Why do protestants go to church?

[MsLord]

I completely understand what you are saying and questioning. I was reading some things this week by some of our Catholic Apologists about the inevitable end of all Protestantism, and it is just that, an exodus away from attending church altogether and following more of a “personalized” Jesus experience and relationship fabricated on what an individual likes and dislikes, rather than based on truth. These people call themselves “spiritual, and not religious”, which only means they want the cake without actually baking it.

MsLord:

No offense, but I really don’t think a Catholic Apologist is in the position to make claims about the why’s and wherefore’s of anything Protestant related. They also have no way of “accurately” knowing about any exodus away from attending church in fact, I could say it’s a flat out untruth. As for Christians calling themselves “spiritual and not religious,” that’s laughable! NO ONE who has a relationship with Christ Jesus would call themselves spiritual, it’s just not going to happen. Of course Catholics can “hope” Protestantism is going to end, but saying it is truthfully is quite different, and in my opinion, very mean spirited. Why write on another religious group anyway? I read article after article where a Catholic is saying, Protestants this, and Protestants that…and yet they get their boxers in a wad over a Protestant writing about Catholocism, *always saying they’re wrong *- even if the writer was Catholic for 40+ years!

TravisDover:

Nobody ever requests there be law without an organized, established body to enforce the law, but somehow, people believe they can understand God purely with their own limited, and ignorant understanding. I’m not name-calling; I will classify myself “ignorant” for years to come, seeing I’m studying daily and praying as much as I can so I can be as “Catholic” as our Pope. Until then, I will take his opinion (along with our priests, deacons, and apologists) closer to heart than my own.

MsLord:

People who have turned their lives over to Christ Jesus are indwelled with and guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore whatever is contained in the Bible will interpret itself after studying it enough. It’s really not as complicated as people make it out to be. It certainly doesn’t take volumes of other written materials to clarify what singular verses on a singular topic mean, such as I’ve read in your Catechism that are so wordy you’re scratching your head wondering, huh?

I find it interesting that Catholics refer to themselves as Catholics, instead of Christians, as you even wanted to be more Catholic, instead of more Christian. I even read a post by someone on this board saying something to the effect of, why don’t Christians do this like we Catholics do? Seems rather odd to me.

TravisDover:

Thanks for posting on this topic. It’s an important one. We should all be praying that Protestants find a form of renewal and reinvigeration to attend church on Sundays. I’m very frightened that one day we will wake up to a country so watered-down spiritually, that people will not only do evil, but justify their evil based on their own decided beliefs about Christ, tagging his name to their evils.

Travis Dover

MsLord:

Attending church is important and all too many people are disregarding the importance of it anymore, but I certainly don’t think it’s tied to one specific branch of believers. I think one of the “main” reasons people don’t go to church is they’re tired of the blatent hypocrisy. People with religious convictions are screaming from the rooftops, “you have to do this, you have to do that, you can’t do this you can’t do that,” at the entire nation, and yet as examples, they’re failing miserably.

 

[hn160]

Protestants have 2 sacraments, Baptism and Matrimony as these are the only 2 that can be confected without priestly ordination. I would agree Protestants get grace through those means but they each happen only once (generally) in a lifetime. Neither of them constitute a reason to go to a service weekly.

Lutherans have three Sacraments: Baptism, Absolution and the Lord’s Supper, the rest that RCC has are considered as rites.
The main reason to go to church each Sunday is to be fed by Christ by His Word read and preached, by His forgiveness of sins in Absolution and in the Holy Supper where we eat His Body and drink His Blood in the bread and wine for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[pismopal]

I only protest what I think is a very rare thing which your post turned into a common occurrence. Not every church is looking for a charismatic preacher. Not every church is looking for someone to fill up the sanctuary.

I know of churches who have been losing members for years and struggle to pay the light bill. They keep the same preacher though.

Talent comes at a price and you know that. Talent is looking for the best package. The guys who have the talent don’t just go where they might be needed, they do what is best for themselves and you should know that. I am going to admit that you are unconvinced and just agree to disagree as my assertion (as well as yours) cannot be proven. Common sense and human nature is, I submit, on my side.

 

[TravisDover]

MsLord:
Because I’m limitted on time, I’ll responde to you pointedly…
As a Catholic, and I’m sure I can speak for many other Catholics, I do not hope for the end of Protestantism. I don’t know how you got that from my post. In fact, it is my wish that Protestants were even more devout. I wish Catholics too were more devout. You say it is mean spirited to point out the inevitable end of a disembodied system that allows its believers to redefine and customize Christ in accordance to what an individual wishes. I think this is downright dangerous. Jesus isn’t up for debate. He came to establish a “Church” of believers of “one mind, one body”.
Unlike you, I welcome the rebuttal of Protestants to what I believe, and I feel you and other Christians should have the freedom to express anything you believe to be true, just like what you are doing on this forum.
You say, “whatever is contained in the Bible will interpret itself after studying it enough,” yet there are over 33,820 Protestant denominations (World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001, protestant source) with different ideas of scripture and Jesus. Furthermore, you will find nowhere in scripture where it says the Bible is the only authority in the teaching of scriptures or Jesus, but the “traditions” are commanded to be carried on everywhere in Paul’s writings. Many Protestants forget that it was the Catholic Church that compiled the Bible, and the Bible does not conflict with the Church or go against her teachings. That’s like saying a Cook Book goes against the teachings of the Cook who wrote it.
Thank God for the Catechism, so all believers might be on the same page as to what the Church has taught as sound doctrine for 2000 years so to prevent more schisms and heresy.
You are right about the hypocrisy; unfortunately it can be rampant in all faiths. People truly need to practice what they preach and believe. It’s a hard road for all of us though, so I certainly believe the drug addict can have a true love for Christ, but because of his addiction, he isn’t a hypocrite, but disabled. This goes for those addicted to masturbation, drinking, gossip, and other things that make one a hypocrite.

Thank you, MsLord. Keep the faith. God’s peace and love be with you.

-Travis Dover

 

[TravisDover]

Lutherans have three Sacraments: Baptism, Absolution and the Lord’s Supper, the rest that RCC has are considered as rites.
The main reason to go to church each Sunday is to be fed by Christ by His Word read and preached, by His forgiveness of sins in Absolution and in the Holy Supper where we eat His Body and drink His Blood in the bread and wine for the forgiveness of sins.

I’m sorry, I have to correct you. Lutherans do not have the sacrament of the Eucharist; only the Catholic Church does. Lutherans have “remembrance” of Jesus but do not believe the bread to be real body and the wine to be real blood of Jesus. Like all other Protestant Churches, Lutherans do not believe Jesus when he was speaking literally about how one must eat his flesh and drink his blood for eternal life. If you will remember from John, the masses abandoned Jesus when he said these things because the teaching was too hard for them. He had to then ask his disciples if they too were going to leave him, when Peter stood up and said likened to, “Lord, where would we go?” It was a very hard teaching for even people in Jesus’ day. This was also the first time we read Judas betrays Jesus. The second time he does is also at “the Lord’s Supper”.

Furthermore, nobody outside of the Catholic Church have apostolic tradition of sacred orders. They are not ordained into the priesthood handed down generation after generation of bishops and priests from the time of Peter as the first pope. The Eucharist is the body of Christ, which can only be found in Jesus’ church, the Catholic Church.

Catholics enter into the sacrifice that happened almost 2000 years ago and partake in the sacred supper. Lutherans and Protestants have more of a ritualistic rememberance.

Also, no other church but the Catholic Church can grant absolution for sins. It is because Jesus entrusted his apostles to “forgive sins” and those apostles since have handed down the tradition of absolution throughout the Church. Anyone not in communion with the Church as a priest, deacon, or bishop cannot “bind or loose”.

Just clearing things up. A great resource for you is newadvent.org, and click on the upper-right corner’s “Encyclopedia” and look up “sacraments”, “eucharist”, “absolution”. God love you.

-Travis

 

[TravisDover]

Sure they do!! Do you not think that one is strengthened in baptism, strengthened in their marriage when they gather with the congregation of believers, the Church?
That said, reagrdless of Catholic teaching, Lutherans also have the true body and blood of Christ, and Absolution. I would also contend that the means of grace are present in Confirmation and even orders.

Jon

Hello Jon,

You can see my other post for more detail, but I’m trying to derail this misconception that somehow anyone other than the Catholic Church as the real presence of our Lord, his flesh and blood. This is utterly untrue. Any other church broken away from Christ’s Church, which is the Catholic Church which has held true to traditions for 2000 years, has the ability and means of having the real presence of our Blessed Lord. Jesus started a “Church” with Peter as the “rock”. He established an apostleship to bind and loose, to forgive and retain sins. This Church he built would be the Catholic Church, even today. Anyone who has cut themselves off from Christ’s Church is not the real church. You still can worship and love Christ, he will hold us all accountable in regards to every individual’s culpability and knowledge of Him.

But let’s be clear, all the real sacraments, every one of them, make up the framework for the Catholic Church. Other breakoffs and protesters have some of the sacraments like matrimony and baptism, but they cannot have the others because of their chosen path to be separated from Christ’s Church. I recommend you read Jimmy Akin’s book, “The Fathers Know Best,” and you will see how scholars and doctors of the original Church (Catholic Church) viewed the sacraments.

God love you,

Travis

 

[JonNC]

Hello Jon,

You can see my other post for more detail, but I’m trying to derail this misconception that somehow anyone other than the Catholic Church as the real presence of our Lord, his flesh and blood. This is utterly untrue. Any other church broken away from Christ’s Church, which is the Catholic Church which has held true to traditions for 2000 years, has the ability and means of having the real presence of our Blessed Lord. Jesus started a “Church” with Peter as the “rock”. He established an apostleship to bind and loose, to forgive and retain sins. This Church he built would be the Catholic Church, even today. Anyone who has cut themselves off from Christ’s Church is not the real church. You still can worship and love Christ, he will hold us all accountable in regards to every individual’s culpability and knowledge of Him.

But let’s be clear, all the real sacraments, every one of them, make up the framework for the Catholic Church. Other breakoffs and protesters have some of the sacraments like matrimony and baptism, but they cannot have the others because of their chosen path to be separated from Christ’s Church. I recommend you read Jimmy Akin’s book, “The Fathers Know Best,” and you will see how scholars and doctors of the original Church (Catholic Church) viewed the sacraments.

God love you,

Travis

And His love also with you.

Very few here, Travis, certainly not hn or me, are unaware of the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter, and you do well to believe and state it, as you are Catholic. Of course, even the CC teaches that others not in communion with the Bishop of Rome have it.

And while this is probably not the thread for it, suffice it to say that with great and due respect, we disagree. We do not deny the real presence of the precious body and blood of Christ are present in the Catholic Eucharist, we also know His presence, true and substantial, in ours.

And even if it were so, though it is not, that His presence is something less than His true and real body and blood in our Eucharist, one Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger once said of:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper.

Salvation-granting. Indeed!

Jon

 

[hn160]

I’m sorry, I have to correct you. Lutherans do not have the sacrament of the Eucharist; only the Catholic Church does. Lutherans have “remembrance” of Jesus but do not believe the bread to be real body and the wine to be real blood of Jesus. Like all other Protestant Churches, Lutherans do not believe Jesus when he was speaking literally about how one must eat his flesh and drink his blood for eternal life. If you will remember from John, the masses abandoned Jesus when he said these things because the teaching was too hard for them. He had to then ask his disciples if they too were going to leave him, when Peter stood up and said likened to, “Lord, where would we go?” It was a very hard teaching for even people in Jesus’ day. This was also the first time we read Judas betrays Jesus. The second time he does is also at “the Lord’s Supper”.

Furthermore, nobody outside of the Catholic Church have apostolic tradition of sacred orders. They are not ordained into the priesthood handed down generation after generation of bishops and priests from the time of Peter as the first pope. The Eucharist is the body of Christ, which can only be found in Jesus’ church, the Catholic Church.

Catholics enter into the sacrifice that happened almost 2000 years ago and partake in the sacred supper. Lutherans and Protestants have more of a ritualistic rememberance.

Also, no other church but the Catholic Church can grant absolution for sins. It is because Jesus entrusted his apostles to “forgive sins” and those apostles since have handed down the tradition of absolution throughout the Church. Anyone not in communion with the Church as a priest, deacon, or bishop cannot “bind or loose”.

Just clearing things up. A great resource for you is newadvent.org, and click on the upper-right corner’s “Encyclopedia” and look up “sacraments”, “eucharist”, “absolution”. God love you.

-Travis

Beg to differ, but that is your view which reflects the R.C.C. position but the Lutheran Church thinks otherwise:
Yet, the Church in the proper sense has the Holy Spirit. Although wolves and wicked teachers run rampant in the Church, they are not properly Christkingdom. Just as Lyra also testifies when he says:
The Church does not consist of people in power or ecclesiastical or secular dignity, because many princes and archbishops and others of lower rank have been found to have apostatized from the faith. Therefore, the Church consists of those persons in whom there is a true knowledge and confession of faith and truth.

We have said nothing more in our Confession than what Lyra says here.
23 The adversaries perhaps require that the Church be defined in the following way. To them, the Church is the supreme outward monarchy of the whole world. In this Church the Roman pontiff’s power is unquestioned. No one is allowed to argue against it or criticize it. He sets up articles of faith or abolishes them and abolishes the Scriptures according to his pleasure. He approves worship ceremonies and sacrifices to frame whatever laws he may wish. He dispenses and exempts from whatever laws (divine, canonical, or civil) he may wish. From him, the emperor and all kings receive the power and right to hold their kingdoms according to Christ’s command. It must be understood that this right was transferred from Christ
Concordia : The Lutheran Confessions. Edited by Paul Timothy McCain. St. Louis, MO : Concordia Publishing House, 2005, S. 146

 

[JonNC]

I’m sorry, I have to correct you. Lutherans do not have the sacrament of the Eucharist; only the Catholic Church does. Lutherans have “remembrance” of Jesus but do not believe the bread to be real body and the wine to be real blood of Jesus. Like all other Protestant Churches, Lutherans do not believe Jesus when he was speaking literally about how one must eat his flesh and drink his blood for eternal life. If you will remember from John, the masses abandoned Jesus when he said these things because the teaching was too hard for them. He had to then ask his disciples if they too were going to leave him, when Peter stood up and said likened to, “Lord, where would we go?” It was a very hard teaching for even people in Jesus’ day. This was also the first time we read Judas betrays Jesus. The second time he does is also at “the Lord’s Supper”.
-Travis

Travis,
I wanted to respond to this part of your post to hn. When you speak of the Catholic teaching regarding our Eucharist, you correctly portray it (though not regarding an exclusivity within the Catholic Church, as the CC recognizes Orthodox, PNCC, and others).
However, your portrayal of Lutheran belief is factually untrue. Lutherans believe, without wavering or doubt, that when Christ said “This is my body”, He meant it is His body. Lutherans reject, without qualification, a mere symbolic presence, or simple remembrance. I refer you to the following link regarding Lutheran belief on the Eucharist.
bookofconcord.org/defense_8_holysupper.php

Jon

 

[TravisDover]

Travis,
I wanted to respond to this part of your post to hn. When you speak of the Catholic teaching regarding our Eucharist, you correctly portray it (though not regarding an exclusivity within the Catholic Church, as the CC recognizes Orthodox, PNCC, and others).
However, your portrayal of Lutheran belief is factually untrue. Lutherans believe, without wavering or doubt, that when Christ said “This is my body”, He meant it is His body. Lutherans reject, without qualification, a mere symbolic presence, or simple remembrance. I refer you to the following link regarding Lutheran belief on the Eucharist.
bookofconcord.org/defense_8_holysupper.php

Jon

Sorry, reading my post over again, I didn’t articulate what I thought I wanted to. Lutherans do indeed believe they are taking Jesus’ body, and spiritually they do, even though it is not in the sacramental form. I was confusing the “spiritual” v. the “sacramental”. . . To clarify, and because my arm is burning from a recent surgery, I’ll past a response from Catholic Answers and the link:

"For the consecration of the elements to take place, it must be performed by a ministerial priest, whose role is different from that of the universal priesthood all believers. Since the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the other ancient Christian churches have preserved the ministerial priesthood through the apostolic succession of bishops, their Eucharist is valid.

Unfortunately, the ministerial priesthood has not been retained in Protestant churches. Most Protestant churches (all but the Anglican/Episcopalian tradition) have rejected the existence of a ministerial priesthood distinct from the universal priesthood and thus ceased to perpetuate it, breaking the apostolic succession in their circles.

It is equally unfortunate that, while many Anglicans/Episcopalians profess belief in a ministerial priesthood, the apostolic succession was ruptured in their circles, and their priesthood is no longer valid. After Henry VIII broke away from the Church, his successor, Edward VI, introduced a drastically altered and invalid version of the rite of ordination, with the result that the apostolic succession (which had previously been present in the Anglican Church) ceased, and its ministerial priesthood stopped.

This does not mean that Protestants such as Lutherans and Anglicans do not experience a real encounter with Jesus in the Eucharist. They can receive Jesus spiritually in communion, they just do not receive him in the full, sacramental manner he intended and which he wants them to experience. These communions are not just “a sham” but can be genuine spiritual encounters with Christ.

Upon entering Catholic life, one does not need to look back upon one’s former communions as simply empty shams; one can view them as spiritual encounters with Christ, encounters which gave one the grace to approach Christ even more closely, finally coming to receive the fullness of the Eucharist he wanted you to have."

catholic.com/quickquestions/how-valid-is-the-consecration-of-the-bread-and-wine-in-a-lutheran-or-episcopal-holy-e

God love you,

Travis

 

[JonNC]

Sorry, reading my post over again, I didn’t articulate what I thought I wanted to. Lutherans do indeed believe they are taking Jesus’ body, and spiritually they do, even though it is not in the sacramental form. I was confusing the “spiritual” v. the “sacramental”. . . To clarify, and because my arm is burning from a recent surgery, I’ll past a response from Catholic Answers and the link:

"For the consecration of the elements to take place, it must be performed by a ministerial priest, whose role is different from that of the universal priesthood all believers. Since the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the other ancient Christian churches have preserved the ministerial priesthood through the apostolic succession of bishops, their Eucharist is valid.

Unfortunately, the ministerial priesthood has not been retained in Protestant churches. Most Protestant churches (all but the Anglican/Episcopalian tradition) have rejected the existence of a ministerial priesthood distinct from the universal priesthood and thus ceased to perpetuate it, breaking the apostolic succession in their circles.

It is equally unfortunate that, while many Anglicans/Episcopalians profess belief in a ministerial priesthood, the apostolic succession was ruptured in their circles, and their priesthood is no longer valid. After Henry VIII broke away from the Church, his successor, Edward VI, introduced a drastically altered and invalid version of the rite of ordination, with the result that the apostolic succession (which had previously been present in the Anglican Church) ceased, and its ministerial priesthood stopped.

This does not mean that Protestants such as Lutherans and Anglicans do not experience a real encounter with Jesus in the Eucharist. They can receive Jesus spiritually in communion, they just do not receive him in the full, sacramental manner he intended and which he wants them to experience. These communions are not just “a sham” but can be genuine spiritual encounters with Christ.

Upon entering Catholic life, one does not need to look back upon one’s former communions as simply empty shams; one can view them as spiritual encounters with Christ, encounters which gave one the grace to approach Christ even more closely, finally coming to receive the fullness of the Eucharist he wanted you to have."

catholic.com/quickquestions/how-valid-is-the-consecration-of-the-bread-and-wine-in-a-lutheran-or-episcopal-holy-e

God love you,

Travis

Hi Travis,
Even this we disagree with, as you might have guessed.

May God speed your recovery after surgery.

Jon

 

[TravisDover]

And His love also with you.

Very few here, Travis, certainly not hn or me, are unaware of the Catholic Church’s teaching on this matter, and you do well to believe and state it, as you are Catholic. Of course, even the CC teaches that others not in communion with the Bishop of Rome have it.

And while this is probably not the thread for it, suffice it to say that with great and due respect, we disagree. We do not deny the real presence of the precious body and blood of Christ are present in the Catholic Eucharist, we also know His presence, true and substantial, in ours.

And even if it were so, though it is not, that His presence is something less than His true and real body and blood in our Eucharist, one Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger once said of:

Salvation-granting. Indeed!

Jon

Amen, and a very good quote. This kind of goes into why, and if catechized correctly, Catholics aught to know and believe that people of other faiths do not have less of faith, love, or grace, even as we Catholics believe we have the fullness of the faith as it was given originally. I always discuss with my peers the culpability factor. We all will be judge according to what we did with how much we are given. A Lutheran receiving spiritual food is in as much relationship with Christ as the Catholic receiving the sacrament of the most holy altar. An agnostic who does good works and loves his neighbor, though never knowing God, will be shown mercy and may even have a better seat at the show than many of the faithful. Thank you for bringing me closer to an understanding of your faith.

 

[TravisDover]

Hi Travis,
Even this we disagree with, as you might have guessed.

May God speed your recovery after surgery.

Jon

I did guess, but that is why we are of different Churches and faiths. Thank you.

 

[Kristin234]

I’m sorry, I have to correct you. Lutherans do not have the sacrament of the Eucharist; only the Catholic Church does.

The Catholic Church does not believe that the Lutheran Church has the sacrament of the Eucharist but the Lutheran Church does believe that.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Lutheran Church believes the Catholic Church’s sacrament of the Eucharist is valid.

I grew up in the ACOE and the ACOE does not believe that the Catholic Church has the valid sacrament of the Eucharist.

But the Catholic Church believes the ACOE’s sacrament of the Eucharist is valid.

You see, just because you believe your church is the only one that does does not mean other churches see it that way.

 

[TravisDover]

The Catholic Church does not believe that the Lutheran Church has the sacrament of the Eucharist but the Lutheran Church does believe that.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Lutheran Church believes the Catholic Church’s sacrament of the Eucharist is valid.

I grew up in the ACOE and the ACOE does not believe that the Catholic Church has the valid sacrament of the Eucharist.

But the Catholic Church believes the ACOE’s sacrament of the Eucharist is valid.

You see, just because you believe your church is the only one that does does not mean other churches see it that way.

I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but just because a church says it has a valid sacrament does not make it valid. The only church that would have valid sacraments would be the church that is in communion with the original church, Christ’s Church. Since the Catholic Church is the only church that agree’s with the church Jesus established, that would mean the Catholic Church has valid sacraments. Churches that have split off the church that agrees with what Jesus had established is not in communion with Jesus’ church, therefore does not have valid sacraments except for baptism and I believe matrimony since these two sacraments are with Jesus and not any one Church since they do not require a priest.

 

[Kristin234]

I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but just because a church says it has a valid sacrament does not make it valid. The only church that would have valid sacraments would be the church that is in communion with the original church, Christ’s Church. Since the Catholic Church is the only church that agree’s with the church Jesus established, that would mean the Catholic Church has valid sacraments. Churches that have split off the church that agrees with what Jesus had established is not in communion with Jesus’ church, therefore does not have valid sacraments except for baptism and I believe matrimony since these two sacraments are with Jesus and not any one Church since they do not require a priest.

The Catholic Church says that the Assyrian Church of the East, the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church and some others are seen by the Catholic Church to have valid sacraments because they have a valid priesthood because they have apostolic succession.

I was pointing out your quote where you said you wanted to correct the poster that the Lutheran Church doesn’t have a valid sacrament.

Just because you don’t see it as valid does not mean that according to their church it isn’t valid. I was pointing out the ACOE as an example because the Catholic Church says that the ACOE has valid sacraments and a valid priesthood but the ACOE does not believe that the Catholic Church does. Of course, the Catholic Church does believe it has a valid sacrament.

It is an argument that will go back and forth. A church will say they have a valid sacrament and the others don’t and vice versa.

 

[andrewstx]

I’m sorry, I have to correct you. Lutherans do not have the sacrament of the Eucharist; only the Catholic Church does. Lutherans have “remembrance” of Jesus but do not believe the bread to be real body and the wine to be real blood of Jesus. Like all other Protestant Churches, Lutherans do not believe Jesus when he was speaking literally about how one must eat his flesh and drink his blood for eternal life. If you will remember from John, the masses abandoned Jesus when he said these things because the teaching was too hard for them. He had to then ask his disciples if they too were going to leave him, when Peter stood up and said likened to, “Lord, where would we go?” It was a very hard teaching for even people in Jesus’ day. This was also the first time we read Judas betrays Jesus. The second time he does is also at “the Lord’s Supper”.

Furthermore, nobody outside of the Catholic Church have apostolic tradition of sacred orders. They are not ordained into the priesthood handed down generation after generation of bishops and priests from the time of Peter as the first pope. The Eucharist is the body of Christ, which can only be found in Jesus’ church, the Catholic Church.

Catholics enter into the sacrifice that happened almost 2000 years ago and partake in the sacred supper. Lutherans and Protestants have more of a ritualistic rememberance.

Also, no other church but the Catholic Church can grant absolution for sins. It is because Jesus entrusted his apostles to “forgive sins” and those apostles since have handed down the tradition of absolution throughout the Church. Anyone not in communion with the Church as a priest, deacon, or bishop cannot “bind or loose”.

Just clearing things up. A great resource for you is newadvent.org, and click on the upper-right corner’s “Encyclopedia” and look up “sacraments”, “eucharist”, “absolution”. God love you.

-Travis

You deign to tell Lutherans just what they beleive, how do you know? If you were to read just Luther’s small catechism you would find out that Luterans do beleive the Holy Eucharist is the true body and blood, they accept confession as the “power of the keys”.

No I am not a Lutheran and have never been, but it is not good to tell others what they beleive when you don’t know.

You could try a bit of fairness.

 

[TravisDover]

You deign to tell Lutherans just what they beleive, how do you know? If you were to read just Luther’s small catechism you would find out that Luterans do beleive the Holy Eucharist is the true body and blood, they accept confession as the “power of the keys”.

No I am not a Lutheran and have never been, but it is not good to tell others what they beleive when you don’t know.

You could try a bit of fairness.

In all “fairness” andrewstx, I did thank an earlier forum patron for giving me more of an insight into what Lutherans believe. My ego is big enough to allow some humility to spill over once and a while . I’m happy for Lutherans that they have a true devotion and belief in their eucharist.

Nevertheless, I do not retract what I said about apostolic succession and the authority given to the apostles and today’s bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church through the historical succession handed down by Jesus. That being said, if a Lutheran is approaching his eucharist with the whole intention to be united bodily and spiritually with our Blessed Lord, the intention, will, love, and knowledge are all taken into consideration. Even as I, a Catholic, believing only the Catholic Church has the true sacramental Eucharist, understand it does not somehow make me more of a Christian than those who I believe do not receive the real sacrament. Our God will judge His worshippers according to their knowledge, love, and will.

Thanks for your fire and your zeal. I am certain we aren’t going to agree on everything. Where would the fun in that be?

God love you!

Travis

 

[andrewstx]

In all “fairness” andrewstx, I did thank an earlier forum patron for giving me more of an insight into what Lutherans believe. My ego is big enough to allow some humility to spill over once and a while . I’m happy for Lutherans that they have a true devotion and belief in their eucharist.

Nevertheless, I do not retract what I said about apostolic succession and the authority given to the apostles and today’s bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church through the historical succession handed down by Jesus. That being said, if a Lutheran is approaching his eucharist with the whole intention to be united bodily and spiritually with our Blessed Lord, the intention, will, love, and knowledge are all taken into consideration. Even as I, a Catholic, believing only the Catholic Church has the true sacramental Eucharist, understand it does not somehow make me more of a Christian than those who I believe do not receive the real sacrament. Our God will judge His worshippers according to their knowledge, love, and will.

Thanks for your fire and your zeal. I am certain we aren’t going to agree on everything. Where would the fun in that be?

God love you!

Travis

I agree with you on apostolic succesion. Lutherans afaik don’t claim it, and afaik as well most Lutherans have no bishops. The few that do are in Sweden.

 

[hn160]

In all “fairness” andrewstx, I did thank an earlier forum patron for giving me more of an insight into what Lutherans believe. My ego is big enough to allow some humility to spill over once and a while . I’m happy for Lutherans that they have a true devotion and belief in their eucharist.

Nevertheless, I do not retract what I said about apostolic succession and the authority given to the apostles and today’s bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church through the historical succession handed down by Jesus. That being said, if a Lutheran is approaching his eucharist with the whole intention to be united bodily and spiritually with our Blessed Lord, the intention, will, love, and knowledge are all taken into consideration. Even as I, a Catholic, believing only the Catholic Church has the true sacramental Eucharist, understand it does not somehow make me more of a Christian than those who I believe do not receive the real sacrament. Our God will judge His worshippers according to their knowledge, love, and will.

Thanks for your fire and your zeal. I am certain we aren’t going to agree on everything. Where would the fun in that be?

God love you!

Travis

This is what Article X of the Augsburg Confession states on the Holy Supper:
54 Article X has been approved, in which we confess the following: We believe that in the Lord’s Supper Christ’s body and blood are truly and substantially present and are truly administered with those things that are seen (bread and wine) to those who receive the Sacrament. We constantly defend this belief, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. Since Paul says, “The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16), it would follow that if the Lord’s body were not truly present, the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of Christ’s spirit. 55 We have determined that not only the Roman Church affirms Christ’s bodily presence. The Greek Church also now believes, and formerly believed, the same. Their canon of the Mass testifies to this. In the canon the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become Christ’s very body. Vulgarius, who does not seem to be an unimportant writer to us, says clearly that “bread is not a mere figure, but is truly changed into flesh.” 56 There is a long commentary by Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is bodily offered to us in the Supper. For he says:
Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no way of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. We say this idea is completely foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving life for ourselves from this? Hear Paul saying, “For you are all one in Christ Jesus; so we, though many, are one body in Christ; for we all partake of the one bread” (Galatians 3:28; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10:17). Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Therefore, we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, but also by natural participation.
57 We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here about this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article. But we cite them so that all who read them may more clearly discern that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church. In the Lord’s Supper, Christ’s body and blood are truly and actually present. They are truly administered with those things that are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ, for we know that “death no longer has dominion over Him” (Romans 6:9).