Why do Protestants get a "free pass" ?

[djrakowski]

Katholikos:

If this boy were Catholic – which his father has said he’s not – some accommodation could and would be worked out for him that was acceptable to his doctors. I think this is an issue being used as a club to beat up the Catholic Church.

I’ve taken great pains to explain that there are no acceptable alternatives - and that’s not just me being stubborn, or Catholic bashing - it is the medical truth. I’ll include the links again, in case you missed them the first time:

tacanow.com/phenols.htm (common low-phenol diet)
autism.org/leakygut.html (description of leaky gut)
ucheepines.org/leaky_gut.htm (leaky gut and alcohol)
gfcfdiet.com/unacceptable.htm (gluten/casein free list)

Thanks to you and everyone else for taking the time to answer my questions!

Dan

 

[Katholikos]

djrakowski:

Then why bother with them at all?

“Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

So wrote Ignatius of Antioch – mentored by St. John, ordained by St. Peter, befriended by St. Paul – to the Church at Smyrna in 110 A.D. (St. John died c. 100 A.D.)

Christ founded His Church for the salvation of the world and expects all His followers to belong to it. Christ gives us the Sacraments – sure and certain channels of Sanctifying Grace – through His Church. The Sacraments are His gifts, which nurture our souls with His Own Divine Life at every stage of our earthly journey to help us get to heaven.

However, God, being God, may do whatever He wills, and He ***may ***choose to dispense His grace outside His own sacramental system. Or He may not.

JMJ Jay

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

RiverRock:

I know this is a loaded question, so I’ll try to explain it as best as I can. I understand the story of the prodigal son, but something still bothers me. Feel free to haul me up short, if necessary. I’m a devoutly (as best as I can) believing Catholic, who is faithful to the Pope and Magesterium. There are some times that it’s tough to “stay in line” and stay out of sin. Why does it appear that when a Catholic crosses the line, even just once, we are on the fast-track to hell, but Protestants get a free pass? They can be always-saved-no-matter-what sins they commit, and still make it to Heaven, but once slip up from me, and it’s all over. Start the fires. In the vein of united all Christians as one, we give them far more wiggle room. Which brings me to my next question. I love the Church and I know it’s the true Church and I’ll never leave it. Ever. But, why remain Catholic? If (according to some Catholics) I’m a Jesus/Bible believing Christian, and I can still sin to beat the band, and STILL make it to Heaven, why wouldn’t I take the easier road? Have my cake and eat it too? Can anybody provide a satisfactory answer? In all that I’ve ever read, I’ve never seen one.

##** All Christians have the same title to Heaven - the Blood of Christ, and the grace of Christ. **

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**So we don’t get in to Heaven because we deserve to - what we deserve, is Hell. We have a right to be damned. It would be nothing but perfect and unanswerable justice, if we were all to be damned. But God does not save us because we are just (we are nothing of the sort); He saves us because He has prefers mercy to justice. **

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**It is essential for us to get into our heads, that grace is not in any way an excuse or justification for carrying on in sin. It was interpreted that way in St.Paul’s time, as we know, because he cries out against it. Protestants are often accused of it today. But it is an abuse of grace - St.Paul tells us this. But to accuse Protestants as a group of “sinning that grace may abound” is exactly the same as the notion that we can go to Confession in order to sin freely during the week. Both notions are warped, and neither is characteristic of Protestant or of Catholic theology. Do people deliberately catch infections, because they know that medical help is available to cure them ? Neither are we to trample the Blood of Christ underfoot that has brought us grace and salvation. **

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**The arguments against sin are innumerable. If we sin, we cannot enter heaven. For sin, is enmity towards God, and death to the soul. Sin is so great an evil, that it cost the Blood of Christ our God Himself, nothing less, to reconcile us with His Father. God is of such holiness, that He cannot approve evil. The devil was no devil until he was a sinner. **

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**If we think of sinning, and then of repenting on our death-beds, we are promising to ourselves things it is noyt in our power to guarantee ourselves. We can be sure neither that we will live long enough to repent, nor that we shall be granted the grace to repent. And sin coarsens us; it makes us less responsive to God; so that even this grace were extended to us, there is no guarantee whatever that we would accept it. For if we sin away God’s mercy, we must endure His justice. And in the book of Revelation, we read of men crying out because of “the wrath of the Lamb”; God’s wrath against sin must be very terrible if it can anger the Lamb of God. **

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**“No man can serve two masters - he will hate the one, and love the other”. If we are the brothers and sisters of Christ and the children of our Father Who is in Heaven, we will have His character, and His holy hatred of all sin. And that means that we must learn to hate sin as He does. That is why Saints see such horrors in themselves: they are so near to Christ, that His Light shines in them, so that they see by it how unlike Him they still are. That is how impossible it is for us to serve both the devil and Christ. **

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[cont’d…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Why should we remain Catholic ? Because God our Father has put us here His Will is to be done - we keep praying that - and He longs for us to become like His Son; and the best way we can do this, is to serve and love Him where he has put us. God’s Love is not a generalised well-wishing - it is love, and that means it is personal and individual. God loves us each as individuals. Christ loves His Bride the Church as an individual. So we matter to God - our very existence proves this. So as we are Catholics, we are Catholics for the best of reasons; God loves us, and we are among the means by which He spreads this Love to those who do not know Him as “this tremendous lover”. ##

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[end]

 

[scylla]

I cannot receive the Eucharist either in either of the the two species, that does not mean that I will not submit to the Church that Jesus founded. We as Catholics believe in Gods grace so fully that we baptize infants, so I as a Catholic can put my self before God and trust in his grace.
Now the only reason I cannot receive the Eucharist is that my wife and I entering the Church and will be married by a priest in a week and a half. I still cannot receive the Eucharist and lets suppose I die in the next week or so before I can. Then I will not have received it. As a Catholic I understand how important it is for me to have received it if I could, but I can’t so I put my trust in God and his Church.
Did the thief on the cross ever get to recieve the Eucharist, did he ever get baptized normally? The great thing about being a Catholic you can put your trust in Gods grace and His Church. You do what is possible to follow God in every way, but I would not abandon Christ’s Church just because it is trying to maintain the truth. The Church is bound and has to maintain it’s teaching until the end of time, but put your trust in Gods Grace and his Church.
Just ask any priest, if the thief on the cross went to hell, he didn’t go the normal way but he couldn’t.

No matter how bad the homily, how bad the music, how uncomfortable are the pews, how rude the people, I cannot deny that Jesus Christ started the Church. I can’t follow Martin Luther, John Smith, Chuck Smith or any of the other men, if I value my soul. Where else can you sit in the real presence of Christ and worship him in the Mass?

To get back to the main point, life is not supposed to be a cakewalk, don’t just say “Lord Lord”, you are supposed to take up your cross daily, who in their right mind would want to just have a free pass?

 

[Katholikos]

Great graces accrue to those who cannot receive Christ sacramentally, but who offer up the pain of their disappointment and ask Him to come to them spiritually.

An act of Spiritual Communion
My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love you above all things, and I long for you in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though you have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You.
~St. Alphonsus Liguori
JMJ Jay

 

[djrakowski]

Katholikos:

Great graces accrue to those who cannot receive Christ sacramentally, but who offer up the pain of their disappointment and ask Him to come to them spiritually.

An act of Spiritual Communion
My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love you above all things, and I long for you in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though you have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You.
~St. Alphonsus Liguori
JMJ Jay

Earlier in this thread, you said that the only certain means of grace involves receiving the sacraments. If this “Act of Spiritual Communion” imparts such “great graces,” then I ask again: why bother at all with the sacraments?

 

[djrakowski]

scylla:

I cannot receive the Eucharist either in either of the the two species, that does not mean that I will not submit to the Church that Jesus founded. We as Catholics believe in Gods grace so fully that we baptize infants, so I as a Catholic can put my self before God and trust in his grace.
Now the only reason I cannot receive the Eucharist is that my wife and I entering the Church and will be married by a priest in a week and a half. I still cannot receive the Eucharist and lets suppose I die in the next week or so before I can. Then I will not have received it. As a Catholic I understand how important it is for me to have received it if I could, but I can’t so I put my trust in God and his Church.
Did the thief on the cross ever get to recieve the Eucharist, did he ever get baptized normally? The great thing about being a Catholic you can put your trust in Gods grace and His Church. You do what is possible to follow God in every way, but I would not abandon Christ’s Church just because it is trying to maintain the truth. The Church is bound and has to maintain it’s teaching until the end of time, but put your trust in Gods Grace and his Church.

I’ve now read three posts in this thread that seem to nullify the necessity of receiving the sacraments. I equally put my trust in God, and teach my children to do the same, and yet, the Church claims I am receiving uncertain measures of God’s grace, saying that the only certain way is to receive the sacraments. Then, I read about “Spiritual Communion” and the thief on the cross who didn’t receive communion (or even presumably baptism). Therefore, I ask again: why bother with the sacraments? Spiritual communion isn’t a sacrament, but Katholikos included a quote about “great graces” attached to the act.

 

[scylla]

I in no way was trying to imply that sacraments aren’t necessary, they are the primary means that God enriches us by his grace. I am not a Catholic expert, so that is why I said go see a priest about the theif on the cross. They might mention, baptism of desire.
Just because someone can’t recieve one sacrament , that doesn’t make them any farther from God. Just because the thief couldn’t get baptized does that mean that the sacrament doesn’t matter? No way, he just couldn’t receive it and despite his situation and background he gave himself to God.
When I sit there and watch others go in the communion line, I do sit and pray instead, and I have prayed a spiritual communion prayer.
Now not doing what you are fully capable of doing, just because you don’t want to, now would worry me. Some people say I don’t need a Church, I have a good relationship with God. Once you know that Jesus came here started a Church, wouldn’t you want to be, as fully possible, in communion with it?

 

[mercygate]

A Catholic who is unable to receive the sacraments in a tangible way is nonetheless a member of the Body of Christ through his Baptism; if a Convert is unbaptized, he is, by intention and will, prepared to join himself to the Body of Christ in the Catholic Church and thereby he is disposed to receive the graces of that union.

A Protestant rejects the Church, and thereby rejects any means of grace attached to it. Therefore he would not receive the graces attached to the specific act of a spiritual Communion.

 

[mercygate]

mercygate:

A Protestant rejects the Church, and thereby rejects any means of grace attached to it. Therefore he would not receive the graces attached to the specific act of a spiritual Communion.

The spiritual Communion receives its validity from the Mass itself. This concept burrows deeply into the theology of the Mass and of the Communion of Saints.

 

[Katholikos]

djrakowski:

Earlier in this thread, you said that the only certain means of grace involves receiving the sacraments. If this “Act of Spiritual Communion” imparts such “great graces,” then I ask again: why bother at all with the sacraments?

I’m sorry my answers have not been clear. I’ll try again.

Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world. The Church is an extension of Himself. The Church is Christ’s Bride (Eph 5:25-33; 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:9-14, 22:17), His very Body (Col 1:15-18, 1:24, 2:19; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4-7, 4:11-6, Rm 12:4-5; 1 Cor 6:1, 12:27 et al.). When the Church speaks, it is Christ’s voice we hear (Luke 10:16 et al.). The Church is “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tm 3:15).

Christ endowed His Church with gifts called Sacraments (mysteries). They are sure and certain channels of Sanctifying Grace – i.e., His Own Divine Life. Every time the Sacrament of Baptism is properly administered, sins are washed away and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the soul of the baptized. Every time we repent and confess and absolution is pronounced by an authorized priest, sins are forgiven. Every time the Mass is celebrated, Christ’s Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, become present on the altar.

Christ tells us “Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” So of course we want to receive the Sacraments. We would be foolish not to! “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him” (John 6:53-56).

Christ decreed that these seven Sacraments – gifts given to us through His Church – would be the signs, the means, through which He would be present to us. These are the moments when we can touch Him and be touched by Him. He promised that when we receive Him in Holy Communion, He would abide (remain) in us and we in Him. Guaranteed. Always and forever. Sure and certain. Ex opere operato (from the work performed – i.e., grace is always conferred by a **Sacrament). So do we want to experience Him through these gifts when we know He will be present to us in a substantial, tangible way? You betcha.

But – God is kind and merciful. When we are unable to receive Him in the Eucharist, and we ask Him to come to us spiritually, we have confident hope that He hears our prayer.

The Church teaches that graces accrue to those who offer their disappointments and sufferings to God. As St. Paul wrote in Col 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. . .”

Those outside the Catholic Church who do not have access to the Sacraments also can have confident hope.

But confident hope is not infallible certainty. Christ is ***always ***present in the Sacraments, with infallible certainty. We have His Word on it.

Please ask again if it still isn’t clear. Thank you for your questions.

JMJ Jay

 

[beeboo992]

as a protestant i can tell you we do not get a free pass. salvation is a grace from God through Jesus and that is a gift we believe He never takes back. HOWEVER when you sin and we ALL do , we have the consequences to deal with. so maybe we will still get to heaven but we still have to deal with our choices on earth. there are many protestant groups that do believe you can lose your salvation. remember the bible says GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED! the one thing we are all taught is that you can fool the people around you but God will know the truth and He knows your heart. ours is a meriful God who is quick and just to forgive- BUT you have to have that conviction in your heart and you have to mean it. i was taught that we should never jump to our own conclusions about people and whether or not they are getting into heaven. only God knows for sure and we are all going to be quite surprised when we get there!

i hope this helps a little bit at least- God bless you all!

 

[Athanasiy]

I know this is a loaded question, so I’ll try to explain it as best as I can. I understand the story of the prodigal son, but something still bothers me. Feel free to haul me up short, if necessary. I’m a devoutly (as best as I can) believing Catholic, who is faithful to the Pope and Magesterium. There are some times that it’s tough to “stay in line” and stay out of sin. Why does it appear that when a Catholic crosses the line, even just once, we are on the fast-track to hell, but Protestants get a free pass? They can be always-saved-no-matter-what sins they commit, and still make it to Heaven, but once slip up from me, and it’s all over. Start the fires. In the vein of united all Christians as one, we give them far more wiggle room. Which brings me to my next question. I love the Church and I know it’s the true Church and I’ll never leave it. Ever. But, why remain Catholic? If (according to some Catholics) I’m a Jesus/Bible believing Christian, and I can still sin to beat the band, and STILL make it to Heaven, why wouldn’t I take the easier road? Have my cake and eat it too? Can anybody provide a satisfactory answer? In all that I’ve ever read, I’ve never seen one.

I have meat the people who after convertion to the Evangelical Church , they changed their lives and were transformed to the totally new people.
Looking at their lives and dedication , you could probably say that they have got a pass to heaven.
But I did not see many of those people .

And repentance of my neighbour actually has not much to do with my observation.
Because in the people’s eyes it can be’ the pass to heaven’, but in God’s eyes it can be ’ I never knew you’ .

Repentance its between God and me.
Repentance its a too private matter to hear , why should one express its feelings openly ? Let God be a Judge and witnesser of repentance !
What if repentance is not repentance at all ?

I remember , that in Greek Language there are few words for repentance.
There is metanoia which is a true repentance.
And there the words which express the repentance but not the true one.
Metamelomai …
So what if the repentance of the person is not metanoia ( change of heart , change of will )?

And repentance is for the life , not really for the moment , its more like a process of growing.

Pass to heaven is not healthy attitude.
Because the Church is a place for the sinners . ( Who can go to the Church but sinners ? )
If I am not a sinner , then I am self-righteous.

And also I know not a few people who wait that special , magic moment , when they will get a pass to heaven .
And those people waiting that moment all their lives till get get old or untill they will get tired from sin and later will repent.
But its a self - deception.
And pass to heaven idea , is the reason of that self - deception.

 

[angelusm]

I know this is a loaded question, so I’ll try to explain it as best as I can. I understand the story of the prodigal son, but something still bothers me. Feel free to haul me up short, if necessary. I’m a devoutly (as best as I can) believing Catholic, who is faithful to the Pope and Magesterium. There are some times that it’s tough to “stay in line” and stay out of sin. Why does it appear that when a Catholic crosses the line, even just once, we are on the fast-track to hell, but Protestants get a free pass? They can be always-saved-no-matter-what sins they commit, and still make it to Heaven, but once slip up from me, and it’s all over. Start the fires. In the vein of united all Christians as one, we give them far more wiggle room. Which brings me to my next question. I love the Church and I know it’s the true Church and I’ll never leave it. Ever. But, why remain Catholic? If (according to some Catholics) I’m a Jesus/Bible believing Christian, and I can still sin to beat the band, and STILL make it to Heaven, why wouldn’t I take the easier road? Have my cake and eat it too? Can anybody provide a satisfactory answer? In all that I’ve ever read, I’ve never seen one.

Nobody gets a free pass. Protestants say they get a free pass but they don’t, it doesn’t matter what they say. I don’t understand how can catholics care about those weird protestant beliefs. We are saved in hope, it means we have to be faithful untile the end of our lives and then we will be saved. There’s no easier road. The only proper road is the catholic one. All easier roads are roads to hell. If you make a sin you should go to a confession and do your best to avoid a sin next time. And nothing is over. How do you kow protestants will get into heaven? They have no real presence, no confession, they ofen hate and attack the CC. It doesn’t matter at all what they say. Why don’t you listen to the pope instead to listening to protestants? God bless.

 

[pauliztarza]

I know this is a loaded question, so I’ll try to explain it as best as I can. I understand the story of the prodigal son, but something still bothers me. Feel free to haul me up short, if necessary. I’m a devoutly (as best as I can) believing Catholic, who is faithful to the Pope and Magesterium. There are some times that it’s tough to “stay in line” and stay out of sin. Why does it appear that when a Catholic crosses the line, even just once, we are on the fast-track to hell, but Protestants get a free pass? They can be always-saved-no-matter-what sins they commit, and still make it to Heaven, but once slip up from me, and it’s all over. Start the fires. In the vein of united all Christians as one, we give them far more wiggle room. Which brings me to my next question. I love the Church and I know it’s the true Church and I’ll never leave it. Ever. But, why remain Catholic? If (according to some Catholics) I’m a Jesus/Bible believing Christian, and I can still sin to beat the band, and STILL make it to Heaven, why wouldn’t I take the easier road? Have my cake and eat it too? Can anybody provide a satisfactory answer? In all that I’ve ever read, I’ve never seen one.

Sure. Point is to accept Christ as a spiritual master.Means to learn from Him.Then you simply won’t sin - because you are looking at your master and He didn’t sin.

Point ? Sin is not an option if Christ is your master. LIke robbery - would you rob the supermarket if you had the right example in your household ?

I had the same question when became suspicious of the priests and what they stood for.