Why do protestants and Catholics disagree

[Egg4christ]

Let’s try this the other way around. I’ve already PMed someone with this specific question.
I’m trying to convince myself that Catholics know Christ too. I know i do, i just want to be able to rejoice with you too.
I’ve been trying to look for similar feelings in both our hearts, which is where i come up with the emotional connection.
Maybe you can do a better job. Could you open yourself to the possibility that i know God as well as you do?* And, if you open yourself to that, then could you figure out a way to test it? I’d try and answer best i could if you asked.
I’m not talking about issues of doctrine. Anyone can go to a mass and take the eucharist, and fake it, just like anyone can fake an emotional experience with God. Aim for the heart.

*Just because you agree that i may know God doesn’t mean you have to agree with all my interpretations of scripture.

 

[CollegeKid]

Egg,

My saying this probably isn’t going to improve your impression of Catholics being too bound by our laws, but I feel it needs to be said because it reiterates what Saint Paul told us: Please do not continue to take the Eucharist at Catholic Masses, as this sacrament is for Catholics. Furthermore, it is not about how you feel while you take the Eucharist. It is about simply believing what Christ told us, that if we want to have life within us we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Thinking that this needs to be an emotional experience was something I myself stumbled over. Also, please understand that there are many Catholics out there, yes, people who’ve been Catholic since the day they were born, who have a deep and abiding love for Jesus Christ. I know people like this, and it is one of the things that I find extremely heartening about our faith. Thanks, and God bless.

In Christ,
CK

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

Egg4christ:

I’m trying to convince myself that Catholics know Christ too.

I would like to know something from your standpoint. You’ve already said that you “see” Catholics and they don’t appear to have any connection with Christ. On what grounds do you base this observation? Can you hear their prayers or read their hearts? I don’t mean to sound cruel or pointed, and I apologize for it if I do, but that sounds like a pretty difficult judgement to make. To say that you know the depth of a person’s faith by merely observing them? That’s almost like saying you can read minds or know the content of one’s heart. Now here’s what I have to say:

As most people on this board know, my closest and dearest friends, the people I love most in the world, are ALL Protestant. I do have Catholic friends, but not one of those friendships even compares to the love I have for my Protestant friends. And through those friendships, I have learned more about myself and my faith than I could have ever dreamed of without them…and I also learned even more about their faiths. No, we do not agree on most things, things that I very well may believe are crucial and absolutely necessary points of one’s faith, but that has NEVER made me question their personal faiths. I know how much they love Christ because I pray with them, because I share His love with them and they share His love with me, because I can feel His compassion and His love when I am around them, because they model Christ for me better than anyone in the world. That being said, the hardest thing for me to deal with was when one of my friends, someone I love and respect, told me that he didn’t believe I had a deep enough connection with Christ…merely because I was CATHOLIC. what a judgement to make.

He NEVER came to my church. He NEVER came to my youth group. He NEVER prayed a rosary with me or spent time in Adoration with me, whether he agreed with it or not. He made no effort to know my faith more than what he *wanted *to know: the typical stereotypes forced on Catholics by people who don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. And yet, he thought he knew enough about my faith to say that I didn’t know Christ. That was the hardest thing I have ever had to hear. I never judged the depth of his faith, I accepted our differences and believed that he truly knew God because of his Christian life. But he still judged mine, knowing NOTHING valid about my faith, only what he had been fed to “know” about Catholics…

How can you know the depth of our faiths? How can you even think to make that judgment? Isn’t that like playing God, to say YOU know our hearts bettter than WE do? Yes, you may have taken the Eucharist once and never felt anything…WHY would you? you don’t believe what we do, you don’t tremble at the thought that you are taking CHRIST HIMSELF into your body. no, and I don’t judge you because you don’t believe that, I am sorry for you, but I do not judge you…because I know my friends also miss out on that experience, but it doesn’t mean that they have no connection with Christ.
There is no difference between what my friend did and what you are doing: making a judgement on my faith based soley on that fact that I am Catholic and what you think you “know” about Catholics. I can tell you now you are wrong. Perhaps instead of judging us, involve yourself in a conversation with one of us, putting aside all biases and stereotypes. Actually make an effort to KNOW a Catholic, many Catholics, instead of “observing” them and thinking that that is sufficient. I think you’ll find you made your judgement a little too soon.

In HIM,
Britty

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

…and one more quick thought:

Why do protestants and Catholics disagree?

Comments like yours, saying we have no faith because we are Catholic, keep us pretty darn well divided as it is.

 

[alyssa]

I get so tired of a “personal relationship w/Jesus”.

I think, for most Catholics who understand and know their faith, even just the basics…that is such a personal thing that we don’t talk about it…it’s not something you discuss with friends or family, just your confessor/SD, because it’s not just supermarket chit-chat. Would you discuss your spouse and difficulties/sucesses/etc with a stranger you just met an hour ago? For me, at least, that’s what a “personal relationship” consists of.

 

[scylla]

As a Catholic, I have nothing but love for our separated Christian bretheren. Please understand that I don’t doubt at all your “personal relationship” with Jesus. I am not one to judge you and as a former Calvary Chapel member, I feel I have not left anything behind in coming home to the Catholic Church but have rather completed my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, by knowing His Church.

You can rest assured that the majority of us believe you have a good relationship with Jesus and are not looking down at you. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I don’t need to test that you love God, you just say it and believe you. You don’t even need to say it, just your presence here shows your love for Christ in that you want to share Him with us.
We want to share Him with you too, that is why we put so much effort into responding to your posts. You are welcome here and welcome to inquire more.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

Egg,

I say this as someone who has grown up Protestant and who, incidentally, struggles with charity: you are profoundly arrogant and it’s making me sick.

Emotionalism has been one of if not the biggest obstacle I’ve had to struggle to overcome in my faith, both while I was a Protestant and now that I am converting. I see it as a poison that has infected the body.

Emotion is fine. Emotionalism, on the other hand, teaches exactly the kind of tripe that you’re throwing at us. There is so much pressure in Protestant churches to “feel” worship, etc. It gets to the point where that is the goal. I was made to feel, as were many I’ve talked to, that I was somehow less of a Christian because I didn’t weep during praise & worship time, or because I didn’t answer the altar call at a youth rally, crying and hugging my friends.

Love is not butterflies in your stomach or that hard-to-explain warm feeling in your heart. Those are the fruits of love that some people bear inwardly. Love is a choice and an action. Love is a lifestyle. Worship is not about what I get out of it. Worship is about what I offer up to God. Pull your head out of your unmentionables and realize that it is not about you.

-Joel

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

post script:

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned it, Egg, but a Protestant receiving the Eucharist is sacrilege. Never do that again. I don’t care how badly you want to “feel” Christ.

God bless.

 

[Darrel]

The second problem is proably a little more harsh. Catholic laws remind me of the pharasees.

They remind me of the truth. Two thousand years of experience doesn’t hurt either.

Things like who can preform an exercism (something i’ve never even seen, but i think with God i could do it).

Be careful what you wish for. This is serious biz and this is not some game or movie. Being an exorcist is like a vocation unto it’s self and I for one know for a fact this is nothing to toy with.

It seems like the church is trying to decide who should have the power, instead of God directly.

God directly gave the Church the power so what is the difference?

Are you clergy that “special” that God favors them? in my church, every single person will attest to being an average person who is used by Christ.

Christ is love and love does not “use”.

isn’t our usefulness in christ decided by our dedication to him, not our title in His church?

We are all loved by Christ and we are all useful. Being a former prot I will say that the greatest difference between protestant and Catholic is the simple fact that the CC is grounded in reality and truth while the protestants are off in La La land embracing 8 million alternate realities based on emotional impulse and fanaticism.

an example from another post.

connecticut.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D8B4P34O0

-D

 

[TeriGator]

Sgt Sweaters:

Love is not butterflies in your stomach or that hard-to-explain warm feeling in your heart. Those are the fruits of love that some people bear inwardly. Love is a choice and an action. Love is a lifestyle. Worship is not about what I get out of it. Worship is about what I offer up to God.

This quote of Joel’s is worth repeating. (I’ll refrain from comment about the rest of the post, however.)

Egg, I don’t want to disparage your relationship with Christ, or say that you don’t know Him. I come from a Protestant background, and I believe that Protestants can know Him and serve Him quite well. I just disagree that they know all about Him. And when Protestants say the type of things that you have said to us here, it speaks less of their relationship to Him than to their relationship with themselves. I hope that you can find within yourself a measure of Christian charity and humility.

God bless you, Egg, and may you find His full truth and love.

 

[deb1]

Egg4christ:

. Could you open yourself to the possibility that i know God as well as you do?* And, if you open yourself to that, then could you figure out a way to test it? I’d try and answer best i could if you asked.
.

Are you asking us to test your love for God? Egg, this is not a good request. It isn’t our place to judge your love for God. That is between you and Jesus.

 

[Nekic]

Egg4christ:

to be honest, i’ve taken eucharist(in a catholic church), i don’t think i felt that.

If you aren’t a catholic, why did you recieve the eucharist??? Non-catholics aren’t supposed to recieve the Lord in the Eucharist!!!

 

[dennisknapp]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=62267

I’m still trying to figure out the disconect between Catholics and Protestants. I know we say all sorts of things, that the Protestants destroyed church structure, or that the Catholics have become corrupt, but those aren’t really our problem. What is?

I posted the above link because there is a thread there that describes the Charasmatic Catholic movement. I can’t speak for everyone, but when i look at the Catholic church, i see two things. First, is a lack of an emotional connection with christ that is found in more charasmatic movements.
I’m sorry, but when i look at Catholics, it just seems as if the majority are oblivious to this emotional connection with christ. They say they know him, but they use the word “know” in referring to a head knowledge. They don’t experience christ.
Don’t get me wrong, though. Experience isn’t everything. If you’re not also ground in a knowledge of scripture, God’s character, and his laws, you are lost. But you can’t truly know unless you’ve felt.

The second problem is proably a little more harsh. Catholic laws remind me of the pharasees. Things like who can preform an exercism (something i’ve never even seen, but i think with God i could do it).It seems like the church is trying to decide who should have the power, instead of God directly. Are you clergy that “special” that God favors them? in my church, every single person will attest to being an average person who is used by Christ. isn’t our usefulness in christ decided by our dedication to him, not our title in His church?

Please, do me a favor. Think deeply about the protestant churches you know. maybe even visit a protestant forum for a time. (remember, though… it took me a couple of months to understand the Catholic forum better.)
Then, try and isolate the issues you have with protestants to one or two larger ideas, and lets discuss them. Hopefully, through discssion, we’ll find that maybe our barriars are overcomable.

How do you know you are a Christian? From your head or your heart? Or both?

Catholics and Protestants disagree because (hopefully) we both care about truth. Do you care about truth? Or is it just how you feel?

The reason I ask is that most of your posts on this thread seem to be emotionally driven and relativistic. You judge Catholic based on your experience as a Christian, as if it were the only valid measure.

As Catholics we understand and accept what the Church teaches because this is what Christ gave us. He gave us a Church guided by the Holy Spirit which he promised to would lead us in all truth.

We act in Mass the way you see us act because this is how we have always acted. This is how Christians have been acting since the beginning.

Look into the history of Christianity. There you will find the Church Christ established. There you will find the truth. Use you head as well as your heart.

Peace

 

[Egg4christ]

First of all, several of you are concerned about my taking the eucharist. Let me set your hearts at ease ( I think) by saying i was Catholic at the time. I am no longer, but we won’t go into that.

CheesusPowerKid:

I know how much they love Christ because I pray with them, because I share His love with them and they share His love with me, because I can feel His compassion and His love when I am around them, because they model Christ for me better than anyone in the world.

I completely agree with you. I DON’T know Catholics. I haven’t actually spent that much time observing mass. But that probably wouldn’t help. In any case, i haven’t done any of the above things. These are the things i’m looking for. I’m on this board, looking for someone who can assure me of those same things. I’m trying to do what you have done with your Protestant friends, but unfortunately, I don’t really know any Catholics outside of this board.

Again, i feel like typed words fail me. I feel like if i could speak with you face to face, the tone in my voice would convey a different message than what’s coming out of the computer.
Unfortunately, it is about 3AM where i am, i will have to continue this later.

 

[buzzcut]

Egg4christ:

i was Catholic at the time. I am no longer

Now that’s interesting and perhaps has something to do with your posts about this subject.

 

[Pax]

Egg,

I have been thinking about this thread, and it has struck me that you are seeking answers that may have been available to you had your statements and questions been posed differently. I think you are seeking “testimonies” that will give you insights into what gives us our deep connections to Jesus. The connections you seek in us are those you have experienced as a Protestant, but never as a Catholic.

If this is the case, then maybe our personal stories will help. So far, I think most of us have taken an intellectual approach to your sentiments and positions to let you know that it is not reasonable or logical to place a great deal of weight on outward appearances. Only God can judge the hearts of men. You are right, however, to ask us to tell you what we can. Your inquiries are reasonable if you are seeking Catholic witness and testimony.

That having been said, I will go ahead and tell you my story since I can pretty much remain anonymous on this board. Revealing what’s in my heart will thereby, so to speak, remain in keeping with Matt. 6:6.

I am a cradle Catholic and went through eight years of Catholic grade school. My teachers were almost always nuns and they were terrific. I served as an altar boy several days a week for the last four years at that school. I then attended four years of seminary in high school. Although it was not my calling to be a priest, it was still a beneficial and holy experience.

I’m now about four or five years from retirement. Over the course of my life, I have always been deeply rooted in the faith. I have never missed Sunday mass and attend during the week whenever I have a day off from work. Until about ten years ago, I played cafeteria catholic on the issue of birth control. Eventually, I came to a sort of spiritual cross roads. The Lord was calling me to a deeper relationship with Him. It is difficult to explain and there is sufficient complexity in how God’s grace worked in me, but when I made the choice to follow His latest call many wonderful things unfolded. Not only did my prayer life rapidly grow, but I had a whole new thirst for the full truth of our Catholic faith. I began to examine everything including my position on the issue of artificial birth control. It took me very little time to learn and realize that the Church was right. This meant swallowing my pride and heading down to the confessional. It also got me started on apologetics because I wanted all the biblical reasons and the theological understandings that support all of Catholic teaching. This just made me love God all the more. I never stop giving thanks to the Father for having sent His divine son, Jesus, to redeem us by his death and resurrection. In turn, I never stop praising and thanking the Lord for His sacrifice on the cross. Moreover, I never stop thanking Him for giving Himself to us in the Eucharist. Likewise, I never cease thanking the Holy Spirit for the work done within me. The Holy Spirit opened all of the windows and doors to my heart and soul. It was then that a tremendous amount of light concerning the Church began to flood into me.

Even with all of that, I sometimes want to give up in the fight against some of the overwhelming evils of our world. Fortunately, I am always able take solace in the fact that the victory has already been won…Satan simply hasn’t seen the handwriting on the wall.

I believe that we all need to be on a mission to evangelize non-Catholics and Catholics alike. It always gives me pause to read the words of Jesus where he says, " And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved."[Matt 24:12-13]

While we may never know the outcome of our efforts in doing the Lord’s work, we can put great confidence in the grace of God. The fact you are willing to come on this forum to discuss this issue of relationship with the Lord is a prompting of the Holy Spirit and is bound to be a blessing to you and to us. Just be more open minded about Catholics. Sincerity and love of God are expressed in many different ways and God touches each of us in ways that He alone knows we need. For some, it may be an emotional resonance, for others a sense of peace and simple joy. For others, it may be more of an intellectual component that sustains faith and love in ways that no emotion can. God knows us as we are and He touches us accordingly. We can trust in His wisdom but not our own.

I hope this answers at least some of your queries. Perhaps others have a story that you might better relate to. Just keep in mind that not everyone is of the same mind set. There are differences in the way people relate to one another and this is complicated further by the way Protestants and Catholics sometimes relate to one another. Call it a difference in personalities complicated by a religious cultural divide.

Keep posting and stick around…you might find that you have many friends here. Shalom!

 

[jonnyz]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=62267

I’m still trying to figure out the disconect between Catholics and Protestants. I know we say all sorts of things, that the Protestants destroyed church structure, or that the Catholics have become corrupt, but those aren’t really our problem. What is?

Then, try and isolate the issues you have with protestants to one or two larger ideas, and lets discuss them. Hopefully, through discssion, we’ll find that maybe our barriars are overcomable.

Hermeneutics. Thats what it all boils down to. As long as there are different interpretations, there will be barriers. For example: Lets choose one of the largest ideas in my opinion – salvation. (meaning going to heaven instead of hell in some kind of concious existance after death) A lot of evangelical, protestant, etc. groups believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus. They interpret that grace as a universal pardon that you can be made accepted in Christ only by repentance and believing, and doing works in line with that repentance. Now the CC believes that saving grace is mystically bound to the 7 sacraments plus be in union with the church. You can find scriptures in the Bible to support both sides. Thats why i think the Prots/Caths shouldnt bother trying to change the minds of the Prots/Caths on this site with arguments like, well the bible says this or that. The strong Catholic knows why he believes what he believes based on the Bible, the strong protestant knows what he believes based on the Bible as well. The only way you can change a persons mind is if he or she doesnt know why (Biblically) they practice what they do. then a member of the opposite camp can come in and point out, “well the Bible says this…” and maybe he can sway the person to the other side. Otherwise you can argue back and forth interpreting scriptures for all of eternity. I guess its ok if you want to share your interpretations with each other, but to try and convince the other to change his interpretation? I think its very unlikely.

Now that would make a good poll. How many of you are willing to compromise what your interpretations of essential Biblical Truths (like Salvation) are? It should come out like 1% yes 99% No way

 

[Jennie]

Love is not butterflies in your stomach or that hard-to-explain warm feeling in your heart. Those are the fruits of love that some people bear inwardly. Love is a choice and an action. Love is a lifestyle. Worship is not about what I get out of it. Worship is about what I offer up to God.

-Joel

Egg,

The above quote from Joel really hit home with me. Especially the highlighted part.

I was a Southern Baptist. I then started attending Mass with my Catholic husband. At first, I felt similar as you do when I entered a Catholic Church. It seemed very quiet, dark, somber, emotionless, etc.

Of course it would at first. I was used to the bright lights, loud music, singing performances, shouting “a-men!” etc. Also, I was skeptical, so my heart was hardened.

I finally realized that going to church wasn’t about how entertained I was during the service, but it was about being with and serving Christ.

Now, when I go into a Catholic Church, it’s like entering heaven. Jesus, the crucifix, Mary, all the saints, angels, people praying, people kneeling even before entering a pew, crying babies, children, whole households, etc. are there in Gods house.

I’ve visited the Baptist church a few times to celebrate special occasions with my family, and guess what? It now seemed very different, almost emotionless.

Where was Jesus? Where was his mother and Joseph? What about all the saints and angels? Where were all the babies and children? (oh yeah, I remembered it was encouraged for parents to leave babies and small children in the daycare as so not to interrupt church).

The church I once thought of as being very spiritual, now seemed very plain and dull. Who would have thought I was in a church? It certainly didn’t reflect the house of God.

Nobody kneeled before entering of leaving a pew, nobody did the sign of the cross, people were even chewing gum, passing around candy, and having small snacks as though it were meal time.

You may not see the love and emotion that pours from the Catholic Church, because you don’t have that exact type of love and emotion yourself. When you discover truth, your eyes will be opened. Kind of like having a new car, you didn’t realize how many people had the same one, until you had one yourself.

Peace,

Jennie

 

[deb1]

jonnyz:

Hermeneutics. Thats what it all boils down to. As long as there are different interpretations, there will be barriers. For example: Lets choose one of the largest ideas in my opinion – salvation. (meaning going to heaven instead of hell in some kind of concious existance after death) A lot of evangelical, protestant, etc. groups believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus. They interpret that grace as a universal pardon that you can be made accepted in Christ only by repentance and believing, and doing works in line with that repentance. Now the CC believes that saving grace is mystically bound to the 7 sacraments plus be in union with the church. You can find scriptures in the Bible to support both sides. Thats why i think the Prots/Caths shouldnt bother trying to change the minds of the Prots/Caths on this site with arguments like, well the bible says this or that. The strong Catholic knows why he believes what he believes based on the Bible, the strong protestant knows what he believes based on the Bible as well. The only way you can change a persons mind is if he or she doesnt know why (Biblically) they practice what they do. then a member of the opposite camp can come in and point out, “well the Bible says this…” and maybe he can sway the person to the other side. Otherwise you can argue back and forth interpreting scriptures for all of eternity. I guess its ok if you want to share your interpretations with each other, but to try and convince the other to change his interpretation? I think its very unlikely.

Now that would make a good poll. How many of you are willing to compromise what your interpretations of essential Biblical Truths (like Salvation) are? It should come out like 1% yes 99% No way

Hello,

Have you ever read any of Scott Hahn’s books? He converted to Catholism after serving as a well educated minister. I just wanted to point out that there are some people-many on this site-who have converted from Protestantism. Not all, were ignorant of the theology behind their original beliefs.

 

[Egg4christ]

Pax:

I have been thinking about this thread, and it has struck me that you are seeking answers that may have been available to you had your statements and questions been posed differently. I think you are seeking “testimonies” that will give you insights into what gives us our deep connections to Jesus. The connections you seek in us are those you have experienced as a Protestant, but never as a Catholic.

Pax, you are very wise, articulating what i could not.
Yeah, i guess i am seeking testimonies of sorts.
Jennie, i appreciate your story, but keep in mind, that’s not how all Protestant Churches are. Children are seperated out in our church so that they can be ministered to in a way that speaks better to their age and maturity level. Most people in our church save “snack time” for after church. Things like worship style are where i think we each have an individual style. of course not all of us will want to worship in the same style. It’s not all about enjoying the music personally, several people would be very distracted by the kind of music i enjoy for worship, while i would be put to sleep by theirs. We have to be careful not to point to anyones specific preferences, and label them wrong. Remember, we’re not making christian clones, we’re just looking for christians.
Buzzcut, maybe i’ll enlighten you on my short past when the time presents itself… soon maybe.

jonnyz, i think you make interesting observations, but wrong conclusions. It’s true, generally those stronger in their faith don’t convert. But, this may just be cause those stronger in their faith are more stubborn(i know i am). unfortunately, those of us involved in appologetics spend so much time dealing with the opposition that we become hardened against it, be it right or wrong. It takes a great deal of work to get through that, and most of us aren’t interested.

Please, if you don’t mind, contribute some testimonies, just to share your life of christ with me.
Also, if protestants could pick up one Catholic practice, what would you suggest, and why (please don’t post “Becoming a Catholic”)
on one last note, i am unfortunately going to leave all of you until the 16th. I am leaving tommorrow on a Missions trip to Philadelphia. Please pray for us, that God would show up in unimaginable ways.
Adios