Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[SoonerServant]

Also,

If I’m not mistaken, the question was “Why do Protestants object to purgatory?” So, IMO, this thread should be closed.

 

[MrS]

Also,

If I’m not mistaken, the question was “Why do Protestants object to purgatory?” So, IMO, this thread should be closed.

no, the thread should not close yet…

you are trying to answer the OP question.

Unfortunately, you are trying harder to ignore the answers.

There are currently three (3) states of “being” in the eternal…

Heaven… no one unclean can enter … hence all are fully Holy, and are Saints, and are now saved

Hell… no one can escape this final judgement… and they have judged themselves by dying outside a state of grace.

Purgatory… those who have died and are not condemned to hell forever, but are not perfectly Holy to enter Heaven.

At the end of time… the 2nd coming… Purgatory will finish those who are destined to Heaven, and be removed by God. There will be no more creation, no more inheirited Original Sin, and hence no one to be needing to be made Holy.

All 3 states are outside of time… and part of God’s plan for both mercy and justice.

.

 

[SoonerServant]

no, the thread should not close yet…

you are trying to answer the OP question.

Unfortunately, you are trying harder to ignore the answers.

There are currently three (3) states of “being” in the eternal…

Heaven… no one unclean can enter … hence all are fully Holy, and are Saints, and are now saved

Hell… no one can escape this final judgement… and they have judged themselves by dying outside a state of grace.

Purgatory… those who have died and are not condemned to hell forever, but are not perfectly Holy to enter Heaven.

At the end of time… the 2nd coming… Purgatory will finish those who are destined to Heaven, and be removed by God. There will be no more creation, no more inheirited Original Sin, and hence no one to be needing to be made Holy.

All 3 states are outside of time… and part of God’s plan for both mercy and justice.

.

Aw, there’s the problem. Tell me then. What is the final judgement for?

 

[SoonerServant]

BTW, you didn’t answer my question correctly. “…on your way to Heaven.” Please don’t stray. The subject of Hell will be for another time.

 

[jmcrae]

Aw, there’s the problem. Tell me then. What is the final judgement for?

To reveal God’s justice to the nations. The particular judgement will already have been passed on each individual, at the time of death. We will know our own final destination at the particular judgement, but we will see God’s justice at the final judgement, when we are shown what God did to those who have hurt us -whether they went to Hell, or else what punishments they experienced in Purgatory for what they did to us.

 

[SoonerServant]

To reveal God’s justice to the nations. The particular judgement will already have been passed on each individual, at the time of death. We will know our own final destination at the particular judgement, but we will see God’s justice at the final judgement, when we are shown what God did to those who have hurt us -whether they went to Hell, or else what punishments they experienced in Purgatory for what they did to us.

Excuse me, but by “us” what do you mean?

 

[SoonerServant]

Btw, I already cleared up the fact of three states of exsistence on your way to Heaven. My question is,“Does the RCC believe in four states of exsistence on the way to Heaven?” If not, then perhaps you have missed that part in the bible. (Luke 16) Nowhere does it state that any sort of punishement will be delt to the believers being held here. Only to the unbelievers in Tartarus.(the place of torment)

 

[MrS]

Btw, I already cleared up the fact of three states of exsistence on your way to Heaven. My question is,“Does the RCC believe in four states of exsistence on the way to Heaven?” If not, then perhaps you have missed that part in the bible. (Luke 16) Nowhere does it state that any sort of punishement will be delt to the believers being held here. Only to the unbelievers in Tartarus.(the place of torment)

how about stepping up the NT… at the time of Jesus’ story, even Heaven was not yet opened… it would take His death
AND His resurrection to re-open the gates of Heaven.

At the same time hell and purgatory exist… there is no 4th State…

unless you mean a protestant concept of some other condition for the soul experience after this life.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Abraham’s bosom was in that third place not of hell and not of heaven.

The Rich Man was also in that third place not of hell and not of heaven.

Yes both are separated by a great divide. But they are in the same realm. If not in the same realm, then neither could have conversed with the other.

Equate it to two mountain top plateus separted by a valley. You can converse thru the distance of the air, but you cannot reach each other.

Paradise is relative.

Can a paradise be a place of suffering and still be happy at the same time? Yes. I am in a state of suffering but I am also happy because I know my final destination is heaven and not hell.

 

[jmcrae]

Excuse me, but by “us” what do you mean?

Literally everyone, since everyone has been hurt by someone’s sin, even if only Adam and Eve’s.

The murdered unborn will see what happens to their mothers, and to the doctors who “helped” them get the abortions. The Jews of Dachau will see what happens to Hitler and everyone who cooperated with him. The slaves will see what happens to everyone who cooperated with slavery, and if they were abused at the hands of a master, they will see what happens to him, after getting through his earthly life with no consequences.

The Judgement Day is when God’s justice will become public. All of our sins will be revealed, and all of our victims will be recompensed.

 

[Sixtus]

The murdered unborn will see what happens to their mothers, and to the doctors who “helped” them get the abortions. The Jews of Dachau will see what happens to Hitler and everyone who cooperated with him. The slaves will see what happens to everyone who cooperated with slavery, and if they were abused at the hands of a master, they will see what happens to him, after getting through his earthly life with no consequences.

The Judgement Day is when God’s justice will become public. All of our sins will be revealed, and all of our victims will be recompensed.

Amen

 

[Bishopite]

[SoonerServant;1862161]Yes, I agree that there is a place of holding for the spirits. I already stated that.(Luke 16) However,what you are speaking of, purgatory, would have to be a third state of exsistence on your way to the fourth and final, Heaven. This place mentioned in Luke 16, is referred to as “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. Now, excuse me if I’m miss informed, but I’ve never associated “paradise” with “torment”.

First of all, we don’t know how much torment is actually given, but some theologians have described it as a place/state were one is suffering yet happy to be in that state/place, remember all of those in purgatory are on their way to the full glory of heaven with God.
The “holding for the saints” could very well be purgatory and what you’ve described as anothe state is something new to me and certainly NOT part of Protestant theology. I’m glad you’ve brought up Luke 16. In that passage we have the rich man who is in torement yet is also commiting an act of charity by telling father Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers that they will to be in this place of suffering. Now the rich can’t be in hell since there is NO charity in hell.
Now there is a great chasim that can’t be crosses, however this is prior to Jesus’ resurrection.

And yes, Jesus did preach to the spirits there after he died (the ones from the OT). After all, all who believe, confess and obey will be saved. So, Jesus told them the Gospel, or “good news” about His death, burial and ressurection, so that they too would have the oppurtunity believe. Now that that missunderstanding has been cleared up, let me ask you a question.

I agree and Jesus did preach to the spirits to those in prison, purgatory.

Does the RCC believe in a third state of exsistence on your way to Heaven?

No. There are three possible sceneriors for everyone.

1. The saved if they die without being fully sanctified then they will have to go through some sort of purgation (a final sanctification) in what Catholicism calls purgatory. ALL of these people will eventually go into what Catholicism calls the beatific vision (seeing God in His full glory).

2)Those who died as martyrs for Christ go straight to heaven since they fully gave their lives to Jesus Christ as a sacrifice, it’s called the baptism of blood.

1. The dammed who will go straight to hell.

Whether purgatory is a place or a state isn’t defined by the Church. The whold concept is really a rational and logical deduction if you think about it, for most all of us won’t be fully sanctified at death and heaven can’t accept one drop of unrepented sin (which is still sin) (Rev 21:27) so the Church and Scripture says that there obviously is another state/place that the just will go to on their way to heaven, called purgatory.

 

[Bishopite]

Aw, there’s the problem. Tell me then. What is the final judgement for?

What Protestants call the final judgement is what Catholicism calls the general judgement, it’s the same thing.

The particular judgement is when a person dies and is judged, will go to heaven most via purgatory all others to hell, e.g., Heb 9:27
newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm

The general judgement is when God ends the world and time ends, then satan and those in hell are judged (for the final judgement) e.g.,Mt 25:31-46 and they are given there bodies to everlasting torment.
The just will be experience the resurrection of the body and their glorified bodies will be perfectly united with their perfected souls.
newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

 

[Bishopite]

First of all, we don’t know how much torment is actually given, but some theologians have described it as a place/state were one is suffering yet happy to be in that state/place, remember all of those in purgatory are on their way to the full glory of heaven with God.
The “holding for the saints” could very well be purgatory and what you’ve described as anothe state is something new to me and certainly NOT part of Protestant theology. I’m glad you’ve brought up Luke 16. In that passage we have the rich man who is in torement yet is also commiting an act of charity by telling father Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers that they will to be in this place of suffering. Now the rich can’t be in hell since there is NO charity in hell.
Now there is a great chasim that can’t be crosses, however this is prior to Jesus’ resurrection.

I agree and Jesus did preach to the spirits to those in prison, purgatory.

No. There are three possible sceneriors for everyone.

1. The saved if they die without being fully sanctified then they will have to go through some sort of purgation (a final sanctification) in what Catholicism calls purgatory. ALL of these people will eventually go into what Catholicism calls the beatific vision (seeing God in His full glory).

2)Those who died as martyrs for Christ go straight to heaven since they fully gave their lives to Jesus Christ as a sacrifice, it’s called the baptism of blood.

1. The dammed who will go straight to hell.

Whether purgatory is a place or a state isn’t defined by the Church. The whole concept is really a rational and logical deduction if you think about it, for most all of us won’t be fully sanctified at death and heaven can’t accept one drop of unrepented sin (which is still sin) (Rev 21:27) so the Church and Scripture says that there obviously is another state/place that the just will go to on their way to heaven, called purgatory.

 

[SoonerServant]

Literally everyone, since everyone has been hurt by someone’s sin, even if only Adam and Eve’s.

The murdered unborn will see what happens to their mothers, and to the doctors who “helped” them get the abortions. The Jews of Dachau will see what happens to Hitler and everyone who cooperated with him. The slaves will see what happens to everyone who cooperated with slavery, and if they were abused at the hands of a master, they will see what happens to him, after getting through his earthly life with no consequences.

The Judgement Day is when God’s justice will become public. All of our sins will be revealed, and all of our victims will be recompensed.

I agree with you, to a point. I do believe that our sins will be revealed and our good deeds weighed against our evil deeds. I don’t, however, agee that we will have to suffer for our sins on the earth.(Then again I don’t believe in original sin.) I believe, for the righteous, this day is to see what you will recieve for your reward in heaven, and, for the non-believers, to see what your punishment for eternity will be. As I’ve said, there is no evidence in Luke 16 or any other scripture that says we will have to suffer after death. Like one of you sayed,“The whold concept is really a rational and logical deduction if you think about it…”

A “deduction” with room for human error.

 

[Bishopite]

If they are saved they are in Christ. If they are in Christ they have the righteousness, holiness, and perfection of Christ. From what does Christ then need to be purged?

Because you can be justified but not completely sanctified and if you die without being compeletly sanctified (which most everyone will be) then you will need to be purged from your sin for heaven and sin are NOT compatable, cf. Rev 21:27.
All those in the state/place of purgation called purgatory are the just who DO go to heaven.

 

[AlegreFe]

ESV
2 Thess 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

But if this is the case, why do Catholics not call for circumcision for it was tradition. I’m sure there’s many traditions that related to the Jews that were not passed on. Was that not the reason for the formation of the Council of Jerusalem? (Rhetorical question). But I do believe Peter’s teachings were of Christ, while James were of the Jews.

Circumcision has been fulfilled with infant baptism. So we do hold to the Traditions. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judism. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, He came to fulfill them, and that He did!

Just ask any Jewish person that has converted to Catholicism and they’ll tell you that they are now fulfilled in being Catholics.

 

[Bishopite]

I agree with you, to a point. I do believe that our sins will be revealed and our good deeds weighed against our evil deeds. I don’t, however, agee that we will have to suffer for our sins on the earth.(Then again I don’t believe in original sin.) I believe, for the righteous, this day is to see what you will recieve for your reward in heaven, and, for the non-believers, to see what your punishment for eternity will be. As I’ve said, there is no evidence in Luke 16 or any other scripture that says we will have to suffer after death. Like one of you sayed,“The whold concept is really a rational and logical deduction if you think about it…”

A “deduction” with room for human error.

Well, no, again, Jesus established one authoritative Church Mt 16:15-19,Mt 18:15-18 that is guided by the Holy Spirit John 14,16 and it is protected from human error because the Holy Spirit is without error.
According to your logic we can give our best guesses as to what Scripture means but then every theological concept is subjective and prone to error. Jesus said in Mt 16 that “the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church” and since He means what He says and history proves the pedigree of Catholicism it makes for a perfectly rational statement that Jesus established an authoritative Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.

And finally, you have a signature that says “context, context, context”

Well how do you know the context of Scripture?

 

[anamchara]

Why do Protestants object to Pergatory.

Because it’s not true

 

[Bishopite]

Originally Posted by Sixtus
Why do Protestants object to Pergatory.

Because it’s not true

Are you saying purgatory is not true?