Why do Protestants get a "free pass" ?

[Mickey]

djrakowski:

I specifically stated that it isn’t uncharitable to disagree with doctrine. Rather, I took issue with this:
I would rather he took issue with doctrine, which is something I can answer (or at least attempt to answer).

I work with a fellow who’s taught catechism (CCD? I don’t know the exact terminology) to young elementary students. He believed that he didn’t need to go by the book, but rather chose to teach whatever he wanted. In his opinion, the Church is too rigid, and hasn’t kept up with the times. I know another who admitted to me that she knitted as her students read quietly, didn’t bother teaching anything unless someone asked her a question, and only stopped to enforce discipline (and she had the guts to complain about the religious ed director asking her to step down). And, then, there’s the differences that lead to discussions about just which priest/parish/bishop/diocese is orthodox, heterodox, or schismatic, where the most liturgical abuses are occurring, etc. But, I’ve chosen not to make blanket statements like “there obivously aren’t any serious Catholics, because I’ve never met one.” I know that’s not true, in part because of all the sincere and dedicated Catholics I’ve met on these forums, and I choose instead to view dissident, lukewarm and disobedient Catholics as aberrations and not the norm.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

djrakowski:

Ni Nancy… nice to see you chiming in here, as I enjoyed our exchange on the other Protestant repentance thread. I must take exception, however, to the idea that, as Catholics, you have access to more channels of grace than I do as a Protestant. Your church teaches that the eucharistic elements must consist of wheat bread and grape wine that contains alcohol. That rules out my son, who has a very severe physical intolerance to those substances, and according the rules of Rome, he would not be eligible to receive grace through that channel. In fact, Rome has gone so far as to deny men with celiac disease from receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders. That makes it two channels of grace from which my son is effectively blocked. Within our tradition, however, we go straight to the source of grace, and my son may receive just as much of God’s free gift as anyone else.

Dan

Hi Dan!

The sacraments that all Catholics receive (baptism, reconciliation, Eucharist, confirmation, and annointing of the sick) are the ones through which sanctifying grace is imparted; that grace which is necessary for salvation. The sacraments of vocation (holy orders and matrimony) don’t impart sanctifying grace but rather that grace necessary to faithfully live out the vocation; supernatural help, if you will. Therefore, by not receiving holy orders your son is not “missing out” on any sanctifying grace.

Generally those who cannot take the bread just take the wine. I’ve not heard of a condition by which one has a serious physical reaction of some sort to a drop of wine. I’m not familiar with that condition but I’m interested to learn. Will you post some more about that?? I’m sincerely interested!

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[puzzleannie]

cannot find Dan’s original post but Nancy’s quote of it contains some erroneous assumptions.

1. the church does and has ordained priests with celiac disease and we have at least two I know of in this diocese. They use an extremely low-gluten host and consume only a particle, and use a low-mustum wine, and consume only a tiny amount. One elderly priest is dispensed from consuming any of the host since he has an esophogeal ulcer and cannot swallow it.
2. It is extremely rare that a celiac is sensitive to both the consecrated host and to the consecrated wine. In my former parish wine was poured into a special vessel and consecrated separately for 2 celiac children, so that no risk was present from mixing the particle of consecrated bread, which is done in the main chalice only. We also had a provision for a special vessel for the deacon to carry consecrated wine to the sick who could not swallow the host.

the church has made every possible provision so that everyone may partake of the Eucharist, and reminds us that the Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity of Jesus Christ is fully present both in the form of consecrated bread and in the consecrated wine, so receiving either is full participation in the Eucharist.

What the Church cannot and will not do is change or tamper with the institutions of Christ himself, because it has no authority to do so.

 

[Jade]

Bixbyg said: They, in my humble opinion, are on a fast track to hell paved with good intentions.

This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why is it that a lot of Catholics believe that Protostants are ‘not fully there’ or ‘haven’t got it quite right.’ Aren’t we all brothers and sisters in Christ? I guess one could argue that they are not *fully *enjoying the Church, but then again, if they are born and brought up in their denomination and know nothing more and are satisfied and find God in their church, who are we to say that that is not right? That they ‘don’t get it all the way?’ I know many people who are protostant and I see the way that they are and they are very Christain and for them, God touches them where they are. I don’t think we can judge them by saying that they are “not quite there yet”.

If you could enlighten me, I would like that.
Thanks!

 

[djrakowski]

Catholic4aReasn:

Generally those who cannot take the bread just take the wine. I’ve not heard of a condition by which one has a serious physical reaction of some sort to a drop of wine. I’m not familiar with that condition but I’m interested to learn. Will you post some more about that?? I’m sincerely interested!

Hi Nancy… thanks for your concern! I’m going to address your comments, as well as those of ‘puzzleannie’ in this message. My son’s condition is so severe that he cannot tolerate even the low-gluten foods approved by various celiac associations. According to most of the celiac literature, oats are supposed to be safe. However, even one Cheerio makes him sick for an entire week, with diahrrea, loss of appetite, disrupted sleep, hyperactivity and spaciness. I can relate at least one anecdote of a friend who has an aunt with celiac disease, and she cannot tolerate the Church-approved low-gluten hosts.

As for wine: my son is also highly sensitive to phenol and salicylate content in foods. It is impossible to eliminate these substances, because too many common foods have them, but you can reduce them by eliminating foods that contain them in high concentrations. This includes certain types of grapes (red are higher than green, but one of my sources recommends eliminating them altogether).

In addition, he has something called “leaky gut syndrome,” so products that don’t typically cause problems for other people, even in small amounts, affect him quite seriously. Once of those products is anything that includes alcohol.

Here are some reference links:

tacanow.com/phenols.htm (common low-phenol diet)
autism.org/leakygut.html (description of leaky gut)
ucheepines.org/leaky_gut.htm (leaky gut and alcohol)
gfcfdiet.com/unacceptable.htm (gluten/casein free list)

Here’s an article that quotes from a 1994 letter in which Cardinal Ratzinger speaks of disallowing men to receive Holy Orders if they suffer from celiac disease:

adoremus.org/CDF_Lowgluten-mustum94.html

Furthermore, it mentions that those in need of low-gluten hosts or mustum have to request special permission from the Holy See!

I’m still trying to reason why the Church believes that our all-powerful God cannot, or refuses to, change anything but wheat bread and alcohol wine into His body, blood, soul and divinity. That’s an awfully small box to place Him in! Nobody has given me any answer more detailed than, “that’s what Jesus commanded.” I may be reading a different Bible, but I don’t think it said anything about “do this” equating to alcohol and gluten!

Dan

 

[djrakowski]

puzzleannie:

the church has made every possible provision so that everyone may partake of the Eucharist, and reminds us that the Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity of Jesus Christ is fully present both in the form of consecrated bread and in the consecrated wine, so receiving either is full participation in the Eucharist.

No, it hasn’t. I’ve given quite a bit of evidence that my son will never be able to receive the eucharist in a Catholic church as a result of his metabolic disabilities. And he’s not the only one.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Dan!

I guess my question was would your son react to one single drop of wine? If he were to just touch the wine to his lips would he have an adverse reaction? Christ is fully present in each and every drop.

Last weekend my 9 year old daughter tipped the cup too quickly and came back to her seat with a moustache. I pointed it out to her and she was ready to wipe it on her sleeve but I had her lick it off instead since every bit on her lip contained Christ. She giggled and said “I guess I had a Jesus moustache”.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[djrakowski]

Catholic4aReasn:

I guess my question was would your son react to one single drop of wine? If he were to just touch the wine to his lips would he have an adverse reaction? Christ is fully present in each and every drop.

Yes, one single drop. He even reacts negatively to items that are considered safe by celiac experts, such as the oats used to make Cheerios. Experimenting to see what would happen with wine is out of the question, as every time we’ve tried to add something back into his diet, he’s had a very violent reaction. We’re not interested in going back to the days where he was practically malnourished, below the body-mass scale for his age and height, and suffering from chronic diahrrea (believe me, the school personnel who change his diapers most definitely agree )

Catholic4aReasn:

Last weekend my 9 year old daughter tipped the cup too quickly and came back to her seat with a moustache. I pointed it out to her and she was ready to wipe it on her sleeve but I had her lick it off instead since every bit on her lip contained Christ. She giggled and said “I guess I had a Jesus moustache”.

Thanks for sharing that story. She sounds like a sweet kid!

Dan

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

…I was wondering. I still have quite a few of free passes {for salvation} from my monoply game. Any body interested are welcome to them…

Better save 'em, you may need 'em more then us.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

Better save 'em, you may need 'em more then us.

Hi Malachi, Thanks but I,m all set. Jesus has gone and prepared a room for me already. I was only trying to be helpful. God Bless

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Exporter:

THIS IS WORTH READING AGAIN: ********************************************************************
Do the Protestants get a break? I say No. They are fooling them selves. The Catholic Church is specific, it will tell you straight out what you should do. I know that Protestants do not tell their young what they need to do to achieve heaven…it’s all so social and not ecclesiastical. That Protestants have it “easy” is an illusion, we Catholics have it easier - we KNOW what we have to do! I say ignorance is not an excuse.

Aside from the fact that the Church is specific, I think your response may be a bit harsh. I’m really surprised that no one here referred to Lumen Gentium :

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

 

[Katholikos]

If this boy were Catholic – which his father has said he’s not – some accommodation could and would be worked out for him that was acceptable to his doctors. I think this is an issue being used as a club to beat up the Catholic Church.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

DetroitSue wrote: Aside from the fact that the Church is specific, I think your response may be a bit harsh. I’m really surprised that no one here referred to Lumen Gentium :

That’s not all Lumen Gentium says on the subject.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Jade:

Bixbyg said: They, in my humble opinion, are on a fast track to hell paved with good intentions.

This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why is it that a lot of Catholics believe that Protostants are ‘not fully there’ or ‘haven’t got it quite right.’ Aren’t we all brothers and sisters in Christ? I guess one could argue that they are not *fully *enjoying the Church, but then again, if they are born and brought up in their denomination and know nothing more and are satisfied and find God in their church, who are we to say that that is not right? That they ‘don’t get it all the way?’ I know many people who are protostant and I see the way that they are and they are very Christain and for them, God touches them where they are. I don’t think we can judge them by saying that they are “not quite there yet”.

If you could enlighten me, I would like that.
Thanks!

Relativism is the heresy du jour for the 20th and 21st centuries.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

djrakowski:

Yes, one single drop. He even reacts negatively to items that are considered safe by celiac experts, such as the oats used to make Cheerios. Experimenting to see what would happen with wine is out of the question, as every time we’ve tried to add something back into his diet, he’s had a very violent reaction. We’re not interested in going back to the days where he was practically malnourished, below the body-mass scale for his age and height, and suffering from chronic diahrrea (believe me, the school personnel who change his diapers most definitely agree )

Hi Dan!

Thanks for being so patient with all my questions!

Celiac disease includes things other than oats, wheat and other grains? You mentioned grapes. Certain fruits are a part of this disease as well?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Katholikos]

djrakowski:

I must take exception, however, to the idea that, as Catholics, you have access to more channels of grace than I do as a Protestant. Your church teaches that the eucharistic elements must consist of wheat bread and grape wine that contains alcohol. That rules out my son, who has a very severe physical intolerance to those substances, and according the rules of Rome, he would not be eligible to receive grace through that channel. In fact, Rome has gone so far as to deny men with celiac disease from receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders. That makes it two channels of grace from which my son is effectively blocked. Within our tradition, however, we go straight to the source of grace, and my son may receive just as much of God’s free gift as anyone else.

Dan

The Sacraments are the only sure and certain channels of Sanctifying Grace; that is, God’s Own Divine Life.

“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and holiness . . . that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world . . . and become partakers in the divine nature” 2 Peter 1:1-4.

However, though He created these channels and provided them to His Church, God is not limited by His Sacraments.

JMJ Jay

 

[silverbullet]

Read 1 john and James for more clarification on that. I do not see this as a protestant or catholic issue. It is just the word. If you truly are in Christ, even though you slip, in general, your life will reflect that new life in Christ.

Confessing to a priest is a fine sacriment but the bible also says ‘confess our sins to one another’, so it is posible if a person confesses only to a priest, they are not getting real.

The reason I like confessing to a priest is because it is like being transparent before a man of God and it takes courage to do that. But confessing to brothers and sisters in Christ, IMO, is also important for another reason.

Laura

 

[djrakowski]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Dan!

Thanks for being so patient with all my questions!

Celiac disease includes things other than oats, wheat and other grains? You mentioned grapes. Certain fruits are a part of this disease as well?

In Christ,
Nancy

Nancy - the substances other than gluten are part of his other food intolerances, which includes an impaired ability to process phenols, salicylates, casein, soy, eggs, peanuts, oranges and artificial colors.

Thanks for your interest,
Dan

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

silverbullet:

Confessing to a priest is a fine sacriment but the bible also says ‘confess our sins to one another’, so it is posible if a person confesses only to a priest, they are not getting real.

The reason I like confessing to a priest is because it is like being transparent before a man of God and it takes courage to do that. But confessing to brothers and sisters in Christ, IMO, is also important for another reason.

Laura

Hi Laura!

The trouble with that is that confessing your sins to just any ol’ brother or sister in Christ doesn’t do anything. It would certainly stand to reason that we should confess to those who have been given the authority to forgive sin.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[djrakowski]

Katholikos:

However, though He created these channels and provided them to His Church, God is not limited by His Sacraments.

Then why bother with them at all?