Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[apophasis]

The Catholic understanding of any and all suffering on the part of men, to the extent that it has any redemptive value, is that it can only have that saving quality because of Christ’s sacrifice.

And this is where Catholicism has departed from a Biblicial faith and God allowed the Reformation to take hold, else we would have lost the pure gospel message of the cross of Christ forever. Man can do no works (including suffering) for his own salvation, his own redemption.

“Apart from the Cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven” (618) is the background for everything relating to salvation, including our participation.

A totally contradictory statement.

“Christ’s sacrifice is the source of eternal salvation” (617). “The possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the Paschal mystery, is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to ‘take up [their] cross and follow [him].’”

Taking up one’s cross has nothing to do with saving one’s self. It’s discipleship" Deny yourself, take up your cross and FOLLOW ME. The taking up one’s cross is the denying of one’s self.

And, as has been stated, we believe such suffering helps effect our salvation, as Paul says below.

And such a belief is totally nonbiblical.

That such Grace *can *come via our suffering, well…

“in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church.” (2Cor12:9)

Paul would be the last one to say we are saved in any way by his afflictions, or our own. He was afflicted because of the ministry for which he was called, which was the “word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:19), but those afflictions that came with it had nothing to do with adding to Christ’s work on the cross in saving men by grace through faith in Him alone.

and “our light and momentary afflictions are obtaining for us a far greater and eternal glory.” 2Cor4:17

He’s merely comparing the suffering he had to endure here while fulfilling his ministry, as being nothing, compared to the glory he (and all true believers) will experience in glory. Which is actually a statement of assurance of one’s salvation.

I’ve been a Catholic for quite a long time; I can assure you that I have never and will never hear from the Magesterium that the Church’s teaching on Purgatory–that wording in the Catechism–is meant to be understood as us gaining our salvation outside the saving blood of Christ.

Yet the whole idea that one must suffer, himself, for so-called temporal punishments in order to be made ready for heaven’s entrance does certainly teach such a notion. Oh, you can deny it, but that’s how contradictory Catholic teaching is on the whole issue of salvation.

And that’s why no Catholic has any assurance of it. His whole hope of salvation is probationary and controlled by the church, not only in this life but the the one after in Purgatory as well. After all, it’s the church (its hierarchy) that controls the so-called treasury of “merits” that can lessen or even avoid one’s stint there.

All this is totally unbiblical and totally contrary to the gospel of the cross of Christ.

 

[Winchester]

Not all non-Roman Catholics (not the careful avoidance of the term, Protestants) object to the concept / doctrine of Purgatory. A great many Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, (those in the "ultra high-church " party both in and outside the Episcopal Church) and a great many Evangelical Catholic Lutherans (the Lutheran equivalent of the theologically conservative Anglo-Catholics) accept Purgatory as it is taught in the conservative wing of the Roman Catholic Church.

But then both groups have a rather low opinion of the Reformation, considering it to have been an unnecessary catastrophe, and the resulting division of the Western Church a scandal and a tragedy of epic proportions, not a triumph nor even a good thing in any way.

 

[MariaG]

Not all non-Roman Catholics (not the careful avoidance of the term, Protestants) object to the concept / doctrine of Purgatory. A great many Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, (those in the "ultra high-church " party both in and outside the Episcopal Church) and a great many Evangelical Catholic Lutherans (the Lutheran equivalent of the theologically conservative Anglo-Catholics) accept Purgatory as it is taught in the conservative wing of the Roman Catholic Church.

But then both groups have a rather low opinion of the Reformation, considering it to have been an unnecessary catastrophe, and the resulting division of the Western Church a scandal and a tragedy of epic proportions, not a triumph nor even a good thing in any way.

Funny thing is that the “concept” of purgatory is not objectionable to most non-Catholics, they just object to the fact that purgatory is a Catholic word and are still stuck in the reformation “protesting” all that is Catholic.

It has been said on this thread that we have tried to make purgatory more “protestant” to make it more acceptable. So it is not the concept of being washed clean and purified by the blood of Christ that people protest. They protest that the blood of Christ has anything to do with the teaching of purgatory because it is not worded exactly how they like.

But that is okay. I can only testify to the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church. All are free to reject that truth, and think me ignorant and unable to understand the “true” teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[john_ennis]

And this is where Catholicism has departed from a Biblicial faith and God allowed the Reformation to take hold, else we would have lost the pure gospel message of the cross of Christ forever. Man can do no works (including suffering) for his own salvation, his own redemption.A totally contradictory statement.Taking up one’s cross has nothing to do with saving one’s self. It’s discipleship" Deny yourself, take up your cross and FOLLOW ME. The taking up one’s cross is the denying of one’s self.And such a belief is totally nonbiblical.Paul would be the last one to say we are saved in any way by his afflictions, or our own. He was afflicted because of the ministry for which he was called, which was the “word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:19), but those afflictions that came with it had nothing to do with adding to Christ’s work on the cross in saving men by grace through faith in Him alone.He’s merely comparing the suffering he had to endure here while fulfilling his ministry, as being nothing, compared to the glory he (and all true believers) will experience in glory. Which is actually a statement of assurance of one’s salvation.Yet the whole idea that one must suffer, himself, for so-called temporal punishments in order to be made ready for heaven’s entrance does certainly teach such a notion. Oh, you can deny it, but that’s how contradictory Catholic teaching is on the whole issue of salvation.

And that’s why no Catholic has any assurance of it. His whole hope of salvation is probationary and controlled by the church, not only in this life but the the one after in Purgatory as well. After all, it’s the church (its hierarchy) that controls the so-called treasury of “merits” that can lessen or even avoid one’s stint there.

All this is totally unbiblical and totally contrary to the gospel of the cross of Christ.

I can only say that, yes, I know what you believe, but the fact that when Paul says his hardships are attaining greater glory for him, you say he doesn’t mean his suffering is related to his salvation, doesn’t change his words and their plain meaning.

Your opinion that Christ’s choice of the word “cross” for our trials has nothing to do with our salvation, is something you state but don’t support. How could CROSS, uttered by Jesus, not imply salvation?

Lastly, all of us in this thread agree that Christ is the source of all saving Grace.

You say it’s impossible to believe that, and still believe Christ allows us to participate in our own salvation.

I assure you it’s possible to believe that, because I do. Try at least to see that, even if you think it’s insane.

Peace.
John

 

[john_ennis]

eetings in the Lord!

Wow!!! what a debate

…We can most assuredly disagree without offending anyone. There is a way to do it all according to His word…Love… God Bless each of you…

Deborah

Thank you Deborah, for reminding us of that.

To me it matters that God makes our suffering meaningful. It is so different, when you know that we and others can participate in Christ’s sacrifice. It shows his tremedous love for us.

Whether I suffer for him in this world or when I leave it, I hope I always receive it with joy, as the apostles did.

Peace.
John

 

[Pryority7]

As it’s a different place from heaven, it’s not the beginning. One could just as easily (using your criteria), argue ‘death’ itself is the beginning of heaven.

Again this rude and dismissive posturing. You’re not the first Catholic on this thread to sail close to the wind.

There’s so much appeal to emotion. Here there’s an attempt to make a dichotomy between ‘we’ who understand and ‘he’ who doesn’t. It’s an appeal to others to be part of the team less they too be ridiculed. In school we call that bullying. You draw a distinction between one group and another and invite others to join you in keeping this distinction.

Nobody said that Purgatory was a PLACE. We don’t know that. The Church doesn’t know that. According to what we know about it, it’s a process the soul goes through at the time of death.

Oh, and I meant to say to Apo…"Of course you don’t know what I’M talking about. That was a mistake, but I just had my intelligence insulted when Apo claimed that…I made the distinction clearly in my post what verse he left out…

P7

 

[Damascus]

I have enjoyed this thread and learned many things in observing the viewpoints expressed here. I got the feeling I was actually in a Purgatory of sorts just watching this thread unfold LOL!

Surprisingly, I have not found one good reason to abandon the teaching of Purgatory. I see no valid points being made against it. So, I will exit now. There has certainly been enough posting opportunities to illustrate valid reasons to reject it, so I dont see the point in hanging around.

Thanks for having me!

 

[apophasis]

john ennis:

I can only say that, yes, I know what you believe, but the fact that when Paul says his hardships are attaining greater glory for him, you say he doesn’t mean his suffering is related to his salvation, doesn’t change his words and their plain meaning.

I agree that Paul’s suffering due to his ministry of taking the “word of reconciliation” both to Jews and Gentiles is related to his salvation, but not in any way FOR his salvation. You interpret Paul totally out of context for just a few verses earlier he writes:"For we do not preach ourselves (i.e., merit in his own sufferings) but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake"Your claiming that Paul taught that his own sufferings, for the sake of the gospel, added to or participated in the procuring of his own salvation is like JWs insisting that John, an orthodox Jew, was teaching Jesus to be another god in John 1:1. Such teachings are totally out of context and* character* of both John, a monotheistic Jew, and Paul who consistently taught salvation/redemption by grace through faith in Christ’s sacrificial work alone - totally apart from any works of man. That’s why you’ll never find the concept of Purgatory in Paul’s writings (or any N.T. writers, for that matter).

Your opinion that Christ’s choice of the word “cross” for our trials has nothing to do with our salvation, is something you state but don’t support. How could CROSS, uttered by Jesus, not imply salvation?

Because it was not in the context of HIS cross, the only cross through which divine salvation could be wrought.Matt 16:24 "Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.Here the word cross is not used literally but figuratively. Discipleship requires sacrifice - the sacrifice of one’s own fleshly desires and the willingness to follow after Christ (discipleship). But this begins only AFTER one has accepted the truth concerning Christ’s literal, expiatory/propitiatory sacrifice for the forgiveness and putting away of sins once for all time (Heb. 9:26b, 28; 10:10, 14, 18).

Paul summed it up beautifully:Gal. 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh (i.e., this body) I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."When it comes to salvation Paul ALWAYS refers to the cross of Christ, for no other “cross” can save sinners. In his writings he reveals the divine mystery that every true believer has been crucified with Christ and raised to new life “in Him” (see Rom. 6:6; Col. 3:3; Eph. 2:4-7). It is the believer’s new position in the “last Adam,” the resurrected Christ. A divinely revealed truth, when understood, that completely blows away the antibiblical notion of Purgatory.

Lastly, all of us in this thread agree that Christ is the source of all saving Grace.

That’s the difference between a Catholic faith and a Biblical faith. Catholics say "the source of all saving “grace” (more accurately, “graces”). But Scripture reveals Him to be the source of eternal salvation itself (Jn. 3:14-18; 2 Cor. 5:21), through faith.

You say it’s impossible to believe that, and still believe Christ allows us to participate in our own salvation. I assure you it’s possible to believe that, because I do. Try at least to see that, even if you think it’s insane.

I never said it’s impossible for you to believe what you do, but that you’ll never find your belief supported in God’s written Word. You must believe it based solely on the word that comes out of Rome. MariaG claims that we object the doctrine of Purgatory (and all those doctrines related to it) simply because we’re “protesting all that is Catholic.” Not true. There are many things “Catholic” on which we fully agree - those which conform to Biblical revelation. Purgatory, of course, not one of them. However, you accept the “doctrines” of Purgatory BECAUSE you’re Catholic. As a Catholic you can do no other.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Why not just go with the OSAS crowd and say that we don’t have to do anything because God has already forgiven us?

A total distortion, of course. The FACT that God has already forgiven us through faith in the sacrificial work of the Incarnate Son is the purist and greatest motivation for one’s desire to serve Him.

As Paul beautifully expresses it:Rom 12:1-2 “Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”

Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,"

We don’t serve Him in order to GET something, but because He HAS GIVEN us everything, His all, through the once for all sacrifice of His own Son. Our service is out of pure gratitude, not greed. We agree with Paul where he reasons:Rom 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”

 

[MariaG]

I never said it’s impossible for you to believe what you do, but that you’ll never find your belief supported in God’s written Word.

Not true. Funny, scripture keeps being presented, you keep telling us we interpret it wrong. But we will never find it in scripture.

No, apparently you will never agree that we find it in scripture but in reality, you disagree with our interpretation of Scripture. A very different thing than not finding it in scripture at all.

You must believe it based solely on the word that comes out of Rome. MariaG claims that we object the doctrine of Purgatory (and all those doctrines related to it) simply because we’re “protesting all that is Catholic.” Not true. There are many things “Catholic” on which we fully agree - those which conform to Biblical revelation. Purgatory, of course, not one of them. However, you accept the “doctrines” of Purgatory BECAUSE you’re Catholic. As a Catholic you can do no other.

Maybe this is true for those who never left the Catholic Church nor question it.

It however is not true for me as well as most others here in these forums. Many are either converts, reverts or cradle catholics who have diligently educated (or are trying to) educate themselves on the teachings of the Catholic Church and the scripture along with Tradition that goes along with these teachings.

Contrary to what you may believe, we are not required to blindly accept something just because Rome has spoken.

Maria

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, I came to believe in Purgatory from reading the Gospels.

It all started when someone pointed out the obvious to me - that Jesus never spoke about anything except how to get to Heaven - that that was His only subject - every parable He ever told was on that subject, and no other.

I figured out that Jesus cares nothing about sheep, or lost children, or coins, or prisons, and that all these things are simply figures and symbols that stand in for the various spiritual elements of our journey to Heaven.

So, when Jesus speaks of a prison out of which we can be released, what kind of place might He be referring to? Keeping in mind that Jesus cared nothing at all for literal prisons, literal debtors, literal kings, etc., and that every parable He spoke was on the subject of how to get to Heaven.

 

[john_ennis]

I agree that Paul’s suffering due to his ministry of taking the “word of reconciliation” both to Jews and Gentiles is related to his salvation, but not in any way FOR his salvation. You interpret Paul totally out of context for just a few verses earlier he writes:“For we do not preach ourselves (i.e., merit in his own sufferings) but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake”

it was not in the context of HIS cross, the only cross through which divine salvation could be wrought…

I think I see the crucial difference in our thinking. When I think of anyone suffering willingly in the name of Christ, I totally understand (as I’m sure you do, too) that it is Christ’s Grace that 1) makes it even possible for anyone to suffer faithfully, and
2) even gives us the will to say “yes”

and yet, I totally accept that He makes the sacrifice ours as well, and makes our cross a salvific, sacrificial cross. Only his sacrifice makes it possible, and yet with unimaginable condescension, he makes it ours at the same time.

When you hear any such thinking, you insist that this is men earning their own salvation. I won’t say your perspective is unreasonable, but I have to tell you that when you keep repeating that salvation can’t come from men, and only Christ’s cross has value, and so on, we already agree with you that it ALL comes from Christ.

But don’t you think it possible for him to MAKE a loving work really our own?

Peace.
John

PS, I don’t see Paul ever implying that Christ doesn’t do just that. He talks so much of suffering helping himself as well as others attain eternal life, but that is in complete agreement with Christ being the entire source of it all. [2 Thess 1:5; Phil 3:10; Eph 3:13; 2 Cor 4:11; Rom 8:17]

 

[Sixtus]

It seems most likely to me it is a process which may be instanteneous. But a process of purification to make the soul ready for the beatific vision.

 

[Montalban]

No. In Catholic belief, we see a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, paradoxically standing in the center of the throne, just as Revelation 5:6 states.It is finished!

All you’ve done is tried to justify a Catholic understanding that God was satisfied. I asked you why did He need to be?

What a long response you gave and missed the point.

 

[Montalban]

Then why have anything?

Doesn’t answer the question.

Why have a sacrament of penance for example?

Although it still doesn’t answer the question, it is a good question of itself, why have it? You assume that we need it.

Why not just go with the OSAS crowd and say that we don’t have to do anything because God has already forgiven us?

Still doesn’t answer the question. This seems to be a recurring problem

 

[Montalban]

Nobody said that Purgatory was a PLACE. We don’t know that. The Church doesn’t know that. According to what we know about it, it’s a process the soul goes through at the time of death.

Oh, and I meant to say to Apo…"Of course you don’t know what I’M talking about. That was a mistake, but I just had my intelligence insulted when Apo claimed that…I made the distinction clearly in my post what verse he left out…

P7

Purgatory - A place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
newadvent.org/cathen/p.htm
and
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

It is not a ‘nowhere’. I’m not suggesting it is a place like New York is a place. Purgatory is a place where purgatorial forces go to work.

 

[Montalban]

AlegreFe:

God could never NEED for anything.

Then the Catholic Church needs to change the language by which they explain this relationship.

I have, for the record, already acknowledged that we all sometimes use this type of language. BUT it is not the best way.

“I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”
1 Corinthians 3:2

2.9 "The fear of hell trains beginners to flee from evil; the desire for the reward of the good things gives to the advanced the eagerness for the practice of virtues. But the mystery of love removes the mind from all created things, causing it to be blind to all that is less than God. Only those who have become blind to all that is less than God does the Lord instruct by showing them more divine things.
“Chapters on Knowledge”

We use different language for different audiences. However, Catholics continue to use the terminology of a God that needed to be satisfied.

AlegreFe:

But He created us and He does want our Love. God said Himself that He was a jealous God. Do you recall that one?

¿Sí o No? Should I start conversing in Spanish for you? Or do you understand English? You do know what jealous means right? Dios es un Dios celoso.

What’s this Spanish guff for?
Ní thuigim Spáinnis
(I don’t understand Spanish) - (in Irish )

AlegreFe:

All that aside… since you think everyone has time to read every single post in here does this mean that you’ve read every post in here?

Where did I say that you must do this?

AlegreFe:

Just in case you haven’t you can read from post number 608 to 611. And even if you have read those posts then just humor me and read them again please. They are not responses directly to you but I state how God does want “fruits of our labor” to show proof of our repentance. To us Catholics, that is doing penance for our sins.

What this has to do with anything, who knows?

So far you’ve gone off on a couple of weird tangents.

AlegreFe:

When a Catholic goes to Confession and confesses their sins
they are given the absolution by Jesus Christ. Jesus is just physically hidden by the flesh of the Priest. But I can assure you, the Priest is standing in Persona Christi. (“Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I have done for your sakes, in the person of Christ.” 2Cor 2:10)
After the absolution we are forgiven for our sins.
Then we do our Penance. That penance is done in satisfaction and/or proof of our repentance. The penance has nothing to do with actually being forgiven for our sins, Jesus has already forgiven us.
Our sins leave our souls with a blemish, so to speak, even after forgiveness. That blemish has to disappear completely before we see the Beatific Vision. The penance that we do in satisfaction for our repentance removes that blemish. So the more penance you do here on earth the less time in Purgatory you will spend.

This, then, as a sacrament is superfluous; absolution is only a declaration that sin is forgiven through faith, and satisfaction is needless because Christ has satisfied once for all men.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
Why did God need to be satisfied? I haven’t even got in to discussing ‘merit’ (which is ‘earned’).

In short, why’s the Catholic church stuck on this kind of language?

AlegreFe:

As far as “time” in Purgatory, there is no direct teaching on that. But what is to say how much time or whether “time” in Purgatory is “time” as we think here on earth? We don’t know this. We don’t even know if this is an actual place. When Catholics speak of Purgatory as a “place” we are not actually saying that it is an actual place. That word is just used for sake of conversation.

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
It’s a place of being, that’s not necessarily physical.

In summary, aside from your unusual tangents (about Spanish, etc.), the Catholic Church teaches that one must earn heaven. You simply trade off latter punishments by more pennance now. It’s still the language of the ledger, with God as a celestial accountant keeping tabs of your spiritual bank balance. And until He’s satisfied from the sins you’ve committed against him (even if Jesus has pre-paid it - like in a loan), then God still needed satisfaction

 

[Pryority7]

Purgatory - A place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
newadvent.org/cathen/p.htm
and
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

It is not a ‘nowhere’. I’m not suggesting it is a place like New York is a place. Purgatory is a place where purgatorial forces go to work.

Right, like I said, the Church doesn’t know whether it’s a place or both a process and a place…A place OR condition of temporal punishment…a process the soul goes through on the way to Heaven.
P7

 

[deborahssong]

Greetings in the Lord…

I would like to say this.......I have been a student of the word for a long time now, and in my heart I beleive the suffering that Paul refers to sosooooo often is not the physical suffering ALONE that all talk about.  In his physical he may have suffered physical pain but the suffering referred to in most is suffering persecution  FOR HIS NAME SAKE!  Jesus said HImself, They hate me and they will hate you, my paraphrase perhaps, but none the less what He said. 
  We each of us, were not called to carry suffering as He did on the cross. Jesus was the "only" one to pay for mankinds sin!  We are called to pick up the cross,........To lay down our own selfsih ways of living period, and follow HIM!  Yes, in the persecution of being a christian, physcial pain can come, from torture, being imprisoned for the gospel sake, like the two girls who went to Iraq as missionaries and were captured!  That is true suffering for Jesus, and yes now beginning in this country, having rights removed in this country, christian rights that is........and we havent seen anything yet!
  If God desires that you and I suffer in physical pain, then Jesus while on earth disobeyed His Father.....He healed all who came to Him except in the town where He came from.....why? Scripture is clear about that.....the town had people in it that doubted Him and did not beleive Him!!!!!  Jesus is the same....yesterday, today and forever. I know there are many references to suffering in Gods word, but what I have come to know in my heart, New testament, it was a horrid time, a time of much much pagan idol worship, withcraft and all sorts of horredous things.  To speak of what Jesus did for all mankind, in that society, was like throwing a line to the wolves......and that is why most christians were persecuted. The government and society were so threatened by the gospel! and they were going to stamp out its message! It brought freedom to the captive mind and soul.....and Rome desired complete service to themselves!!!!! 
 We are attacked yes, by physical suffering, "satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I(Jesus) have come....that they may have life and life MORE abundantly." but I am here to tell you that my own physcician said to me a year ago, most illnesses, app 80% are stemming from emotional/ mental issues.  I read a report from an old newsweek magazine about this very thing.  We are a society full of pain and suffering .....you bet......and we are also a society of people WITHOUT the knowledge of scripture and the power of the living GOD!!!  and I am quite sure this will be debated......however if you dont beleive .....neednt worry!  It wont happen for you......just like it didnt in the hometown of Jesus, Himself.......If I am off the path here of topic, i am sorry.  But I have watched and read about suffering as if it is a glory type of feat!  How does God get glory, please tell me from someone dying with cancer? Please tell me that?  In the manner in which they suffer? How does the "power" of the LIVING GOD get glory in that horrible situation?   Please tell me where does the suffering in the body line up with pruning by fire.......that is referring to getting our whole lives in line with Him and most people are head strong and stubborn and it is most definitely a pruning to get OUR wills lined up with Christ's!  We are rebellious and stiffnecked......Scriptures words by the way....Well give all kinds of time on tv to Harry Potter, who teaches children that witchcraff( by the way is forbidden in scripture) is ok, teaching us that we can draw on powers...( most definitely not Gods).yet deny the power of our God.....hmmmmmm. you tell me.

anyway to God be the glory,great tinigs He has done…God Bless each of you in your walk…

 

[AlegreFe]

We use different language for different audiences. However, Catholics continue to use the terminology of a God that needed to be satisfied.

I don’t know about this. But perhaps this “need” for satisfaction is just to emphasize the “want.”

We usually say we “need” something when we really want something really bad; and indeed we really don’t need it.

Montalban:

What’s this Spanish guff for?
Ní thuigim Spáinnis
(I don’t understand Spanish)

Sorry, I just thought you understood Spanish because of your screenname.

(in Irish )

Don’t you mean Gaeilge? I thought “Irish” was a nationality. My husband is Irish and I’m Mexican. Those are nationalities. I guess the language could be called “Irish.” But it just sounds weird to me saying that my mother-in-law “speaks Irish” when indeed she speaks Gaeilge. Oh well.

Montalban:

Where did I say that you must do this?

You didn’t. But you assumed that I read whatever it was that talked about “the issue of why an never-changing God changes (according to Catholic teaching).” ← your words. I never brought that up in any of my posts and I never read it in here either.

Montalban:

AlegreFe:

Just in case you haven’t you can read from post number 608 to 611. And even if you have read those posts then just humor me and read them again please. They are not responses directly to you but I state how God does want “fruits of our labor” to show proof of our repentance. To us Catholics, that is doing penance for our sins.

What this has to do with anything, who knows?

If you understood our Sacrament of Confession and how we have to do penance then you would understand what Purgatory is. I use many scripture verses in post 608-611 that say we have to do penance as proof of our repentance. I won’t quote scripture if it is not about Purgatory. Those verses do not specify purgatory but if you had an inkling on what Purgatory means then you would understand the connection with doing penance, showing fruits of labor as proof of repentance, the sacrament of confession and Purgatory. They’re all connected one way or another.

Montalban:

So far you’ve gone off on a couple of weird tangents.

This is only a “weird tangent” for you because you have no understanding of what Purgatory means. Everything I’ve posted (aside from the occasional randomness as in the Spanish “guff”) has to do with Purgatory in one way or another whether you understand it or not, believe it or not.