Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[JoeyWarren]

Shawn said: The more and more time in reflection about purgatory, I wonder if it is not the work of Satan himself. It provides people with a false sense of security in their works here in that we can continue to slip up and everything will be alright through this sanctification process.

I would argue otherwise. Most Cradle Catholics are so afraid of a long time in purgatory, that they take more of an effort to be perfect as our Father is perfect.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is truely work of Satan. Once I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, there is nothing I can do hereafter to affect my state of being saved. But that is for another thread.

 

[shawn34_a]

I would argue otherwise. Most Cradle Catholics are so afraid of a long time in purgatory, that they take more of an effort to be perfect as our Father is perfect.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is truely work of Satan. Once I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, there is nothing I can do hereafter to affect my state of being saved. But that is for another thread.

Why not? If you believe in Christ with all your heart, you’re just going to stay in purgatory a little longer to account for your sins according to this teaching.

I don’t believe in the once saved, always saved either. However no priest could ever explain how you could lose your salvation after you’ve been saved. Why not perform venial and temporal sins of the flesh if your still going to inherit the kingdom of God. Your purgatory stay will only be longer. If your truly in the Spirit, you will not perform these sins. That being said, if people continue to sin in such fashion, they never truly accepted Christ in their hearts and your baptism was of water, not of the Spirit.

2 Cor 2:17 Paul speaks of how the word of God can be corrupted by man, but Christ himself is incorruptible.
17For we are not, as £so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

Countless occasions speaks that we will sleep in Christ until the Day of the Lord and Coming of the Lord. Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. Not a tough concept. We will sleep spiritually until we are raised up to meet the Lord in the air at the Marriage Supper. I can support this view scripturally.

Where is the biblical scripture that you can draw a reasonable conclusion on the existance of purgatory? I don’t want to hear the teachings of anyone but GOD or JESUS, not a pope, not a cardinal, not a priest, only GOD or JESUS.

 

[Vigis]

Shawn I think you need to view Purgatory in a different way of sorts. Purgatory is not a place of second chances. Only those who are of the body of Christ can enter purgatory. Purgatory is a sign of God’s mercy on those who have honestly sought to know God and to do his will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin. Remember God does not tolerate sin in His presence, so He would be perfectly just in casting us into Hell if we die with a bond to sin or its effects. Purgatory is not a place of punishment, but of purification from sin before we enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This does not undermine Jesus’ sacrifice though. Purgatory is a way that salvation in Jesus actually happens or is applied to individual persons.

Second, salvation is not an event, but it is a process. Saint Paul himself never stated that he was saved, but that he was on the road to salvation. We can stray from the road at any time.

Even those who have the Holy Spirit within them still can sin. You have no proof otherwise.

<“Countless occasions speaks that we will sleep in Christ until the Day of the Lord and Coming of the Lord. Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. Not a tough concept. We will sleep spiritually until we are raised up to meet the Lord in the air at the Marriage Supper. I can support this view scripturally.”>

I do not understand what you are saying here. Could you please explain?

<“Where is the biblical scripture that you can draw a reasonable conclusion on the existance of purgatory? I don’t want to hear the teachings of anyone but GOD or JESUS, not a pope, not a cardinal, not a priest, only GOD or JESUS.”>

You as a Catholic should not only accept scripture. You seem to ignore tradition and the dogma of the Catholic Church. If you believe in Sola Scriptua then I just want to tell you that the Bible itself was composed by tradition. Now there are several scriptures that refer to the purification of the soul from sin which refers to Purgatory though not explicitly.

The dogmatic teachings of the clergy of the Catholic Church are the teachings of God.

God speed.

Vigis

 

[JoeyWarren]

<“Countless occasions speaks that we will sleep in Christ until the Day of the Lord and Coming of the Lord. Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. Not a tough concept. We will sleep spiritually until we are raised up to meet the Lord in the air at the Marriage Supper. I can support this view scripturally.”>

I do not understand what you are saying here. Could you please explain?

He believes in Soul Sleep. Sounds like an SDA is filling his head with Garbage.

 

[shawn34_a]

The dogmatic teachings of the clergy of the Catholic Church are the teachings of God.

God speed.

Vigis

Point 1
Trust me in that I fully understand what purgatory is. I was using a little sarcasm to show that the Protestant view is not much different. I understand that purgatory is a place that one goes for sanctification due to the venial sins that they died with.

Point 2
Paul saved - Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord £Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
Acts 13:9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him

Paul thoughtout Romans references to the struggle of following the commandment (law). There are many references by Paul to finishing the race. Salvation is a life long process and because we have the commandment, we know sin. Rom 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

As a Catholic, scripture should be our basis for justifying anything and everything that we learn. You should not be living on blind faith. Jesus gave us the NT through his scribes. I’ll ignore tradition and dogma if it’s not scripturally based, ie purgatory (very weak arguement the Catholic Church makes for it). Jesus’s word is the blue print for the road to salvation.

Where are these verses that you make reference to regarding the purification of the soul? I’ve been to so many websites that list scripture and only 1 verse could you make a case for (2 Maccabees).

Being that so many people are hung up on thinking that the Catholic Church is God’s church, let’s define Church according to the time of Christ.
The word translated “church” in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means “the called out ones.” However, the English word “church” does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means “dedicated to the Lord.” This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome’s translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be “assembly” because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to “come together,” i.e. a gathering. “Body of Christ” Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17)

 

[Pryority7]

The dogmatic teachings of the clergy of the Catholic Church are the teachings of God.

God speed.

Vigis

Point 1
Trust me in that I fully understand what purgatory is. I was using a little sarcasm to show that the Protestant view is not much different. I understand that purgatory is a place that one goes for sanctification due to the venial sins that they died with.
QUOTE]

I’m only going to touch on this point here…
Shawn, it is not a confirmed doctine that Purgatory is a PLACE. You’re already missing the point. Purgatory is more of a process the soul goes through after death on it’s way to Heaven. When we die, we still have sins that we will struggle with up until that point. The more we walk with Christ in this life, the more He will cleanse us from that or those sins. This will finally be finished after we die as we are going to Heaven. It is called Purgatory. The name “Purgatory” is not as important as the concept it describes. What will happen to our sin nature when we die? God will remove it. This removal is called Purgatory. That’s all.
The whole soul sleep idea you believe in is not Catholic Teaching. It’s not even a fundamental Christian teaching, period. Catholic Christian teaching is that when a person dies, he or she goes immediately to be with the Lord to face judgement. The body is what “sleeps”. At the end of the world, God will raise our bodies and reunite them with our souls, for ALL of creation will be restored to what it was meant to be from the beginning. That includes our physical selves.
Get it?
Please ask me anything you don’t understand, and I’ll be happy to fill you in on it.
Peace,
P7

 

[MrS]

Point 1
Trust me in that I fully understand what purgatory is. I was using a little sarcasm to show that the Protestant view is not much different. I understand that purgatory is a place that one goes for sanctification due to the venial sins that they died with.
QUOTE]

I’m only going to touch on this point here…
Shawn, it is not a confirmed doctine that Purgatory is a PLACE. You’re already missing the point. Purgatory is more of a process the soul goes through after death on it’s way to Heaven. When we die, we still have sins that we will struggle with up until that point. The more we walk with Christ in this life, the more He will cleanse us from that or those sins. This will finally be finished after we die as we are going to Heaven. It is called Purgatory. The name “Purgatory” is not as important as the concept it describes. What will happen to our sin nature when we die? God will remove it. This removal is called Purgatory. That’s all.
The whole soul sleep idea you believe in is not Catholic Teaching. It’s not even a fundamental Christian teaching, period. Catholic Christian teaching is that when a person dies, he or she goes immediately to be with the Lord to face judgement. The body is what “sleeps”. At the end of the world, God will raise our bodies and reunite them with our souls, for ALL of creation will be restored to what it was meant to be from the beginning. That includes our physical selves.
Get it?
Please ask me anything you don’t understand, and I’ll be happy to fill you in on it.
Peace,
P7

JPII discribed Purgatory as a state of being…

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

.

 

[shawn34_a]

Point 1
Trust me in that I fully understand what purgatory is. I was using a little sarcasm to show that the Protestant view is not much different. I understand that purgatory is a place that one goes for sanctification due to the venial sins that they died with.
QUOTE]

I’m only going to touch on this point here…
Shawn, it is not a confirmed doctine that Purgatory is a PLACE. You’re already missing the point. Purgatory is more of a process the soul goes through after death on it’s way to Heaven. When we die, we still have sins that we will struggle with up until that point. The more we walk with Christ in this life, the more He will cleanse us from that or those sins. This will finally be finished after we die as we are going to Heaven. It is called Purgatory. The name “Purgatory” is not as important as the concept it describes. What will happen to our sin nature when we die? God will remove it. This removal is called Purgatory. That’s all.
The whole soul sleep idea you believe in is not Catholic Teaching. It’s not even a fundamental Christian teaching, period. Catholic Christian teaching is that when a person dies, he or she goes immediately to be with the Lord to face judgement. The body is what “sleeps”. At the end of the world, God will raise our bodies and reunite them with our souls, for ALL of creation will be restored to what it was meant to be from the beginning. That includes our physical selves.
Get it?
Please ask me anything you don’t understand, and I’ll be happy to fill you in on it.
Peace,
P7

1 Corithians 15:51-54
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”£

And why should we not all sleep for some are still alive as mentioned in the other verses. So those that sleep, sleep in Christ and await the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

1 Thess 4:15-17
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.£ 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Here are three verses substantiating my belief.

When we are in Christ, we are not in the physical body of Christ but in the Spirit. Romans pounds the point that we sin in the flesh. We need to be in the spirit of Christ.

Jesus’s concern was never of our physical body, but of the spiritual body which is eternal. So when we sleep, we are sleeping spiritually and physically. When we are raised up, it’s our spiritual body that’s raised. If we’re in purgatory, we are not sleeping. This is JESUS talking.

 

[Pryority7]

1 Corithians 15:51-54
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”£

And why should we not all sleep for some are still alive as mentioned in the other verses. So those that sleep, sleep in Christ and await the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

1 Thess 4:15-17
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.£ 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Here are three verses substantiating my belief.

When we are in Christ, we are not in the physical body of Christ but in the Spirit. Romans pounds the point that we sin in the flesh. We need to be in the spirit of Christ.

Jesus’s concern was never of our physical body, but of the spiritual body which is eternal. So when we sleep, we are sleeping spiritually and physically. When we are raised up, it’s our spiritual body that’s raised. If we’re in purgatory, we are not sleeping. This is JESUS talking.

Good response Shawn, a few points to note however…

1. When Paul talks about the flesh in Romans or other letters, he is talking about our sin nature, which is not physical. The idea of the “flesh” being of a physical nature is materialism, which states that the body is bad while the spirit is good. That’s what some early Gnostic sects believed.

The readings above in 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thess by no means explain that the soul sleeps in the grave awaiting the Last Day. You’re reading into the text, dude. If soul sleep was so true, it would have been added to Hebrews 9:27 which states: “Just as it is appointed for that human beings die once, after this the judgement”.
Also, (and it’s funny how I’m using this verse…right Apo?)
2 Corinthians 5:8- “We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord”

Also, to say that the soul is constrained by the elements of time contradicts the essence of what a soul is to begin with. There is no time after death, so this “sleep” period between death and the end of the world wouldn’t make sense in light of the nature of our souls. Purgatory can be instantaneous for all we know, but there are no particulars about time constraints after death because time simply does not exist there.
Have you read Revelation 7:9-17? This happens before the 2nd Coming so how could be if they should all be “asleep”?
Look it up. It’s too long to write here.
P7

 

[AlegreFe]

You should not be living on blind faith. Jesus gave us the NT through his scribes. I’ll ignore tradition and dogma if it’s not scripturally based, ie purgatory (very weak arguement the Catholic Church makes for it). Jesus’s word is the blue print for the road to salvation.
(emphasis added)

You sound like my Protestant brother. Are you sure you’re not a Protestant wannabe? My agenda is not to knock you down but to enlighten you about the truths of the Catholic teachings. Purgatory exists whether you believe it or not.

Purgatory is NOT the work of Satan. There is no way that Satan would want for Purgatory to exist. Why would Satan want God to be a Merciful God for us? He wouldn’t. Purgatory is God’s Mercy working for us.

The work of Satan is OSAS. Satan wants you to believe that you are secure in all of your sins and he is laughing at everyone who has this sense of security which is completely false. Satan is the biggest liar and the biggest lie is OSAS. Purgatory is the Truth of God’s Mercy and Satan hates that.

 

[shawn34_a]

Good response Shawn, a few points to note however…

The readings above in 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thess by no means explain that the soul sleeps in the grave awaiting the Last Day. You’re reading into the text, dude. If soul sleep was so true, it would have been added to Hebrews 9:27 which states: “Just as it is appointed for that human beings die once, after this the judgement”.
Also, (and it’s funny how I’m using this verse…right Apo?)
2 Corinthians 5:8- “We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord”

Also, to say that the soul is constrained by the elements of time contradicts the essence of what a soul is to begin with. There is no time after death, so this “sleep” period between death and the end of the world wouldn’t make sense in light of the nature of our souls. Purgatory can be instantaneous for all we know, but there are no particulars about time constraints after death because time simply does not exist there.
Have you read Revelation 7:9-17? This happens before the 2nd Coming so how could be if they should all be “asleep”?
Look it up. It’s too long to write here.
P7

In Hebrews 9:27, we don’t know if it’s instantaneous. All we know is that there is judgment. When the judgment happens is at the second coming.

What you have to understand about Revelations is that the book in not chronological from chapter 1 to 22. It is in an order. The bowels, seals, and trumpets occur in order. Like how the gospels are written, Revelations is 3 different stories culminating at the same point, Armageddon. If you read Rev 6:12-17 (6th seal), 11:15-19, and 16:16-21 (7th bowel) you’ll see they all describe the same event.

When you understand this, everything else starts to fall into place.

A run down of how I’ve learned that things will unfold

1st seal
2nd seal
3rd seal
4th seal 1st trumpet (4th seal spands the 1st 6 trumpets)
4th seal 2nd trumpet " "
4th seal 3rd trumpet " "
4th seal 4th trumpet " "
4th seal 5th trumpet " "
4th seal 6th trumpet " "
Confimation of the Covenant
3 1/2 years of peace
5th seal/Abomination Desolation at about the same time
Great Tribulation begins 3 1/2 years, two witnesses arrive
Saints killed, War in Heaven
Satan casted out of heaven
Tribulation ends
Wrath of God begins
6th seal/7th trumpet/1st vial (6th seal, 7th trumpet, 7 vials happen at about the same time)
6th seal/7th trumpet/2nd vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/3rd vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/4th vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/5th vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/6th vial " "
last minute warning by God to repent
two witnesses die/2nd coming/Gathered together/Silence in heaven/Marriage supper
Armageddon
6th seal/7th trumpet/7th vial (Same event)
7th seal

Read the scriptures and see how perfectly they fit together without contradictions. The 2nd coming happens only once. Armageddon happens only once.

You can add Matthew 24 into this time line perfectly too.

 

[Zooey]

I believe that he now knows of God’s mercy in purgatory… and the last attachments to world/flesh/devil have been purged there for all eternity… now he is sanctified fully so that he may enter heaven.

and… He is Catholic now… :yup:

I need a ‘laughing & crying for joy’ smiley…Because I underestand what you mean here…That is what Grandpa Mark wanted!! He wanted to be perfectly free of sin. He wanted to be "home’, in his eternal home. He knew he was just “passing thru” this world, & that the one to come was his real home!! He knew he couldn’t hope to be sinless here. But he was “looking for a city, whose Ruler & Maker is God”.
Sanctification was what he wanted so much. It is what all who love our Lord so dearly want so much. To be, not just in Heaven, but to be there freed of all that held them–us–back, in this life…

 

[Zooey]

. Purgatory exists whether you believe it or not.

Purgatory is NOT the work of Satan. There is no way that Satan would want for Purgatory to exist. Why would Satan want God to be a Merciful God for us? He wouldn’t. Purgatory is God’s Mercy working for us.

The work of Satan is OSAS. Satan wants you to believe that you are secure in all of your sins and he is laughing at everyone who has this sense of security which is completely false. Satan is the biggest liar and the biggest lie is OSAS. Purgatory is the Truth of God’s Mercy and Satan hates that.

I think that this is the truth!

I have to say, that I have not always believed this…I am your “Friendly Neighborhood Methodist” after all, & I have struggled with it. (I also struggled w/OSAS, until I realized just what you have said here: It is a false sense of security, & that means it is a lie. And satan is the father of lies).

I have a little touch of OCD. I hate eating when I am not perfectly clean. (I have been known to wash as best I can in McDonalds ladies’ room, before having coffee).
I don’t want to sit down at the table prepared for me, in the Heavenlies, with mud on my heart, or anger on my soul. It feels wrong. It feels “oocky/yucky”.
I want a chance to take a bath, comb my hair, & change my clothes.** Then** I can sit down at last…

I know wonderful, dear Christian people who believe OSAS, but they try so hard. They live better lives than I do, because they don’t–as one of my aunts has said, “I don’t want to be embarrased when I see Jesus”.
But they don’t know about this. They can’t accept it…and yet…and yet…
There is a longing in the Christian heart, for that holiness that we do not yet have…
Purgatory…I don’t use the word much. I just think of it as a shampoo & a soak in a hot tub of soapy water, before I see the One Who died for me…face to Face.
Who wouldn’t want** that**??? You know???

 

[Pryority7]

In Hebrews 9:27, we don’t know if it’s instantaneous. All we know is that there is judgment. When the judgment happens is at the second coming.

You’re right, we don’t know if it’s instantaneous (our time in Purgatory if you could CALL it time…), but you need to understand that there are two judgements according to the Bible and Catholic teaching…there is the particular judgement, which is individual at death. The soul goes to the Lord immediately to be judged. The General Judgement is the Judgement you’re talking about and what Revelation 20 talks about. ALL the dead, saved are not, are raised and reunited with their bodies for the final consumation of the ages.

What you have to understand about Revelations is that the book in not chronological from chapter 1 to 22. It is in an order. The bowels, seals, and trumpets occur in order. Like how the gospels are written, Revelations is 3 different stories culminating at the same point, Armageddon. If you read Rev 6:12-17 (6th seal), 11:15-19, and 16:16-21 (7th bowel) you’ll see they all describe the same event.

When you understand this, everything else starts to fall into place.

A run down of how I’ve learned that things will unfold

1st seal
2nd seal
3rd seal
4th seal 1st trumpet (4th seal spands the 1st 6 trumpets)
4th seal 2nd trumpet " "
4th seal 3rd trumpet " "
4th seal 4th trumpet " "
4th seal 5th trumpet " "
4th seal 6th trumpet " "
Confimation of the Covenant
3 1/2 years of peace
5th seal/Abomination Desolation at about the same time
Great Tribulation begins 3 1/2 years, two witnesses arrive
Saints killed, War in Heaven
Satan casted out of heaven
Tribulation ends
Wrath of God begins
6th seal/7th trumpet/1st vial (6th seal, 7th trumpet, 7 vials happen at about the same time)
6th seal/7th trumpet/2nd vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/3rd vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/4th vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/5th vial " "
6th seal/7th trumpet/6th vial " "
last minute warning by God to repent
two witnesses die/2nd coming/Gathered together/Silence in heaven/Marriage supper
Armageddon
6th seal/7th trumpet/7th vial (Same event)
7th seal

Read the scriptures and see how perfectly they fit together without contradictions. The 2nd coming happens only once. Armageddon happens only once.

You can add Matthew 24 into this time line perfectly too.

I understand that Revelation is not chronological…I’ve studied this book for years…what I am saying is that concept of soul sleep does not exist in scripture.

Check out Revelation 6:9-11
“And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you not judge and avange our blood on them that dwell on the earth?’
And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them that they should rest for a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.”

As you can see, the Second Coming had not taken place yet, so why are these martyrs in Heaven interceding for their brethern who are still being persecuted? See what I mean?

Also, check out Ephesians 4:7-10,
“But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore, it says:
‘He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; He gave gifts to men.’
What does ‘He ascended’ mean except that He also descended into the lower regions of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.”

Jesus decended and then ascended taking with Him those that were captive waiting for the time of His first coming (the old testament saints). Heaven was now open to them. This is mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6) Look it up. Jesus also promised the theif on the cross as they were dying that he would join Him in paradise…what’s that about?
Soul sleep? Unbiblical dude.
P7

 

[shawn34_a]

Purgatory is NOT the work of Satan. There is no way that Satan would want for Purgatory to exist. Why would Satan want God to be a Merciful God for us? He wouldn’t. Purgatory is God’s Mercy working for us.

The work of Satan is OSAS. Satan wants you to believe that you are secure in all of your sins and he is laughing at everyone who has this sense of security which is completely false. Satan is the biggest liar and the biggest lie is OSAS. Purgatory is the Truth of God’s Mercy and Satan hates that.

I never said that Satan would want purgatory to really exist for he doesn’t. He only desires the lie of purgatory to exist so that individuals have a false sense of security about themselves. Purgatory eliminates the fear of consequences, relative to hell, related to dying with temporal and venial sins. Why go to confession if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why repent if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why perform works if I’m going to purgatory anyways?

If purgatory doesn’t exist, we always have the fear of the consequences of living a sinful life. If purgatory exists, we only have the fear of a longer sanctification process. If purgatory exists, we nolonger have to fear the Lord our God too. Which sounds more plausible? Which perspective can be substantiated scripturally in many places? If purgatory can be substantiated, let’s discuss where in the Bible it can be found.

 

[MrS]

I never said that Satan would want purgatory to really exist for he doesn’t. He only desires the lie of purgatory to exist so that individuals have a false sense of security about themselves. Purgatory eliminates the fear of consequences, relative to hell, related to dying with temporal and venial sins. Why go to confession if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why repent if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why perform works if I’m going to purgatory anyways?

If purgatory doesn’t exist, we always have the fear of the consequences of living a sinful life. If purgatory exists, we only have the fear of a longer sanctification process. If purgatory exists, we nolonger have to fear the Lord our God too. Which sounds more plausible? Which perspective can be substantiated scripturally in many places? If purgatory can be substantiated, let’s discuss where in the Bible it can be found.

I can only hope someday, when a loved one of yours dies… some one who was, in your estimation,worthy of eternity with God… you will see that they were not really perfect - totally free of ANY attachment to the world, flesh or devil. And knowing that nothing unclean will enter Heaven, you may then be grateful for the Mercy of God… that He has given us the grace of purgatory… told us about it in His Scripture, and allowed us to have… as Fr Groeschel would say… the final rinse.

We are at that time, outside of time. Purgatory is not a place where we will spend two days, 500 hours etc. It is a state of being we will experience AFTER we have seen the face of God at the individual judgment. Not seeing Him, while in Purgatory… that alone must be so painful.

 

[Pryority7]

Wow Shawn, it looks like you had a really bad catechis teacher…

 

[Church_Militant]

I never said that Satan would want purgatory to really exist for he doesn’t. He only desires the lie of purgatory to exist so that individuals have a false sense of security about themselves.

That has to be some of the most screwed up reasoning I have ever seen.

1. Purgatory is not a lie.
2. It creates no “false sense of security”, since in order to even make it to Purgatory you have to already be judged to be going to heaven and there is nothing whatever in the Purgatorial teachings of the Catholic faith that would even remotely imply that a grave and flagrant sinner would get some sort of alleged “second chance” to get right with God at that point. Only the ignorant will even make a case for that.

Purgatory eliminates the fear of consequences, relative to hell, related to dying with temporal and venial sins.

How do you figger, trigger? Only someone ignorant of the cleansing fire of the love of Almighty God would make such a statement. What does the Word of God say? “For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:29) To be imperfect and to be in His presence may be all the Purgatory that any of us ever need, but the suffering of that exposure to pure goodness may very well be the most excruciating pain we ever experience.

Look at 1st Corinthians 3:13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Why go to confession if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why repent if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why perform works if I’m going to purgatory anyways?

Rationalizations all and all based on fallacious presumption upon God’s mercy and grace. Since they are fallacious (and unscriptural) then only the unconverted will try to make use of them.

If purgatory doesn’t exist, we always have the fear of the consequences of living a sinful life. If purgatory exists, we only have the fear of a longer sanctification process.

Fallacious reasoning that the reality will very quickly dispel.

If purgatory exists, we no longer have to fear the Lord our God too.

That’s crazy as hell and that kind of reasoning is precisely what will send people there.

Which sounds more plausible?

Who cares…it’s wrong anyway…

Which perspective can be substantiated scripturally in many places? If purgatory can be substantiated, let’s discuss where in the Bible it can be found.

Been there and done that.

 

[jmcrae]

I never said that Satan would want purgatory to really exist for he doesn’t. He only desires the lie of purgatory to exist so that individuals have a false sense of security about themselves. Purgatory eliminates the fear of consequences, relative to hell, related to dying with temporal and venial sins. Why go to confession if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why repent if I’m going to purgatory anyways? Why perform works if I’m going to purgatory anyways?

Uh - so that you can qualify to go to Purgatory instead of being condemned to Hell. (You are aware that unconfessed sin and good deeds omitted cause you to go to Hell, right?)

If purgatory doesn’t exist, we always have the fear of the consequences of living a sinful life. If purgatory exists, we only have the fear of a longer sanctification process. If purgatory exists, we nolonger have to fear the Lord our God too. Which sounds more plausible? Which perspective can be substantiated scripturally in many places? If purgatory can be substantiated, let’s discuss where in the Bible it can be found.

If there is no Purgatory, then only a very few have any hope at all, since the alternative to Purgatory isn’t Heaven; it’s Hell.

 

[shawn34_a]

Wow Shawn, it looks like you had a really bad catechis teacher…

To tell you the truth, when this was brought up in RCIA, this is what happened.

Set the scene. 20 x 30 room. Chairs lined lengthwise pointed towards the front center portion of the room. The priest looks just like George Castanza (sp?) from Seifeld. He took off his glasses, rubbed his eyes, sighed, and went into trying to explain it for some.

He was excellent teacher. Understanding the principle is easy. But what are you always told to do when confronted with something difficult. You turn to your Bible. Where is something that provides even somewhat conclusive proof for this? There isn’t any.