Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[VociMike]

1. It seems to undercut the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice since it implies that some satisfaction for sin beyond that of the cross remains to be made.

Then why don’t Protestants reject the concept of confession (to God) and repentence? Doesn’t confession and repentence also “imply satisfaction for sin” beyond that of the cross?

If Protestants don’t believe that they are perfect here on earth, and if they do believe they will be perfect in heaven, then they believe in Purgatory. I’ve actually seen Protestants argue themselves into the corner where they end up having to maintain that they are, in fact, perfect here and now (even though they continue to sin). Just to reject the concept of a perfection and purification at death.

 

[jonfan]

Here is some “logical” information for those who think Purgatory was made up by Catholics. Oral Tradition plays a strong part.

Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. The godly, meanwhile, await Judgment Day in the bosom of Abraham. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as “hell”, but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months, but those who commit certain sins are punished forever.[1]

It is often mentioned in the New Testament of the Christian Bible as the place of condemnation of unrepentant sinners in, for example, the Sermon on the Mount.

In the Book of Matthew, 23:33, Jesus observes,

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”
Jesus used the word gehenna, not hell, and his audience understood gehenna was an allegorical phrase likening the fate of the “generation of vipers” to that of garbage; the Revised Standard Bible has a footnote after the word hell reading:

w Greek Gehenna
We note, the King James Bible (and other translations as well) speak of “hellfire” and of being “cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." The original Greek scriptures of the New Testament actually used the word gehenna, which tended to become hell in English translation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

God bless,
Jonfan

 

[flameburns623]

Then why don’t Protestants reject the concept of confession (to God) and repentence? Doesn’t confession and repentence also “imply satisfaction for sin” beyond that of the cross?

Repentance–true, Godly sorrow for sin–is not a work of human beings but is a work of God in the human heart leading to God-given saving faith. Remember: salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man. Salvation is ALL of Christ and His work, and none of our own.

If Protestants don’t believe that they are perfect here on earth, and if they do believe they will be perfect in heaven, then they believe in Purgatory. I’ve actually seen Protestants argue themselves into the corner where they end up having to maintain that they are, in fact, perfect here and now (even though they continue to sin). Just to reject the concept of a perfection and purification at death.

In Heaven we will have the fulness of the perfection of Christ, minus our sin-nature. You are still thinking that in Heaven you will somehow be clothed in the filthy rags of your own self-righteousness. You are missing the point. Ontologically speaking, the life and work of Mother Theresa and John Paul II is morally equivalent before God with the lives and work of Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Josef Stalin. From a merely human perspective, of course a Mother Theresa or a JPII is better than a Hitler or a Stalin. But before the throne of the Infinite Perfection of God, all of the good that the former two accomplished is every whit as worthless and revolting as the foul and wicked deeds of the latter. Only if John Paul II and Mother Theresa were among the Elect of God–and I pray and trust to God that they were–only if they were redeemed by His Son and clothed with Christ’s righteousness, will they be admitted to the Kingdoms of His everlasting Glory.

 

[Sixtus]

Repentance–true, Godly sorrow for sin–is not a work of human beings but is a work of God in the human heart leading to God-given saving faith. Remember: salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man. Salvation is ALL of Christ and His work, and none of our own.

Of saving grace. That expresses the Catholic position nicely.

Hence Flameburn’s arguement above about the theological dispute between the Dominican’s and the Jesuits to which you so eloquentely referred in all but name. Luther [an Augustinian friar] was wrong to believe that his heresy was supported by St Augustine.

Salvation is not a place it is a process. It is the efficacy of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to atone for our sins. It is because Christ’s sacrifice was all embracing that the process of Purgatory is possible. Were it not so, if Christ’s atonement for sin was not ‘all God and none man’, then Purgatory would not be possible.

Plameburn,. I am impressed by your knowledge of Catholic theology:thumbsup:

 

[Sixtus]

Gottle of Geer

I hear what you say. You put it very nicely. That really answers my question.

Additionally, it has made me realise that which I had not taken into account before, that Protestantism must be seen not so much as a ‘Reformation’ but as a realisation borne in an historical context. That context being the emergence of the ‘Individual’ as distinct from the individual as part of a social group.

The Catholic Church to quite a large extent, has been boyant in its ability to resist Individualism. The individual derives meaning from the community in a social context. They are part of a society, which in turn is part of humanity. To a large degree, Catholicism is still the vestage of the social. Hence the feeling that one is ‘at one’ with the Catholic Community, which in turn is at one with the rest of the Universal Church which in turn is at one with the Church ‘at rest’.

This ‘sense of the social’- borne in the historical roots of 2000-years, where Protestantism has a much more recent founding in an age where ‘the social’ is of lesser significance, the community replaced by the insularity of the individualism

Thank you Gottle of Geer. Much food for thought:thumbsup:

 

[VociMike]

Repentance–true, Godly sorrow for sin–is not a work of human beings but is a work of God in the human heart leading to God-given saving faith. Remember: salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man. Salvation is ALL of Christ and His work, and none of our own.

Purgatory – that is, the final perfection and purification before we enter heaven – is also not a work of humans but of God. Did you imagine that the Catholic Church teaches otherwise?

In Heaven we will have the fulness of the perfection of Christ, minus our sin-nature. You are still thinking that in Heaven you will somehow be clothed in the filthy rags of your own self-righteousness. You are missing the point.

Since your assertion is the farthest possible thing from what I actually think, I have to say that it is you who are missing the point here.

Ontologically speaking, the life and work of Mother Theresa and John Paul II is morally equivalent before God with the lives and work of Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Josef Stalin. From a merely human perspective, of course a Mother Theresa or a JPII is better than a Hitler or a Stalin. But before the throne of the Infinite Perfection of God, all of the good that the former two accomplished is every whit as worthless and revolting as the foul and wicked deeds of the latter. Only if John Paul II and Mother Theresa were among the Elect of God–and I pray and trust to God that they were–only if they were redeemed by His Son and clothed with Christ’s righteousness, will they be admitted to the Kingdoms of His everlasting Glory.

Then Mao and Hitler and Stalin will be in heaven, and our free will is a farce and a deception. Any moral equation that says Mother Teresa and Stalin are equivalent is a moral equation whispered in the ear by Satan. To say that God commands us to do that which is worthless and revolting, is the most perverse form of false Christianity imaginable.

 

[ribozyme]

Well, how do you reconcile that verse I pointed out with so-called purgatory.

 

[VociMike]

Well, how do you reconcile that verse I pointed out with so-called purgatory.

Not sure who this is directed at, but purgatory (so-called?) is not about salvation. It is about perfection. It is about having the last vestiges of sinful desire removed before entering heaven.

 

[SORROWS]

[Flameburns623 Writes:

[COLOR=“Black”]Ontologically speaking, the life and work of Mother Theresa and John Paul II is morally equivalent before God with the lives and work of Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Josef Stalin. From a merely human perspective, of course a Mother Theresa or a JPII is better than a Hitler or a Stalin. But before the throne of the Infinite Perfection of God, all of the good that the former two accomplished is every whit as worthless and revolting as the foul and wicked deeds of the latter. Only if John Paul II and Mother Theresa were among the Elect of God–and I pray and trust to God that they were–only if they were redeemed by His Son and clothed with Christ’s righteousness, will they be admitted to the Kingdoms of His everlasting Glory.

What?

Do you really believe this?

 

[flameburns623]

Purgatory – that is, the final perfection and purification before we enter heaven – is also not a work of humans but of God. Did you imagine that the Catholic Church teaches otherwise?

The RCC teaches that purgatory is a place where humans gain merit for themselves through suffering. The Christian faith teaches that humans have no merit in themselves and cannot acquire any, by suffering or through any other means.

Then Mao and Hitler and Stalin will be in heaven, and our free will is a farce and a deception. Any moral equation that says Mother Teresa and Stalin are equivalent is a moral equation whispered in the ear by Satan. To say that God commands us to do that which is worthless and revolting, is the most perverse form of false Christianity imaginable.

The evidence on the face of it is that JPII and Mother Teresa are in Heaven and Mao, Hitler, and Stalin are not. We can hope otherwise on their behalf, we can trust in both the everlasting mercy and absolute justice of our God so that the latter three souls are in exactly the place God will them to be. But the external evidence of the lives of those three men is that they were not of the People of God and have no place in Christ.

The wicked deeds of Hitler, Stalin, or Mao are not ‘morally equivalent’ to the best that JPII or Mother Teresa did, at least not in the human realm. But in the eyes of God, none of the five persons named is any better than any of the others: “there is NONE righteous, not even one”.

To live absolutely perfect lives would not be worthless nor revolting, but humans are incapable of doing even one thing in a way that pleases God. Thus “ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags”. All of it, without exception, in the case of every person who has ever lived or will ever live, with the sole notable exception of Jesus Christ the God-Man, in whom Christians find their only and greatest Hope.

You don’t have free will. No one since the fall of Adam ever has had nor ever will in this life. God never told you that you did have such a thing, hence no farce nor sham was perpetuated on you by Him. You learned that (indirectly) from pagan philosophers. Feel free to decry to them about the farce and sham they have perpetuated upon you, Remember however that nothing you have, do, or think is outside of the will of a good, perfect, and just God who “knows the plan He has for you” and Who “maketh all things work together for good”.

Sixtus:

Salvation is not a place it is a process.

Salvation is a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Plameburn,. I am impressed by your knowledge of Catholic theology:thumbsup:

Thanks: you likewise have a pretty fair grasp of the issues at stake in Protestant soteriology.

By the way folks: I’ll remind everyone again that we probably aren’t going to resolve the issues dividing Protestants from Roman Catholics with regards to salvation. That really isn’t the point of this thread. Protestants were asked why we don’t accept Purgatory. I am not somehow attacking Catholicism when I lay out the basic reasons why Protestants don’t accept that idea. I concede that I am a tad forceful in expressing myself on this issue, but I am really just providing analysis of the classic Protestant position. Please do not take anything I have said as a personal affront.

 

[flameburns623]

[Flameburns623 Writes:

Ontologically speaking, the life and work of Mother Theresa and John Paul II is morally equivalent before God with the lives and work of Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Josef Stalin. From a merely human perspective, of course a Mother Theresa or a JPII is better than a Hitler or a Stalin. But before the throne of the Infinite Perfection of God, all of the good that the former two accomplished is every whit as worthless and revolting as the foul and wicked deeds of the latter. Only if John Paul II and Mother Theresa were among the Elect of God–and I pray and trust to God that they were–only if they were redeemed by His Son and clothed with Christ’s righteousness, will they be admitted to the Kingdoms of His everlasting Glory.

What?

Do you really believe this?

I am so persuaded and constrained by the Holy Scriptures and by the Spirit Who inspired them.

 

[VociMike]

Purgatory has nothing to do with gaining merit. Those in purgatory are saved! What can they possibly merit above and beyond that? Purgatory is not about merit, it is about final and ultimate perfection, holiness, by the actions of God.

 

[flameburns623]

Purgatory has nothing to do with gaining merit. Those in purgatory are saved! What can they possibly merit above and beyond that? Purgatory is not about merit, it is about final and ultimate perfection, holiness, by the actions of God.

If they are saved they are in Christ. If they are in Christ they have the righteousness, holiness, and perfection of Christ. From what does Christ then need to be purged?

 

[dch1983]

By the way folks: I’ll remind everyone again that we probably aren’t going to resolve the issues dividing Protestants from Roman Catholics with regards to salvation. That really isn’t the point of this thread. Protestants were asked why we don’t accept Purgatory. I am not somehow attacking Catholicism when I lay out the basic reasons why Protestants don’t accept that idea. I concede that I am a tad forceful in expressing myself on this issue, but I am really just providing analysis of the classic Protestant position. Please do not take anything I have said as a personal affront.

This was nice to see. As an onlooker following the postings in this thread, it often feels like the discussion gets sarcastic, hostile, and unpleasant.

 

[VociMike]

If they are saved they are in Christ. If they are in Christ they have the righteousness, holiness, and perfection of Christ. From what does Christ then need to be purged?

Do you believe that you are completely perfect, completely pure, completely holy at this very moment, and at every moment of your life (for you never know when you will die)?

 

[flameburns623]

Do you believe that you are completely perfect, completely pure, completely holy at this very moment, and at every moment of your life (for you never know when you will die)?

No.

But I am not trusting in my own merits.

I am trusting in the merits of Jesus Christ.

 

[VociMike]

No.

But I am not trusting in my own merits.

I am trusting in the merits of Jesus Christ.

As do all those in purgatory. No Catholic ever “trusts in his own merits” (which is just another way of saying “can lawfully obligate God”) for his salvation.

 

[flameburns623]

As do all those in purgatory. No Catholic ever “trusts in his own merits” (which is just another way of saying “can lawfully obligate God”) for his salvation.

But Christ has already paid the penalty for sin, and no further penalty for sin need be paid if ‘those in Purgatory’ are in Christ and therefore covered by His righteousness. Is Christ being daily made to suffer again for the sins for which He once died to atone for?

 

[flameburns623]

Mike: what we are crashing headlong into is the concrete application of one of the Five Solas of the Reformation–Solo Christo, “by Christ Alone”. Over-and-over the Reformers insisted that justification is ‘forensic’. See the following link to help understand how Reformational understanding of justification differs substantially from Catholic understanding of the same. Otherwise I fear we will ride this merry-go-round ad infinitum. :

apuritansmind.com/Justification/HodgeCharlesJustificationForensic.htm

Hope this furthers the conversation.

 

[AlegreFe]

I think PART of the reason why they don’t accept it is because they are afraid. Just the same way that poor Martin Luther was afraid. He had a troubled childhood and was very afraid of his parents and afraid of the idea of purgatory. He suffered from depression and had anxiety problems. He faced, or almost faced, death several times in his life before his infamous 95 Theses nailed to the door of the church. He took it out on all the Catholics. I see him as a “Judas.” I really hope he repented and was forgiven for what he did.

But purgatory is NOT hell. So there is nothing to fear. As a matter of fact, you can live your “purgatory” here on earth as you live right now. As we suffer, and we all do, we can offer up our sufferings and unite them to Christ’s sufferings so that our suffering and sacrifices can be redemptive. That is part of our “priesthood” here on earth, to offer up sacrifices.

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body,
which is the church Col 1:24

Now there are passages before and after this next one that talks about following God’s commandments. If this isn’t purgatory then I don’t know what is:
25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny. Mat 5:25-26​

58 If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make
an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent
will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the
constable, and the constable throw you into prison.
59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the
last penny." Luke 12:58-59

Yes I do believe that Jesus bought us and paid fully so that we can go to heaven. But nothing unclean can enter into heaven. I know I’m not clean on the inside. But I do try to live a good life and I try my best with God’s Grace to be loving to my neighbor. I don’t see what is hard for a protestant to see that Faith all by itself is NOT going to get you into heaven.

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.”
Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will
demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons
believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works
is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered
his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith
was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed
God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was
called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified
by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out
by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith
without works is dead. Jas 2:17-26