Why do protestant denominations hardly talk about saints?

[JonNC]

I know this is a Catholic Forum, but what is a short summary of what Lutherans believe about saints? I had Lutheran friends and neighbors, but they weren’t very *devout *I guess would be the word to use.

You mean the saints in Heaven? The confessions say we know they pray for us, the Church Militant, without ceasing, but there is no command, example, or promise attached to invocation found in scripture.

Is that what you were asking about?

Jon

 

[MollyMac]

Hi Molly…that is the focus of Catholics…the Lord.

Do you have a Christian friend who has helped you become closer to Christ in a most special way…do you have a remembrance of her?

I have someone who seems to respond to none of my prayers…years ago…I believe it was St. Rita who appeared in a dream to me. She was in a nun’s habit. She held a crucifix in her arm as if holding a baby. She stood on the sidewalk outside, in front of the gate. It was March in the drizzly, gentle rain…that comes right before spring in Puget Sound. She was a sweet young girl waiting for me to invite her in. The dream was so realistic, and most of all, it was alive.

Years later, my mother was buried at St. Rita’s church. I sat up in the pew, and they moved St. Rita’s statue over by me. I looked up at it, and it resembled her.

I still pray to her for her prayers for two people in my family who refuse God. She is the patron saint of impossible cases. I got that dream about 25 years ago, and still my prayers aren’t answered, and this cross of unrepentant members are as a scandal to me by some, an embarrassment, but I keep praying and ask the Lord for strength to endure.

Some times we have problems that are too big to share with Christian friends and seek those friends in heaven to continue to pray for us and with us.

At that point, if it were me, I’d rely on Christ alone. He is the author and perfector of my faith. He is who I will turn to for strength and He is the one I pray to for my impossible cases. Or for anything really. For me, saints are there to learn from, but not to pray to. While I tend to ride the fence on certain subjects, this is not one of them. Jesus told me to pray to the Father. The Father-The Son-The Holy Spirit. That’s it for me. I will not judge my family members who pray to saints though.

 

[MollyMac]

You mean the saints in Heaven? The confessions say we know they pray for us, the Church Militant, without ceasing, but there is no command, example, or promise attached to invocation found in scripture.

Is that what you were asking about?

Jon

Yes. So do Lutherans pray to specific saints in heaven as Catholics do? Or do they just believe the saints in heaven are praying for the saints (on earth) general wellbeing?

 

[JonNC]

Yes. So do Lutherans pray to specific saints in heaven as Catholics do? Or do they just believe the saints in heaven are praying for the saints (on earth) general wellbeing?

The latter. In context, the Lutheran reformers complained about what they saw as a requirement to invoke the saints. Their point was that, without a specific command, example (except for the dream in 2 Macc), or a promise, it was wrong to require it.

To be sure, lutherans recognize the Communion of Saints, confess our belief in such in the creeds, and we reference our communion with the saints in Heaven in our liturgy of the Sacrament.

Jon

 

[pablope]

The latter. In context, the Lutheran reformers complained about what they saw as a requirement to invoke the saints. Their point was that, without a specific command, example (except for the dream in 2 Macc), or a promise, it was wrong to require it.

Originally Posted by MollyMac View Post
Yes. So do Lutherans pray to specific saints in heaven as Catholics do? Or do they just believe the saints in heaven are praying for the saints (on earth) general wellbeing?

Hi, MollyMac…just expanding on JonNC’s response…"what they saw as a requirement "…I believe it was and is still Catholic teaching that invocation of saints is optional…it is not a requirement, but there are Catholics (like me) who do invoke saints in heaven for help…especially, the BVM.

From Jon’s response to you…the protestant reformers saw it as a requirement…when it was not…kind of sort of a misunderstanding…

 

[JonNC]

Hi, MollyMac…just expanding on JonNC’s response…"what they saw as a requirement "…I believe it was and is still Catholic teaching that invocation of saints is optional…it is not a requirement, but there are Catholics (like me) who do invoke saints in heaven for help…especially, the BVM.

From Jon’s response to you…the protestant reformers saw it as a requirement…when it was not…kind of sort of a misunderstanding…

I think, after reading the confession and the confutation, it was a bit more than a misunderstanding, but you make a good point. So, the question is for both sides, if the invocation of the saints is optional for Catholics, and if Lutherans on our side simply choose not to but recognize that even in the east there is intercession sought from the saints, is it possible that the question of invocation of the saints ought not be Church dividing?

Jon

 

[pablope]

I think, after reading the confession and the confutation, it was a bit more than a misunderstanding, but you make a good point. So, the question is for both sides, if the invocation of the saints is optional for Catholics, and if Lutherans on our side simply choose not to but recognize that even in the east there is intercession sought from the saints, is it possible that the question of invocation of the saints ought not be Church dividing?

Jon

Hi, Jon…I agree…it should not be Church dividing.

Is it part of the discussion in the Joint Lutheran-Catholic dialogue?

 

[JonNC]

Hi, Jon…I agree…it should not be Church dividing.

Is it part of the discussion in the Joint Lutheran-Catholic dialogue?

From this very long document:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/dialogue-with-others/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

1. The Lutheran Reformation had no distinctive teaching about death or intermediate states. The Lutheran Confessions simply assume that the souls of the dead exist and are in a blessed communion with Christ. No debate with Catholics or among Lutherans called for any discussion of the question and thus the Confessions do not address the nature of death or the way in which the soul survives death. In the debate over whether Christians can invoke prayers from the saints in heaven, the Confessions consistently accept as Christian teaching that the departed saints are in heaven, although we cannot know whether they are aware of our invocations of them.34 The Apology thus states: “[C]oncerning the saints we grant that in heaven they pray for the church in general, just as they prayed for the entire church while living” (Apol. 21:9; 238).35 Luther is more reticent in the Smalcald Articles, saying that “the saints on earth and perhaps [vielleicht] those in heaven pray for us” (SA, II,2,26; 305). Authoritative statements such as Benedictus Deus, however, ceased to carry weight with Lutheranism.36 As a result, questions that had been closed during the medieval period at least theoretically could be reopened. Lutheran theology of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries continued to teach the survival of the soul beyond death and an immediate judgment, followed by acceptance into heaven or banishment to hell.37

There’s more to it, and its very interesting.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Molly Mac…your indoctrination is preventing you from understanding the communion of saints.

Do you ask your friends to pray for you?

Think just how more powerful the prayers of the saints who are at the altar of God and face Him.

That is the benefit of being in Christ’s Church – the communion of saints, living and dead…although we do not consider ourselves anything until we endure to the end in the Lord…the benefit is we are a fraternal communion based on the mystery or dimension of God that is not of this world. We are not alone. We are with others growing closer to God each day…with those below and in union with those in heaven.

Before Christ’s resurrection, the souls of the just waited outside the gates of hell, and the Lord descended to release them and take them to heaven. This movement of the Lord changes the dimension of faith…that before – the anticipation of the faithful Jewish believers…a community and nation of believers waiting for the Lord,–to the new paradigm shift…where the nation of the Lord – the Church – is now all believers united to Him.

Otherwise you have the faith deduced to the Sacred Word of God and His people based on book form, that only shows Christ’s magnificence up to the end of Revelation. In contrast, the faith is of the Church is only beginning.

So to fill in the missing parts of understanding the fullness of faith, you have to go beyond faith in book/text form…back to the people of salvation history…faith passed down through the Oral Tradition, fulfilled in the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ and given us by His witnesses to His life, death, and resurrection – His apostles…not books of the Bible.

The gates of heaven are now open because of Jesus Christ, and consequently…the Church now the new Israel, we are now not just drawing on people of faith in the Old Testament, but on the lives of the saints whose entire beings were transformed by faith in Jesus Christ.

There is so much of what has happened in Christianity in the past 2,000 years. You should start reading the lives of the saints and compare their lives with modern Christian living.

You need to be open to learning about Christian witnesses to the faith, besides the ancient Israelites.

 

[rfournier103]

My answer to the OP is that in MANY Protestant denominations (and to most Protestant Apologists) it’s “Romish pagan drivel” to do so. They were good Christians, but holding them in too much lofty esteem is sinful.

Jesus is the center of Christian faith (AGREED), and why talk about “mere men” when you can talk about the Son of God?

They think to honor saints is abhorant, and too much like Catholicism. Look at many Christian apologists on you tube and you’ll see their wicked hatred for Catholicism, and some refuse to address saints as St. ______. One pair (former Catholics, I might add) even went as far to say, “I don’t reccomend reading the works of the early Church fathers.”

I would pay a LOT of money to watch Karl Keating or Scott Hahn (or both) mop the floor with those two (verbally, of course).

 

[Mystophilus]

Here is my dilemma: As a protestant I have a fondness for the saints but cannot get past God’s own instructions not to communicate with the dead. Therefore, I question how the saints can really be saints if they broke God’s commandments? Therefore I question my own fondness for the saints. Where is this fondness coming from? Could it be I am being lead into deception?

The injunction in Dt 18:11 and Is 8:19 is against *questioning *the dead, which was a very common form of divination. It says nothing about speaking to the “cloud of witnesses” by whom we are surrounded (Heb 12:1), who can then pray with us and for us as our living friends do.

 

[JonNC]

Today is the Festival of St. Mary Magdalene, which was the focus of our divine service, liturgy of the word today. I’d be curious if any other non-Catholic parishes celebrated this festival today.

Jon

 

[GKC]

Today is the Festival of St. Mary Magdalene, which was the focus of our divine service, liturgy of the word today. I’d be curious if any other non-Catholic parishes celebrated this festival today.

Jon

Not speaking as a non-Catholic, of course (I usually pass questions so posed), but she was listed in the Saint’s days and prayer intentions for the month, was the focus of the sermon.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[JonNC]

Not speaking as a non-Catholic, of course (I usually pass questions so posed), but she was listed in the Saint’s days and prayer intentions for the month, was the focus of the sermon.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

Thanks for ignoring my rather simplistic wording.

Jon

 

[Symphorian]

Today is the Festival of St. Mary Magdalene, which was the focus of our divine service, liturgy of the word today. I’d be curious if any other non-Catholic parishes celebrated this festival today.

Jon

Yes, Solemn Eucharist and Solemn Evensong.

 

[hn160]

Today is the Festival of St. Mary Magdalene, which was the focus of our divine service, liturgy of the word today. I’d be curious if any other non-Catholic parishes celebrated this festival today.

Jon

We did at my church. If a Saint day falls during the week, it is moved to the following Sunday.

 

[LEMAITRE]

The Saints belong to all Christians, not just Catholics, Orthodoxy or Anglicans. There is much to be admired about the Saints. They set an example that many Christians and non-Christians could learn from.

I would argue that they do talk about the Saints but primarily about the ones that they are most familiar with in Sacred Scripture e.g. the Apostles.

 

[robertericleech]

I’ve always found it ironic that some protestant communities call Catholics ‘idolators’ for venerating statues of the Blessed Virgin Mary and other saints, but they almost all have a Nativity scene in front of their church at Christmas.

 

[JonNC]

I’ve always found it ironic that some protestant communities call Catholics ‘idolators’ for venerating statues of the Blessed Virgin Mary and other saints, but they almost all have a Nativity scene in front of their church at Christmas.

While not defending iconoclasm, I think it is more the response to statues, etc., than it is their mere exisitence. And for those who do have a problem with their mere existence, they probably wouldn’t have a Nativity scene.

Jon

 

[Mystophilus]

Today is the Festival of St. Mary Magdalene, which was the focus of our divine service, liturgy of the word today. I’d be curious if any other non-Catholic parishes celebrated this festival today.

Jon

We did, yes, although the degree of notice taken of any given saint’s day depends upon who is preaching or reading the liturgy.