Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[AlegreFe]

This, then, as a sacrament is superfluous; absolution is only a declaration that sin is forgiven through faith, and satisfaction is needless because Christ has satisfied once for all men.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
Why did God need to be satisfied? I haven’t even got in to discussing ‘merit’ (which is ‘earned’).

Emphasis added by AlegreFe

There’s no need here. God does not need us, He just is.
This also goes back to what I was saying about reading my posts from 608 to 611.

Montalban:

In short, why’s the Catholic church stuck on this kind of language?

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
It’s a place of being, that’s not necessarily physical.

I don’t see “need” in there. I don’t see anything that implies that we’re saying that God needs satisfaction.

Montalban:

In summary, aside from your unusual tangents (about Spanish, etc.), the Catholic Church teaches that one must earn heaven. You simply trade off latter punishments by more pennance now. It’s still the language of the ledger, with God as a celestial accountant keeping tabs of your spiritual bank balance. And until He’s satisfied from the sins you’ve committed against him (even if Jesus has pre-paid it - like in a loan), then God still needed satisfaction.

Again, you keep on harping about “need” here. God demands it according to scripture but only because He wants it and not “needs” it.

 

[Sixtus]

It is also plausible that though my sins have been forgiven in Christ, my mind is infused with memories of sinning, the pleasures of sinning.

Christ has paid the price for my sins, but I still know of sin.

Surely it is necessary for all stain of memory and knowledge of sin to be purged, so that I may enter the beatific vision as if I had never known sin.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Not all non-Roman Catholics (not the careful avoidance of the term, Protestants) object to the concept / doctrine of Purgatory. A great many Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, (those in the "ultra high-church " party both in and outside the Episcopal Church) and a great many Evangelical Catholic Lutherans (the Lutheran equivalent of the theologically conservative Anglo-Catholics) accept Purgatory as it is taught in the conservative wing of the Roman Catholic Church.

But then both groups have a rather low opinion of the Reformation, considering it to have been an unnecessary catastrophe, and the resulting division of the Western Church a scandal and a tragedy of epic proportions, not a triumph nor even a good thing in any way.

That was a nice addition to this thread.

It seems to blend in very well with our former posts…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1777558&postcount=532

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1777616&postcount=533

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1777632&postcount=534

Thank you.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

All you’ve done is tried to justify a Catholic understanding that God was satisfied. I asked you why did He need to be?

God didn’t need this. We did.

The eternal punishment of hell was avoided by the fact that God was satisfied with his Son dying on the cross for us.

He didn’t do this because he needed to do this.

He did this because we needed this in order to be saved from hell.

God was not in danger of going to hell. We were.

Montalban:

What a long response you gave and missed the point.

No. You said here the fact remains that in Catholic belief God has changed from being satisfied, to being one who needs satisfaction.

My post here explained exactly why this claim you made against Catholicism was not true. I even explained this in detail at that-- and you’ve apparently ignored the entire message behind this too.

I’ve just explained to you that God is pleased with his son’s sacrifice in order to redeem us. What he did he did freely out of love in order to save us-- not himself.

In fact, he was willing to not save himself so that we could be saved through his sacrifice which he freely offered from the cross.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yet the whole idea that one must suffer, himself, for so-called temporal punishments in order to be made ready for heaven’s entrance does certainly teach such a notion. Oh, you can deny it, but that’s how contradictory Catholic teaching is on the whole issue of salvation.

And that’s why no Catholic has any assurance of it. His whole hope of salvation is probationary and controlled by the church, not only in this life but the the one after in Purgatory as well. After all, it’s the church (its hierarchy) that controls the so-called treasury of “merits” that can lessen or even avoid one’s stint there.

All this is totally unbiblical and totally contrary to the gospel of the cross of Christ.

One would almost think that you’re totally ignoring our explanations. The idea that we must share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory is a totally biblical concept…
Romans 8:17:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Although this post was directed to hoosierdaddy, this same post does apply to your claims against Catholicism too. There’s more here in case you’re interested.

 

[Pryority7]

.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Ahem…It’s funny how you continue to deny verse 9 in that post from earlier apo…it looks to me like this is simply a testament to your lack of honesty in confronting the true issues when they come to you like a pie in the face.

P7

 

[AlegreFe]

It is also plausible that though my sins have been forgiven in Christ, my mind is infused with memories of sinning, the pleasures of sinning.

Christ has paid the price for my sins, but I still know of sin.

Surely it is necessary for all stain of memory and knowledge of sin to be purged, so that I may enter the beatific vision as if I had never known sin.

This is another way to put it. It is a good simple explanation. But this is certainly not enought to just “forget” about our knowledge of sin. Whatever is left in our soul that has anything to do with sin and the effects of sin needs to be wiped fully clean before we see God. I like your explanation and I will remember it when I need a very simple explanation for my Protestant friends.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Theosis is Christian life itself; of leading a life of Christ, of becoming like God. Catholic teaching does not teach that we become God.

Yes. Actually, she does teach this…

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

Actually, check out the link above. Everything is explained very clearly in II. Grace. Some things should be clarified in this, such as 1997, which says, “Grace is a participation in the life of God.”

Likewise, check out this section too, I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

Among other sections, there’s also this…

460 The Word became flesh to make us **“partakers of the divine nature”:**78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Quote 80 comes from St. Athanasius, found in De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B-- and quote 81 comes from St. Thomas Aquinas, found in Opusc. 57, 1-4.

This comes back to Romans 8:11 for example…

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

This is also reflected in Galatians 2:20 as well…

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Is this not akin to theosis?

 

[Rferg]

It is not a Biblical concept for Protestants because it is not in their Bible, or at least not clearly enough.

“not in their bible” is there more than one bible?

 

[Pryority7]

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Brought to you by…Apo…

Thank you very much…

 

[Pryority7]

"I have no idea what you’re talking about. "

Brought to you by Apo…thank you very much…

 

[Bishopite]

According to the written Word of God, I have been cleansed of ALL my sins through the sacrificial, shed blood of Christ on the cross. Salvation is not based on whether or not I have "repented

" (confessed) of ALL committed sins, but that I have “repented,” that is, turned (changed directions, a change of mind) from unbelief to belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

So…you don’t sin any longer?

But if you’re questioning even what the written Word of God is, then you’re not even at first base yet in respect to the faith.

 

[Bishopite]

Mr. ExNihilo,

Are you saying we become Gods?
That would be akin to the teaching of Mormonism. We become “like” God in His nature as our natures are made in His image and again perfected and sealed in grace. Partaking of His divine nature doesn’t mean we are equal to the nature of God, (for no one is) rather we become like Him perfect, without the full power and majesty only He pocesses.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Are you saying we become Gods?

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church saying we become Gods?

No. I’m saying that God lives in us by the Holy Spirit. I’m quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church by the way-- so, no, I’m not saying that we become gods.

I’ve already explained this in this thread by the way…in detail right here…
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Certainly you’re familar with St. Athanasius’ thoughts, right?

Was St. Athanasius blaspheming God when he said, “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God”?

Although a sentence like this could be seriously misunderstood, when one looks at it in the proper context, it is easy to see what St. Athanasius implied.

Again, was St. Athanasius blashpeming God when he said, “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God”?

No. He was talking about how Christ was incarnated so that he might indwell all people in order to draw them into God and transfigure them into the likeness of his divine son. And Christ accomplished through his shed blood on the cross.
Ephesians 2:13:

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ

.

Indeed, if Christ had not died and been ressurected, then even his incarnation would not have saved us.
1 Corinthians 15:14:

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Saying that Christ manifest within us, moving us to partake in his sufferings in order to be purified by his blood and glorify his name is no more blasphemous than St. Athanasius saying “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God”.

We become Children of God, and there’s a big difference between becoming Chidren of God and gods in our own right.

That would be akin to the teaching of Mormonism. We become “like” God in His nature as our natures are made in His image and again perfected and sealed in grace. Partaking of His divine nature doesn’t mean we are equal to the nature of God, (for no one is) rather we become like Him perfect, without the full power and majesty only He pocesses.

No, no, no! I’m not talking about Mormonism! I’m talking about Catholic teachings!

---

I’m getting so tired of putting this much effort into explaining things, retracing the posts that people have posted against Catholicism, providing explanations, searching through the Catechism for answers, and really trying to help other fellow Catholics to defend Catholicism-- only to have total rubbish thrown in my face to mess things up.

sigh

I give up. If you want to assist us to explain this, then you won’t mind if I really do step out this time and let you take over for me, ok?

In other words, explain this yourself Bishopite. I’m really involved in another thread now and I’ve said as much as I can on this matter. I’m about to get into St. Teresa of Avila’s distinction between Union and Rapture, comparing it to St. Francis’ Exaltation, and I highly doubt there anything else I can contribute to this thread that hasn’t already been said.

Thanks for letting me participate guys and gals.

God bless you all richly in Christ.

 

[AlegreFe]

“not in their bible” is there more than one bible?

There is only ONE bible and that is the Catholic Bible because the Catholic bible has all the books in it and doesn’t have missing books because of one M. Luther taking some of the books out precisely because of the doctrines of Purgatory and Justification.

2 Maccabees, Chapter 12, verses 39 to 46
39 On the following day, since the task had now
become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather
up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their
kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found
amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law
forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that
this was why these men had been slain.
41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord,
the just judge who brings to light the things that
are hidden.
42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the
sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble
Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves
free from sin, for they had seen with their own
eyes what had happened because of the sin of
those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his
soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver
drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide
for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted
in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he
had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise
again, it would have been useless and foolish to
pray for them in death.
45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid
reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in
godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they
might be freed from this sin.

 

[AlegreFe]

---

I’m getting so tired of putting this much effort into explaining things, retracing the posts that people have posted against Catholicism, providing explanations, searching through the Catechism for answers, and really trying to help other fellow Catholics to defend Catholicism-- only to have total rubbish thrown in my face to mess things up.

sigh

I give up. If you want to assist us to explain this, then you won’t mind if I really do step out this time and let you take over for me, ok?

In other words, explain this yourself Bishopite. I’m really involved in another thread now and I’ve said as much as I can on this matter. I’m about to get into St. Teresa of Avila’s distinction between Union and Rapture, comparing it to St. Francis’ Exaltation, and I highly doubt there anything else I can contribute to this thread that hasn’t already been said.

Thanks for letting me participate guys and gals.

God bless you all richly in Christ.

I know how you feel. Pray, pray, pray. You’re too good to get all worked up over this.

God bless you too!

 

[Bishopite]

Mr. Ex Nihilo;1811462]Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church saying we become Gods?

No. I’m saying that God lives in us by the Holy Spirit. I’m quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church by the way-- so, no, I’m not saying that we become gods.

I’ve already explained this in this thread by the way…in detail right here…

We become Children of God, and there’s a big difference between becoming Chidren of God and gods in our own right.

Right. One is sharing in Gods nature which is what you are saying and the other is taking on His nature which is not what you are saying.

No, no, no! I’m not talking about Mormonism! I’m talking about Catholic teachings!

Ok…I feel better now and sorry for the inconvinience And don’t worry I know my Catholic faith better than most but not as good as some I just wanted a clarification NOT an explanation of what you were saying.

---

I’m getting so tired of putting this much effort into explaining things, retracing the posts that people have posted against Catholicism, providing explanations, searching through the Catechism for answers, and really trying to help other fellow Catholics to defend Catholicism-- only to have total rubbish thrown in my face to mess things up.

Cheer up brother, it happens to all of us and yes it happens to me often; I often have to reference Scripture, Catechism, or books for answers too. I didn’t need an explanation, just a clarification and you did that, thanks.

sigh

I give up. If you want to assist us to explain this, then you won’t mind if I really do step out this time and let you take over for me, ok?

In other words, explain this yourself Bishopite. I’m really involved in another thread now and I’ve said as much as I can on this matter. I’m about to get into St. Teresa of Avila’s distinction between Union and Rapture, comparing it to St. Francis’ Exaltation, and I highly doubt there anything else I can contribute to this thread that hasn’t already been said.

Alright, again sorry for creating more trouble for you, time is of the essence for us all I can explain purgatory sure.

Thanks for letting me participate guys and gals.

God bless you all richly in Christ.

 

[AlegreFe]

I can explain purgatory sure.

I look forward to your explanations here and I hope some Protestants who actually want to learn and not just attack us on this doctrine, also look forward to your posts. I too am somewhat pooped out from repeating myself to some of the ones who refuse to see and not even want to see.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

Hasn’t the Pope just said purgatory doesnt exist?

 

[MariaG]

Hasn’t the Pope just said purgatory doesnt exist?

You would need to post a link to that.

It is possible the pope has said that purgatory as a place does not exist. Highly unlikely (I would even say impossible that he was said this speaking infallibly ) that the pope has denounced the teaching of purgatory though, which does not infact, include a “time” or “place” in it’s definition.

God bless,
Maria