Mormons, by them any baptised Mormon is a saint, and that is where the get thier official name: “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.
I was originally Episcopal and they as usual try to bridge the diffence between evangelicals and Catholics.
I remember a hymn we sang for All Saints Day: “I sing a song of the saints of God, patient and brave and true…and one was a builder and one was a queen, and one was a sheeperdess on the green…they were all of them saints of God, and I hope God willing to be one too”.
You can see it in the church kalendar as well, red letter Saints days. and others on the kalendar without Saint preceding the names.
Like Ghandi, Florence Nightingale, and Martin Luther King.
To evangelicals a saint is any Christian and we are all saints, they dont see the difference between a saint and a Saint.
A good example is the Mormons, by them any baptised Mormon is a saint, and that is where the get thier official name: “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.
I was originally Episcopal and they as usual try to bridge the diffence between evangelicals and Catholics.
I remember a hymn we sang for All Saints Day: “I sing a song of the saints of God, patient and brave and true…and one was a builder and one was a queen, and one was a sheeperdess on the green…they were all of them saints of God, and I hope God willing to be one too”.
You can see it in the church kalendar as well, red letter Saints days. and others on the kalendar without Saint preceding the names.
Like Ghandi, Florence Nightingale, and Martin Luther King.
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cath4alltime
Guest
Many help shaped Christianity not just those declared saints
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smp501
Guest
Back when I was a Calvinist I was taught that all people are equally sinful (total depravity) and that Christians were only Christians because God hand-picked them. The closest things we had to saints were people like Charles Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards (e.g. Reformed preachers).
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chrisb
Guest
It goes further than that.
Most modern protestant denominations claim Sola Gracia (Grace alone)… and this typically means ‘(name removed by moderator)uted righteousness’… and not ‘infused’ righteousness.
The teaching of ‘(name removed by moderator)uted righteousness’ means that one is saved through no other reason than God has ‘changed’ that individuals ‘legal standing’ and thus there is no actual righteousness within the individual. Grace in this Reformed Doctrine is simply God’s Favor toward the individual to in effect ‘change’ his/her legal status from ‘damned’ to ‘saved’… thus Saints are not seen as examples of virtue by simply examples of God’s Favor alone.
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rinnie
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Me neither.
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Prosmith
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I do agree and I do appreciate how you said MOST Protestants and not Protestants period. We Anglicans talk much about the saints.
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AlwaysCurious
Guest
Good post. I agree, especially with the third point. I grew up among Quakers; we ignored all history between the end of the book of Acts and the arrival of George Fox in the 1600s. Our “saints” (we would never have used that word) were people like Fox, Woolman, Penn, and so forth. It’s as much a cultural thing as anything–you want to have pride in your religious/family identity, in how you were raised. One easy way to accomplish that is to ignore everyone else.
Your second point reminds me of Chesterton’s definition of tradition: the democracy of the dead. The fact that people aren’t walking and breathing on this earth doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care about what they thought and did.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I went to a priest friend’s ordination as bishop. The Litany of the Saints was sung, they in heaven present at his ordination. We had a big crowd at the cathedral…It was similar to John Paul II’s funeral where many asked what that song prayer was…and conversions came.
The big joke of the day was that just about everybody was there that day except our Carmelite nuns up in Shoreline.
The big joke of the day was that just about everybody was there that day except our Carmelite nuns up in Shoreline.
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Kristin234
Guest
The reason we don’t talk about saints that much is simple really. The Bible tells us that all believers are saints. So, we see every Christian as a saint.
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MollyMac
Guest
I did not take the time to read all the posts. If I repeat what anyone else has posted, I beg your pardon. Coming from both protestant and catholic background I will say that my protestant family members and the churches I have attended have talked a great deal about saints. The saints that are in the Bible. Especially the ‘heroes of the faith’ in Hebrews. The disciples were brought up, Paul, the Old Testement/Covenant men and women, they were all brought up in sermons and homelife throughout my life. The main focus was always on Jesus though, the sermon always pointed to Christ and His work. How we are conformed to be like HIM. Not to mention that according to protestant beliefs, all believers are all “saints” with souls and while on earth all believers fall short of the glory of God, so that is why protestants focus on Jesus as the One to look to and strive to be like and not men/women.
That’s fine, Kristin, and I agree, but it isn’t the Sainthood that necessarily matters. It is the example they set. Why not talk about those men and women throughout the history of the Church who are such wonderful examples of faith and hope and trust and love, and indeed action? Why not talk about the martyrs of the faith in the early Church?
ISTM that every young Christian should learn about the martyrs and saints of the Church, so they have some exceptional historical models of the Godly life.
Jon
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have heard a number of non-denominational ecclesias focus soley on those of the Just in the Old Testament.
But as they are not in the fullness of the universal Church, they have no documentation of any saintly Christian as we would do.
This I think is due to their conviction of Bible Alone. So the only saints they recognize are those of the Old Testament. I see it as a weakness on their part that belief in Christ in their way has brought no public saints in 2000 years that we can draw on, only stories and reflections on those in the Old Testament.
This to me indicates a limiting of the power and grandeur Jesus Christ is and how He has transformed countless lives who have given glory to Him and to fellow believers down through the ages.
But as they are not in the fullness of the universal Church, they have no documentation of any saintly Christian as we would do.
This I think is due to their conviction of Bible Alone. So the only saints they recognize are those of the Old Testament. I see it as a weakness on their part that belief in Christ in their way has brought no public saints in 2000 years that we can draw on, only stories and reflections on those in the Old Testament.
This to me indicates a limiting of the power and grandeur Jesus Christ is and how He has transformed countless lives who have given glory to Him and to fellow believers down through the ages.
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Rigel2
Guest
Thank you Kristin. If one has acces to a Bible software programme, then it is a simple matter to put the word “saint” into the search engine and find that you are absolutely correct. There were no Roman Catholics or any other denominations at the time of the Apostles, all were Christians, all were Saints (some of whom were martyrs). Since neither God nor Christ change, then when we come down to today the same must apply to all Christians since it is the spirit of God that makes us a Christian.
Cheers.
Welcome to CAF, Rigel2.Thank you Kristin. If one has acces to a Bible software programme, then it is a simple matter to put the word “saint” into the search engine and find that you are absolutely correct. There were no Roman Catholics or any other denominations at the time of the Apostles, all were Christians, all were Saints (some of whom were martyrs). Since neither God nor Christ change, then when we come down to today the same must apply to all Christians since it is the spirit of God that makes us a Christian.
Cheers.
I will ask the same question of you that I did Kristin:
It is the example they (the saints) set. Why not talk about those men and women throughout the history of the Church who are such wonderful examples of faith and hope and trust and love, and indeed action? Why not talk about the martyrs of the faith in the early Church?
ISTM that every young Christian should learn about the martyrs and saints of the Church, so they have some exceptional historical models of the Godly life.
What say you?
Jon
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kbf1970060
Guest
I may have missed the following answer in a previous post in this thread, still, more experienced Catholics in past years, have said, when asked or confronted about prayers to saints; rather than answer the question; the question has been asked: why do you pray, (Assuming a deceased friend, family member, or presuming one will have one in the future.), why do you / will you pray to your family member, or friend, (Now deceased.)? The point, people do talk to the dead, and presumably those whom are both dead, and in heaven – so: the answer to the question – protestant denominations hardly talk about saints, because they may be prefer to spend more time talking to them, rather than about them; although, I trust: time is spent talking about their deceased, or whom will be deceased, friend, family member, or other such relatives.
I like talking about Aristotle. I do not know that God judged, that he should spend the remainder of his immortality in hell, but I like what he did on earth, with respect to logic, and teaching brutish tyrants, and The Catholic Church has substantially persisted toward carrying the works of Aristotle forward, through the millenia.
I would like the author of The Big Bang and The Expanding Universe to be thought of as a saint, and a Catholic one, but possibly God has him chasing light to the further reaches of the universe, rather than students grappling with physics.
I like talking about Aristotle. I do not know that God judged, that he should spend the remainder of his immortality in hell, but I like what he did on earth, with respect to logic, and teaching brutish tyrants, and The Catholic Church has substantially persisted toward carrying the works of Aristotle forward, through the millenia.
I would like the author of The Big Bang and The Expanding Universe to be thought of as a saint, and a Catholic one, but possibly God has him chasing light to the further reaches of the universe, rather than students grappling with physics.
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Rigel2
Guest
It seems to me to be a matter of perspective. The Roman Catholics tend to have this view of other Christian denominations simply because the others do not accept Roman Catholic authority over who is and who is not a Saint – this is the province of God and He makes one a Saint through the gift of His Holy Spirit. All the churches in the days of the Apostles were called churches of the Saints. There were no Roman Catholics around at that time, all were Saints. Since God and Christ do not change (I will not presume to quote Scripture unless you so desire), then the situation has not changed – all Christians are Saints as they all have the Holy Spirit from God as they did anciently.
Concerning other examples (named by God, but unnamed by the church), I wholeheartedly agree that much can be learned, examples followed and values restored. Some names that come to mind are Peter Waldo (restoring fundamental Christianity in France ca 1177); Henry V, who gave all credit to God in his battles against the French and throughout his life the two kingdoms were united and at peace; Clement of Rome, a great favourite of mine who continually reminded the various congregations of their real origins and duties as Christians; Cardinal Schönborn a great Roman Catholic researcher and scholar whom I frequently mention in concert with Clement of Rome. Note Clement of Rome (taught by the Apostles themselves) not to be confused with the much later Clement of Alexandria. Also, I would be remiss in not mentioning Polycarp and polycrates, both of whom argued for the Faith delivered by the Apostles.
What do I say? The young need to be taught about every good thing for which various entities throughout history were responsible. I also say that a new thread along these lines may be very enjoyable and enlightening.
Cheers.
PS: I will be away for the next two weeks working out in the country, so please be patient with responses.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Kristen and others…you are looking at Scriptures at their beginning in referencing the saints.
Many were already being persecuted and martyred, St. Stephen being the first martyr, with St. Paul attending. But what you are missing completely is the the lives of the saints.
Where is the witness of faith???
There were Christians in Rome and elsewhere who went about tearing down pagan Roman statues, and they thought they were saints. When they were executed, the Church --where is it?..did not call them saints, but called their actions ‘suicide’.
So early on, very early on…look at St. Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthians, to those committing sexual sins, to those seeking placement of honor at church assemblies in the houses of the rich who were the norm of Christian gatherings with the poor in the courtyards, to unbecoming behavior in receiving the Eucharist.
You do not know about the saints who were martyred, including early popes…I think of St. Barbara, St Cecilia…committed virgins…the diary/testimony of SS Perpetua and Felicity in Carthage around 200 AD was absolutely electrifying…also mentioning their Christian friend Saturn, the dreams they had prior to their martyrdom while in prison, was so real, reading it was akin to watching it on film. There are some sites online who have Perpetua’s complete diary, which is what I read.
There are saints whose lives were so holy, their bodies are incorruptible…the most famous is St. Bernadette of Lourdes, France. St. Dominic and other saints raised people from the dead. And likewise, the saints’ lives are highly documented so we can learn from them.
I think the devotion to the communion of saints keeps our focus on growing in Christ. There is so much here in our faith that our Protestant brothers and sisters are literally being kept away from.
I have a copy of Butler’s “Lives of the Saints” in my home. I read the lives of the saints to my children when they were young, and loved hearing about them.
There is so much good that has happened, that is highly documented of Catholic/Orthodox saints. God made them for a reason and it is not good to invalidate or ignore them. We have saints for a very good purpose.
Many were already being persecuted and martyred, St. Stephen being the first martyr, with St. Paul attending. But what you are missing completely is the the lives of the saints.
Where is the witness of faith???
There were Christians in Rome and elsewhere who went about tearing down pagan Roman statues, and they thought they were saints. When they were executed, the Church --where is it?..did not call them saints, but called their actions ‘suicide’.
So early on, very early on…look at St. Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthians, to those committing sexual sins, to those seeking placement of honor at church assemblies in the houses of the rich who were the norm of Christian gatherings with the poor in the courtyards, to unbecoming behavior in receiving the Eucharist.
You do not know about the saints who were martyred, including early popes…I think of St. Barbara, St Cecilia…committed virgins…the diary/testimony of SS Perpetua and Felicity in Carthage around 200 AD was absolutely electrifying…also mentioning their Christian friend Saturn, the dreams they had prior to their martyrdom while in prison, was so real, reading it was akin to watching it on film. There are some sites online who have Perpetua’s complete diary, which is what I read.
There are saints whose lives were so holy, their bodies are incorruptible…the most famous is St. Bernadette of Lourdes, France. St. Dominic and other saints raised people from the dead. And likewise, the saints’ lives are highly documented so we can learn from them.
I think the devotion to the communion of saints keeps our focus on growing in Christ. There is so much here in our faith that our Protestant brothers and sisters are literally being kept away from.
I have a copy of Butler’s “Lives of the Saints” in my home. I read the lives of the saints to my children when they were young, and loved hearing about them.
There is so much good that has happened, that is highly documented of Catholic/Orthodox saints. God made them for a reason and it is not good to invalidate or ignore them. We have saints for a very good purpose.
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