Why do Protestants deny that this is inspired?

[Love_is_Patient]

“Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls; for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.

Wisdom 2:2-3:3​

---

I’m just curious. It seems pretty much a straightforward prophecy of Jesus.

Love is Patient

 

[sbaum]

Honestly, before I started thinking about converting, I didn’t even know there were other books. It’s just never brought up. In my opinion, it’s not out of actively trying to hide it (at least in the churches I’ve been to), but more of, this is the bible that anyone who has grown up Protestant has always had.

Granted, I acknowledge ignorance isn’t an excuse, it’s just not really an issue for them/us (guess I’m not really in either group at this point). I could have a completely different experience but this is just my two cents

For the record, I have found Wisdom to be a pretty cool book since I found out it existed

 

[Tomb54]

Honestly, before I started thinking about converting, I didn’t even know there were other books. It’s just never brought up. In my opinion, it’s not out of actively trying to hide it (at least in the churches I’ve been to), but more of, this is the bible that anyone who has grown up Protestant has always had.

Granted, I acknowledge ignorance isn’t an excuse, it’s just not really an issue for them/us (guess I’m not really in either group at this point). I could have a completely different experience but this is just my two cents

For the record, I have found Wisdom to be a pretty cool book since I found out it existed

sbaum I will pray for you on your journey in faith. I like these verse from Malachi which prophecy how the gentiles will offer a pure sacrifice to God. A good picture of what goes on in a Catholic Mass as Christ is the only pure sacrifice. It is also a verse that I have not found a protestant has an answer for yet since it is simple in its interpretation.

11For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Honestly, before I started thinking about converting, I didn’t even know there were other books. It’s just never brought up. In my opinion, it’s not out of actively trying to hide it (at least in the churches I’ve been to), but more of, this is the bible that anyone who has grown up Protestant has always had.

Granted, I acknowledge ignorance isn’t an excuse, it’s just not really an issue for them/us (guess I’m not really in either group at this point). I could have a completely different experience but this is just my two cents

For the record, I have found Wisdom to be a pretty cool book since I found out it existed

God bless you on your journey of faith.

As a Catholic, I was probably 18 before i knew that Protestants and Catholics had different canons of Scripture. So I recognize that it’s probably not something that comes up very often in either tradition.

But it still is an issue, so I’m curious.

I love Wisdom too! Thanks for your :twocents:

Love is Patient

 

[Nine_Two]

What has been removed by Protestants is sad.

 

[Janet1983]

“Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls; for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.

Wisdom 2:2-3:3​

---

I’m just curious. It seems pretty much a straightforward prophecy of Jesus.

Love is Patient

Well He doesn’t really mention it…
GOD in Luke 24:44:

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Nine_Two]

Well He doesn’t really mention it…

If that verse is your basis you should also remove:
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicals
2 Chronicals
Ezra
Nehemiah
Job
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Daniel

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t know if “Protestants” deny it. I think most non catholic christians never have reason to ask about it.

And, as inspiring as it may be, it really doesn’t make a point to the main thing that ought to be holding you all together anyway.

The very sad thing, is Jesus wished for you all to be one.

And, even if you don’t like the reasons why (at this point in history) it became unbearable to be one,

you all must ask yourselves why your holy catholic church became so unbearable for any division to even be thought of.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t know if “Protestants” deny it. I think most non catholic christians never have reason to ask about it.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura requires a hard definition of just what constituted scripture. By not including these Holy Books they are denying they are scripture.

Which is why I’m personally less concerned with the Catholic lack of recognision of Psalm 151, vs. the Protestant denial of the Wisdom of Solomon.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura requires a hard definition of just what constituted scripture. By not including these Holy Books they are denying they are scripture.

Which is why I’m personally less concerned with the Catholic lack of recognision of Psalm 151, vs. the Protestant denial of the Wisdom of Solomon.

Okay, you got my attention. What’s up with that?

 

[Janet1983]

If that verse is your basis you should also remove:
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicals
2 Chronicals
Ezra
Nehemiah
Job
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Daniel

Wait a second… he does not mention this passage as a prophecy about Him… That’s all I said.

I’m just curious. It seems pretty much a straightforward prophecy of Jesus.

Well He doesn’t really mention it…

GOD in Luke 24:44:

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Wait a second… he does not mention this passage as a prophecy about Him… That’s all I said.

Compare Matthew 27:43 to Wisdom 2:17-18.

Love is Patient

 

[AmateurPianist]

Just to use the same logic:

Why do Catholics (and Protestants and Orthodox for that matter) deny this is inspired:

For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh,18 and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, "Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit."19 And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors.20 And after his resurrection He did eat and drink with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.

…just a random passage from the epistle of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Just to use the same logic:

Why do Catholics (and Protestants and Orthodox for that matter) deny this is inspired:

For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh,18 and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, "Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit."19 And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors.20 And after his resurrection He did eat and drink with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.

Here St. Ignatius is quoting the Gospels. In the Book of Wisdom, we have a prophecy of Jesus.

I’m afraid I’m not following your logic.

Love is Patient

 

[AmateurPianist]

Here St. Ignatius is quoting the Gospels. In the Book of Wisdom, we have a prophecy of Jesus.

I’m afraid I’m not following your logic.

Love is Patient

Simple:

Correct me if I am wrong, but your logic appears to be:

Book ‘X’ contains this passage that is orthodox Christian doctrine.

Why shouldn’t this book be a part of the canon.

Hey, for all I know there are good, solid reasons why the book of Wisdom should be in the canon. This is an issue I really have not studied yet.

But, the logic you are presenting would not be one of them.

 

[JonNC]

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura requires a hard definition of just what constituted scripture. By not including these Holy Books they are denying they are scripture.

The first sentence contradicts the fact that, at least technically, Lutheransim has never “closed” its canon. In your second sentence, I believe there is just cause for Lutherans to rediscover the D-C books, and consider them in the positive way that Luther and others who throughout history questioned their canonicity, but not their value, did.

So, for this Lutheran, the criticism is understood. I can’t and won’t speak for (other) Protestants.

Jon

 

[pgerpup]

Well, I probably shouldn’t be posting, but I’ve been and Episcopalian all my life and we’ve always had bibles that included the Apocrypha. Do Catholics call those books the Apocrypha?

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Simple:

Correct me if I am wrong, but your logic appears to be:

Book ‘X’ contains this passage that is orthodox Christian doctrine.

Why shouldn’t this book be a part of the canon.

Hey, for all I know there are good, solid reasons why the book of Wisdom should be in the canon. This is an issue I really have not studied yet.

But, the logic you are presenting would not be one of them.

Allow me to try again.

Wisdom contains a prophecy of Christ.

It is a part of the canon of the Catholic and the canon of the Orthodox, but not of the Protestants.

Why do Protestants deny that it is part of the canon (and hence, inspired), when a) the majority of Christians throughout history have accepted it as canonical and b) it’s a clear prophecy of Christ?

St. Ignatius’ letters have never been part of the Catholic or Orthodox canon, so it’s not a clear comparison.

Love is Patient

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Well, I probably shouldn’t be posting, but I’ve been and Episcopalian all my life and we’ve always had bibles that included the Apocrypha. Do Catholics call those books the Apocrypha?

Nope. We refer to those books as the Deuterocanon, because we believe they are Scripture.

Apocryphal books (for Catholics) include such things as the Gospel of Thomas, which are NOT Scripture.

Love is Patient

 

[East_Anglican]

“Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls; for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.

Wisdom 2:2-3:3​

---

I’m just curious. It seems pretty much a straightforward prophecy of Jesus.

Love is Patient

Of course it is inspired. But Being inspired doesn’t make something scripture. Thomas A Kemps’ The Imitation of Christ was obviously inspired too but nobody would suggest it was on the same par as Saint Pauls epistle to The Romans.

You can find paasages like Wisdom 2:2-3:3 in Hindu scriptures and among Greek pagan lwritings too but they’re not canon either but further confirm that God didn’t leave people without a witness.