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JoeyWarren
Guest
The Jewish purgatory is known as Gehinnom. Judaism 101 states,
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JoeyWarren
Guest
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sterryfamily
Guest
Another very good question.
Basically Christ’s coming to earth and His death and resurrection were the fulfillment of the Old Testament covenants. He replaced the Old Covenant with the new. The apostles speak of Baptism as being the new circumcision (the new rite through which one enters God’s covenant family).
Works of the law which were condemned or discontinued were basically the works (from torah) which were required by the old covenants, but no longer. The new covenant is in Christ’s Church, both in Heaven and on earth.
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sterryfamily
Guest
Now you’re talkin’ like a true Catholic! :yup:
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Sixtus
Guest
Pardon me, I think lack of belief in purgatory is the influence of satan.
If I lived my life to the very best of my ability, prayed 10 times every day, gave away everything I owned and lived a life of perfection upon my death would not accept an invitation to ‘see’ or enter into the presence of Almighty God.
I would be aware that He is the perfection of all perfections.
Absolutely pure and good in every respect.
Many realms of angels have not even seen Him. Only the highest orders [the bible tells us-Seraphim and Cherubim]
These vastly good beings are so far above me, mere angelic forms are vastly better than me. If they do not see God, what right have I?
It makes me aware of my scarlet sinfulness. I could never reach that state of perfection in this life. Even though my Saviour paid the price of my sins.
Before I can enter into the presence of God, it is necessary for me to make ready and remove from me every residue of memory of sin, so that which stands before God is not only forgiven but is so pure that it is as if it had never sinned.
I know my sins are forgiven but I cannot attain that level of perfection in this life. I will achieve it in purgatory :
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Bishopite
Guest
And Jesus established not just a Church, but an authoritative Church (Mt 16:15-19,Mt 18-15-18) that guides us into truth and helps us stay out of sin, and gives us absolution when we fall into sin and which recognized the canon.
You are correct that the Apostles didn’t write down everything, not all of what they taught was inscripturated.
As far as the Eucharist is concerned,
Mt 26:27-28 is where Jesus passed on the Eucharist to the Apostles…
"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
The NIV has a few problems one being its translation of the Greek word* paradosis* which means Traditions…
“But no less disturbing than Luther’s case, is that of current evangelical versions of Scripture that systematically expunge the “Catholic” overtones of certain passages by means of translations that significantly alter the meanings of these texts. Some examples of this are furnished by the Reformed scholar, James R. Payton, Jr., who criticizes the deliberate “de-catholicizing” of Scripture in the New International Version (NIV), a widely respected and otherwise excellent evangelical translation. He illistrates this “de-catholicizing” in the NIV’s handling of a number of passages dealing with two key elements of the Church’s “catholic” heritage: the Lord’s Supper and tradition. He points out, for example, that there are thirteen instances of the term paradosis (usually in its plural form, paradosis) in the NT, of which ten are critical of human traditions that have departed from God’s Word. In the other three cases, Paul commends traditions to the churches to whom he writes (1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thes 2:15; 3:6). Significantly all ten of the negative references are translated by the NIV as “traditions,” while all three of the positive references are deliberately mistranslated as “teachings”—the translation for didaskalia or didache, not paradosis.” (“Not by Scripture Alone” Queenship publishing, Sungenis, 1997)"
Because circumcision is part of the Old Testament ceremonial law i.e., “works of law” Paul talks about in Romans and kosher dietary laws, etc., that were temporary in their effects. Jesus established a new covenant (Mt 26:27-28) with sacramental methods of grace, e.g., the Eucharist and baptism. He relaced baptism for circumcision, which washes away sin, Col 2:11-13
“In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the circumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.”
The “council” of Jerusalem wasn’t really a “council” but a group of Jewish scholars who got together to deal with the rise of Christianity. These scholars rejected the dueterocanonicals, but moreover the rejected the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John! How can any Christian rely on them when their ability to recognize new revelation had ceased.
James’ teachings were of the Jews? You don’t believe the book of James is canonical/infallible? Again, the Jews lost their ability to recognize and pass down new revelation after they turned their back on the Messiah. Jesus established a new covenant with the Apostles and gave them the guidance through the Holy Spirit, which He sent down in John 14,16, so that when they taught, their words were His words…including James.
Luke 10:16–“Whoever listens to you listens to me [Jesus]. Whoever rejects you [Apostles] rejects me [Jesus]. And whoever rejects me [Jesus] rejects the one who sent me [God].”
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SoonerServant
Guest
I don’t think that you all are arguing over the exsistence of A “purgatory”, but rather the things that will or will not be experienced there. For example, the Catholics will need to prove that there will be time spent there and whether or not there will be pain.(by the scriptures) Since this is the common ground. I didn’t say that the others need to prove anything, because they are basing their arguement on lack of evidence.
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SoonerServant
Guest
Bishopite,
Luke 10:16 is a tired arguement. You are taking it out of context. If I quote something Jesus said, you have heard me(in a physical sense), but you have also heard Him.(in an instructional and priciple way)
Luke 10:16 is a tired arguement. You are taking it out of context. If I quote something Jesus said, you have heard me(in a physical sense), but you have also heard Him.(in an instructional and priciple way)
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MrS
Guest
The verse "… he who hears you, hears Me…"etc… was expressed long before any Traditions were put to paper… and way long before any paper was offered to the world as inspired.
To take something out of context is a common trait of those in the Church, and those not in the Church (by Church, I mean the context of the original meaning… not the one used by 30,000+/- communities today)
I contend that by not being Catholic, one is already taking the Lord out of context … being a cafeteria “christian” as it were, and picking and choosing which parts of Scripture belong, and which might confirm particular beliefs.
Hence your personal bias, from your postion outside the Church, will prevent you from accepting lots of truths.
You may think you hear… but you do not.
Protestant objections to purgatory really might not exist… one can’t see something that for them is not visible.
But it will be…
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SoonerServant
Guest
None of you can prove purgatory according to the boundaries I placed in my previous post. The fact is, the rules about purgatory are all assumed assertions made by men. They are not based on scripture. Yes, there is a place where all souls will be held until judgement day. (“Paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”) There is no proof that we will have to suffer and no proof that any span of time will be spent suffering.
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SoonerServant
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And please don’t use such terms as “Cafeteria Christian”. On the same basis by which you assume that, you assume the exsistence of “purgatory”, LACK-OF-EVIDENCE. Read it slowly, or maybe even a couple of times, just to let it settle.
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MrS
Guest
There is no assumption that you have chosen to accept parts of the Gospel…
There is no assumption that you have a lack of understanding in the arena of theology… and
There is no assumption that you missed the play on words… your occupation
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Sixtus
Guest
AMEN
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SoonerServant
Guest
Don’t be offended. Just show me the evidence and I’ll go away. Surely that’s not asking too much? …You do have the evidence, right?There is no assumption that you have chosen to accept parts of the Gospel…
There is no assumption that you have a lack of understanding in the arena of theology… and
There is no assumption that you missed the play on words… your occupation
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MrS
Guest
go back to square one…ummm… post one… start there get back to me,
oh, that’s right, the scriptural support, and the proper interpretations, not to mention the Faith & Reason thing… they are not evidence for you.,… sorry. your loss.
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s lame… You’ve been show evidence out the ears and you still sit there and assert that it is insufficient. I have to question your honesty on this, but for then sake of poking your head into the evidence again, I’ll repost both the Biblical and historical evidence that exists.
If you don’t refute every last bit of it, I’m going to report you for baiting and disrespecting Catholics here on CAF.
There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.
Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”
1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.
1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”
and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.
2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…
Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…
(Cont’d)
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Church_Militant
Guest
The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this). I offer info from my good friend Stillsmallvoice who is an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel:
The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).
As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.
In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).
I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):
In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Stillsmallvoice was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.
In spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.
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The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).
As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.
In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).
I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):
In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Stillsmallvoice was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.
In spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.
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Bishopite
Guest
What Luke 10:16 is showing is Apostolic authority, and then couple that with Apostolic succession and then you’d understand what Luke 10:16 means. It’s not a tired argument, it’s actual evidence that the Apostles were given the authority of Jesus’ own words…and why?
Because Jesus said He would give His Holy Spirit to help them in John 14,16…the Spirit would guide them into all truth.
Even Protestant theologians agree that the Apostles words had the authority of Christ Jesus behind them. That’s why when you look at what criteria is used for Protestants in determining the canon of Scripture one of them is it had to be written by or come from the authority of an Apostle.
One book I’m thinking of off hand is “A general introduction to the Bible” by Geisler and Nix, both Protestants.
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SoonerServant
Guest
Yes, I agree that there is a place of holding for the spirits. I already stated that.(Luke 16) However,what you are speaking of, purgatory, would have to be a third state of exsistence on your way to the fourth and final, Heaven. This place mentioned in Luke 16, is referred to as “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. Now, excuse me if I’m miss informed, but I’ve never associated “paradise” with “torment”. And yes, Jesus did preach to the spirits there after he died (the ones from the OT). After all, all who believe, confess and obey will be saved. So, Jesus told them the Gospel, or “good news” about His death, burial and ressurection, so that they too would have the oppurtunity believe. Now that that missunderstanding has been cleared up, let me ask you a question.
Does the RCC believe in a third state of exsistence on your way to Heaven?
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SoonerServant
Guest
And concerning Apostolic Succesion:
I do believe that Jesus gave the Apostles greater authority than you and me. However, I don’t see where He gave them the authority to pass it on. He gave these men a special purpose, most noteably Judas Iscariot, Peter and Paul. Judas, who iniciated the trial and death of Jesus. Peter, who seems to be the spokesmen of the twelve. And Paul, the bridge between the Jews and Gentiles.
I do believe that Jesus gave the Apostles greater authority than you and me. However, I don’t see where He gave them the authority to pass it on. He gave these men a special purpose, most noteably Judas Iscariot, Peter and Paul. Judas, who iniciated the trial and death of Jesus. Peter, who seems to be the spokesmen of the twelve. And Paul, the bridge between the Jews and Gentiles.
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