Why Do Protestants Care What Catholics Do?

[bengal_fan]

Here’s what I think it comes down to: when serious Protestants look at the Catholic Church, they see something unique and extraordinary. Here is a Church that has been around for 2,000 years (is by far the oldest living organization in the world

i would say that the churches that were founded before the church in rome are older. they have maintained apostolic succession as well. so this statement isn’t entirely true

, the only one that stretches back to the ancient world)

not true as well. lots of religions stretch back farther.

, is totally catholic (universal) in dogma and doctrine among its different regions and branches

not true, orthodox are the same.

, and is extremely powerful on the world stage.

this one i would agree with. although i think the church has lost much of its influence in the past 60-70 years (stemming from WWII).

That’s something… no other Church compares to it in these respects. So there must be something behind this Church that is not merely human, but supernatural:

orthodox churches do compare (although not on a world stage level as i stated above). protestants would say that every church has a supernatural power behind it… Jesus.

it is either God’s Church or Satan’s Church. There is no other way to explain it.

sure there is. it is another expression of Christianity. i hear catholic apologists all the time talk about things must be viewed as “both/and” (ark and mary, church/israel/mary in rev 12, etc). so why is this a case where it is either/or? can’t the church be “God’s” church but not the only Christian church? i know you might not think so but that is where most protestants would go.

And since these Protestants are convinced that their own doctrines are totally correct and Biblical (the five solas, etc., which the Catholic Church rejects),

just like the catholic church is convinced the own doctrines are totally correct. also, the catholic church does not reject sola gratia.

it therefore must be the case that the Catholic Church is being guided by Satan.
I believe that this is the intellectual root behind Protestant anti-Catholicism. There is a method to their madness.

i believe you are over generalizing. it is not the intellectual root of most protestants. many speak out of their experience (just as many catholics do). they have experienced God within the traditions they come from and have a genuine desire for others to experience Him as well. the problem arises from the belief that their experience is the only way to experience God and therefore others do not experience Him where they are. thus, they try to convert them to their method of experience.

 

[JRKH]

Here’s what I think it comes down to: when serious Protestants look at the Catholic Church, they see something unique and extraordinary. Here is a Church that has been around for 2,000 years (is by far the oldest living organization in the world, the only one that stretches back to the ancient world), is totally catholic (universal) in dogma and doctrine among its different regions and branches, and is extremely powerful on the world stage. That’s something… no other Church compares to it in these respects. So there must be something behind this Church that is not merely human, but supernatural: it is either God’s Church or Satan’s Church. There is no other way to explain it. And since these Protestants are convinced that their own doctrines are totally correct and Biblical (the five solas, etc., which the Catholic Church rejects), it therefore must be the case that the Catholic Church is being guided by Satan. (Also, the discerning Protestant’s view that Catholicism is so close to doctrinal purity – it has all the theological fundamentals down and its heresies are relatively small compared with, say, Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses – just goes to show them Satan’s slick deceptiveness. If Satan were to guide a Church, he would not make it obvious. Rather, the evil one would mask his evil in a lot of truth, so as to deceive good and well-meaning people.)

I believe that this is the intellectual root behind Protestant anti-Catholicism, behind seriously labelling the Catholic Church “the Whore of Babylon” and the pope “the antichrist.” As flawed as their framework is, there is a method to their madness.

This is a well written argument, but doesn’t it fly in the face of what Jesus himself tells us in Matthew 12:?

22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.” 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 **"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? **27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

So by this, isn’t Jesus telling us that satan cannot act in any way other than evil? And if this is true, then the only way for the CC to be guided by satan would be if the entire church teaching function and fruit were evil. But this is not so.
Regardless of what anti-catholics might think or say, the teachings of the church are not evil. Even those who are abasically gainst catholicism must acknowledge that most of the teachings are not evil. Therefore by Jesus own words the chuch cannot be guided by satan since satan cannot be divided against himself.

Peace
James

 

[Catholicdeacon]

. Why should we Catholics always be the ones on the defensive, always the ones dodging the bullets? The day that Catholics start evengelizing Protestants with the same fervor that Protestants try to evangelize Catholics will be a happy one

The thing is… The Church as the living presence of Christ on earth has “bigger fish to fry” than dissenting Christians. There is a war against the sanctity of life going on and the Church is in the forefront of it. It is more important to fight for justice, defend the unborn and bring dignity to those less fortunate than to spend years learning about protestant doctrinal nuances so we can engage on endless arguments. Jesus said “You will know them by their fruits”… Have you noticed that the major anti-catholic ministries have very little fruits to show in these areas? It is because they choose to ignore the words of The King in Mathew 25.

In His love

CatholicDeacon

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The thing is… The Church as the living presence of Christ on earth has “bigger fish to fry” than dissenting Christians. There is a war against the sanctity of life going on and the Church is in the forefront of it. It is more important to fight for justice, defend the unborn and bring dignity to those less fortunate than to spend years learning about protestant doctrinal nuances so we can engage on endless arguments. Jesus said “You will know them by their fruits”… Have you noticed that the major anti-catholic ministries have very little fruits to show in these areas? It is because they choose to ignore the words of The King in Mathew 25.

In His love

CatholicDeacon

I couldn’t agree more. We are the Church Jesus established. We have the grandest calling of all. Protestants are right when they say that their churches are not the Kingdom of God on earth. They aren’t. However, Catholicism is. So we go about the business of saving lives and bringing people home under the direct guidance and impulse of the Holy Spirit. Our sorrow for the stubbornly separated bretheren dare not deter us from our task.

CDL

 

[neophyte]

that’s like saying catholics are closet pelagians. you can’t attain grace without doing works.

we all know neither are true so why be insulting?

It’s a fact that many (I daresay most) Protestants believe that one must have conscious knowledge that Jesus is the Christ in order to attain salvation. They believe that no matter how one responds to what one knows of natural revelation, unless one receives an understanding of divine revelation it is impossible to enter heaven. That idea is the core of the gnostic heresy: the idea that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few.

So it’s entirely accurate to characterize this belief as gnostic in character, and since most of them aren’t aware of it themselves then it’s also accurate to characterise it as “closeted gnosticism”.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

It’s a fact that many (I daresay most) Protestants believe that one must have conscious knowledge that Jesus is the Christ in order to attain salvation. They believe that no matter how one responds to what one knows of natural revelation, unless one receives an understanding of divine revelation it is impossible to enter heaven. That idea is the core of the gnostic heresy: the idea that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few.

So it’s entirely accurate to characterize this belief as gnostic in character, and since most of them aren’t aware of it themselves then it’s also accurate to characterise it as “closeted gnosticism”.

For most this is true.

CDL

 

[JustaServant]

They believe that no matter how one responds to what one knows of natural revelation, unless one receives an understanding of divine revelation it is impossible to enter heaven. That idea is the core of the gnostic heresy: the idea that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few.
When I have asked fundamentalists what about the mentally retarded or Down’s Syndrome people, how do they attain this information, I generally got blank stares.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I think you can answer the question with a question…

Why do Catholics care what Protestants do?

It’s the same on both sides. Each cares about the state of the other’s souls, or they want to focus their anger on someone else and theological debate can get quite heated quite fast.

BUT it has to be made a point that not ALL Protestants ‘care’ what Catholics do in the sense that the OP intended…

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think you can answer the question with a question…

Why do Catholics care what Protestants do?

It’s the same on both sides.

Other than putting down the Catholic Church, I don’t care what Protestants do. I don’t worry about their souls because I don’t believe they are destined for hell because they aren’t Catholic. Sometimes I feel sad about what they are missing out on but I keep that to myself. I will however defend my beliefs when attacked. There is a reason why Catholic apologetics is so huge.

 

[gr8full]

I must admit a few chuckles as I’ve read the post and replys. So much assuming going on! I think on both sides of the debate there are many more details to what people believe than can be written here.
I think many Protestants suffer from ignorance, not arrogance or hatred. I think the same could be said of many Catholics. I’ve run into some Catholics who know less about the church than ME. Thats something considering I’m a Southern Baptist who’s just taken the time to learn what the church really believes and not just what I’ve heard some ignorant people say it believes. If people were to just take the time to really learn what is believed on both sides, there would be a lot less concern about each others souls.
I’m still prayerfully considering joining the swim team! I just have more hurdles to over come but some day I may.
I do enjoy this board and it’s always interesting!

 

[The_Catholic]

I think that Catholics in general need to get a little more concerned about what Protestants believe and do. Why should we Catholics always be the ones on the defensive, always the ones dodging the bullets? The day that Catholics start evengelizing Protestants with the same fervor that Protestants try to evangelize Catholics will be a happy one. After all, Protestantism is the heresy (or rather, heresies). Let us not forget that. Their souls are unnecessarily in danger.

At the very least, it would remind them what they are protesting against.

Not to change the subject, but how could their “souls” be unnecessarily in danger if one is truly ignorant of the truth yet truly believes in their heart of hearts that Christ died for them, is their Lord, and desire to walk with Him? I do not believe that everyone who bares not the tittle “Catholic” is not saved. God knows our hearts and any who seeks the Truth shall find it. It’s not a guessing game on which doctrine is right and which doctrine is wrong. “Opps, you believed in once saved always saved, see ya, off into eternal hell.” Not to be disrespectful but that’s the same type of BS type of stuff Protestants pull.

lowers his head feeling like he’s about to get scolded

 

[JRKH]

Not to change the subject, but how could their “souls” be unnecessarily in danger if one is truly ignorant of the truth yet truly believes in their heart of hearts that Christ died for them, is their Lord, and desire to walk with Him? I do not believe that everyone who bares not the tittle “Catholic” is not saved. God knows our hearts and any who seeks the Truth shall find it. It’s not a guessing game on which doctrine is right and which doctrine is wrong. “Opps, you believed in once saved always saved, see ya, off into eternal hell.” Not to be disrespectful but that’s the same type of BS type of stuff Protestants pull.

lowers his head feeling like he’s about to get scolded

I agree with most of what you say here. There often is too much arguing and not enough dicussion on both sides of the issue.

The one thing I must address though is the OSAS issue. Not because an individual cannot get to heaven through a church that believes thus, but because it sets up a false sense of assurance in too many people.
I have personally known a number of people who believe they are saved regardless of how foul, lewd, hateful, or generally unchristian their behavior.

Of course I know any number of catholics who seem to feel the same way, but at least they are not taught that by the CCC.

Peace
James

 

[neophyte]

I must admit a few chuckles as I’ve read the post and replys. So much assuming going on! I think on both sides of the debate there are many more details to what people believe than can be written here.
I think many Protestants suffer from ignorance, not arrogance or hatred. I think the same could be said of many Catholics. I’ve run into some Catholics who know less about the church than ME. Thats something considering I’m a Southern Baptist who’s just taken the time to learn what the church really believes and not just what I’ve heard some ignorant people say it believes. If people were to just take the time to really learn what is believed on both sides, there would be a lot less concern about each others souls.
I’m still prayerfully considering joining the swim team! I just have more hurdles to over come but some day I may.
I do enjoy this board and it’s always interesting!

I swam the Tiber four years ago this week. Jump in! The water’s warm.

 

[The_Catholic]

JRKH “The one thing I must address though is the OSAS issue. Not because an individual cannot get to heaven through a church that believes thus, but because it sets up a false sense of assurance in too many people.
I have personally known a number of people who believe they are saved regardless of how foul, lewd, hateful, or generally unchristian their behavior.”

I agree with you 100%!! We have to live the life, which is why the OSAS doctrine, to me is silly. Though I was more so saying those who believe that yet also live the life with heartfelt devotion for the Lord.

God bless you

 

[JRKH]

JRKH “The one thing I must address though is the OSAS issue. Not because an individual cannot get to heaven through a church that believes thus, but because it sets up a false sense of assurance in too many people.
I have personally known a number of people who believe they are saved regardless of how foul, lewd, hateful, or generally unchristian their behavior.”

We are on the same page my friend.
I’m just reading a testimonial on Steven Ray’s website from a person who comes from this sort of background. It makes fastinating reading.

Find itHere

James