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SoonerServant
Guest
They mean in the Catholic sense of the word. There, question answered. Now can we close this thread already?
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anamchara
Guest
Ya! you wanta take it outside Mr!
I’m joking, just throwing some humor in
I don’t normally come over here.Where am I anyway? Ohh non-Catholic Religion, I seemed to have lost me way.
Sorry for the totally off topic moment of non-sense, back to your regular scheduled debate
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SoonerServant
Guest
If I’m not mistaken, and I’m not. The Holy Spirit (name removed by moderator)ired the Apostles to write the letters and books that now comprise the NT. And though the churches of the first century didn’t have an official, bound copy of them all, they were known to have been circulated throughout the churches. Thus, through the Apostles, the Spirit lead the church unto all truth.Well, no, again, Jesus established one authoritative Church Mt 16:15-19,Mt 18:15-18 that is guided by the Holy Spirit John 14,16 and it is protected from human error because the Holy Spirit is without error.
According to your logic we can give our best guesses as to what Scripture means but then every theological concept is subjective and prone to error. Jesus said in Mt 16 that “the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church” and since He means what He says and history proves the pedigree of Catholicism it makes for a perfectly rational statement that Jesus established an authoritative Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.
And finally, you have a signature that says “context, context, context”
Well how do you know the context of Scripture?
And, where, you ask do I get the ability to say what the context of a scripture is? Why a reasoning and logical brain! Coupled with my handy-dandy concordance!
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SoonerServant
Guest
You know, something funny occurred to me a little while after joining this forum. It’s so approapriately named, because I sure do get a lot of “Catholic” answers, but not very many logical ones. lol I guess I could have expected as much.
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Godfollower
Guest
Look. We know nothing impure can enter Heaven. On that we’re agreed. We also know that, at the Judgment, Christ will pronounce us (those not going to Hell) clean. I believe that we are also agreed on that. For the most part, Catholics and Protestants agree that (being human) we still suffer from sins, or at least suffer (I think even OSAS followers agree that we suffer) from sinful tendencies (even if we avoid a sin, we still suffer from concupiscence, the desire for things that are sinful).
Here’s where we seem to part company:
Protestants teach that Christ will pronounce us clean in a sort of judicial-like ceremony; our sins will be covered up (the analogy is a snow-covered dung heap – we’re sinful but we appear to be clean). Catholics agree that Christ will pronounce us clean in a sort of judicial-like ceremony; but we also believe that Christ’s Word is self-executing (“Let there be light!” Poof! etc.). By pronouncing us clean, He actually makes us clean. So our sins will not be covered up; they will actually be taken away.
That removal we call Purgatory (we’ll be “purged” of our sin). It is not a third possible destination in the afterlife; it is only an anteroom of sorts to Heaven. Each of us is going either to Heaven or to Hell; some of us who are headed to Heaven will have to go through Purgatory first.
Now imagine the process of our sins actually being removed. As that sin (or sinful tendency, for the OSAS analysis) gets taken away from us, it will probably be painful, just like having an abscessed tooth removed.
I have no idea how long the process will last. It might last a long time; it might be an instant. But whatever sinful tendencies I have as I approach Heaven will be removed from me (I believe St. Paul said it would be “as through fire”). That’s all.
Abraham, etc. were in the abode of the dead (neither Heaven nor Hell) until the Resurrection. So we know that there is some sort of waiting “area” (we don’t know whether it’s really a physical place; all things are possible with God) in the afterlife. Given Jesus’ clear implication that some sins can be forgiven in the afterlife, and given that nothing impure enters Heaven, we simply believe we will be purged of sin prior to entering Heaven. There’s nothing unscriptural about that.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
I am a Programmer/Analyst. My profession is to think logical and concise. Catholicism is so logical, it’s a wonder I did not join it sooner. But I was fed all the misconceptions and misinformation at my local Protestant Church as a child. Even then, I read the Bible myself and found it to be at odds with my local Protestant churches.You know, something funny occurred to me a little while after joining this forum. It’s so approapriately named, because I sure do get a lot of “Catholic” answers, but not very many logical ones. lol I guess I could have expected as much.
Catholicism is sane, rational, and logical. Sooner, theology is like a large database. Protestantism is a filtered database…
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JoeyWarren
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SoonerServant is the type of Christian that believes once you are saved, you are 100% sanctified and are in a state ready to enter heaven. He believes all his sins have been washed and paid for. And all future sins are atoned and washed away as soon as they occur. If not that he believes he is impervious to Sin. There are verses to support this, if taken alone, but in context with the entire Bible it is not true.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
I will repost this again:
Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.
Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.
Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.
70 years pass since birth.
Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.
Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.
Twin B?
From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.
I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.
Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life.
The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?
Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.
Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.
But again the Realm of God is outside our understanding of Time and Space.
Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.
Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.
Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.
Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.
70 years pass since birth.
Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.
Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.
Twin B?
From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.
I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.
Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life.
The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?
Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.
Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.
But again the Realm of God is outside our understanding of Time and Space.
Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.
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Strummer
Guest
Interestingly, I too am a Programmer/Analyst and frankly I find the “specs” for Purgatory to be lacking. How long? Under what conditions? As far as I’ve been able to glean while there is some potential scriptural support for it, it is somewhat vague. Furthermore, both Catholicism and Protestantism rely upon faith, either upon the Church or upon one’s “grace thru Scripture”. Faith is hardly logical.
As to your example of the two twins, I would suggest you re-read what, for me, is one of Jesus’ hardest parables: the workers in the vineyard (Matt 20). Yes, it hardly seems “fair” (perhaps you would say “logical”) that a deathbed conversion would grant the same access as a sinless life but that would be putting Man’s rules upon God’s way. The RC accepts that baptism by the Spirit can occur and a heartfelt acceptance without access to Catholic sacraments might just be thing. I certainly cannot say with great authority and leave it to the mercy of God.
As to your example of the two twins, I would suggest you re-read what, for me, is one of Jesus’ hardest parables: the workers in the vineyard (Matt 20). Yes, it hardly seems “fair” (perhaps you would say “logical”) that a deathbed conversion would grant the same access as a sinless life but that would be putting Man’s rules upon God’s way. The RC accepts that baptism by the Spirit can occur and a heartfelt acceptance without access to Catholic sacraments might just be thing. I certainly cannot say with great authority and leave it to the mercy of God.
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Bishopite
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Yes that’s funny. I asked you if you believed in purgatory because you said you affirmed that it wasn’t.Ya! you wanta take it outside Mr!
I’m joking, just throwing some humor in
Where am I anyway? Ohh non-Catholic Religion, I seemed to have lost me way.
Sorry for the totally off topic moment of non-sense, back to your regular scheduled debate
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sterryfamily
Guest
Sooner,
The early Chrisitans also circulated, quite extensively, the letters of Pope Clement and the writings of Polycarp and Ignatius.
Why does your Bible not include the Gospel of Peter? Why does it not include the Gospels of Mary or Judas. These were later circulated quite a bit.
The answer is that the Catholic Church (the Church established by our Lord and Savior) determined, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit which our Lord promised, that these books were not inspired and didn’t belong in the canon.
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SoonerServant
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Hm, there are a lot of factors not mentioned here. For example: Did twin B hear the Gospel during it’s life? If so, did it reject it? This would be grounds for denial into the kingdom.(2 Peter 2:21) But, really, the only difference here would be how long each of them were christians. The longer you are a christian, the more chances you have to increase your grace with God, by obeying and doing good deeds. The good deeds do not determine whether you make it to Heaven, but rather, how great a reward you will get. Obviously, twin A’s rewards will be significantly greater than twin B, but twin B should be grateful they even made it to Heaven. Now, this is not to say that just because someone says they accept Jesus and confess Him as the Christ, they are saved. It depends more on their heart, whether they truly believed these things. This will be up to God. I think we will all be very surprised at who we see and don’t see in Heaven. God is fair, righteous and just. His decision will be also. Amen.
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jmcrae
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This makes it sound like Heaven is not the reward.
And what is Heaven? If he is not experiencing perfect happiness, then he’s not “in Heaven,” (the state of perfect happiness) is he?
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SoonerServant
Guest
lol, I like how you say the “Catholic Church” decided all these things. As though no one else in the history of christianity has looked into it. If you’ll notice now, the Catholics referrence a lot of writings that many other christians wouldn’t even consider.(some of the ones named above) These books were set side by side with others and compared. They looked for the parallels and the differences. If something in one of them didn’t agree with the others, it was dismissed. It was a question of logic too. God didn’t give us brains just to take up space. In my experience, anyone who claimed to be a messenger of God used miraculous signs to display their authority. I have yet to see anything of the sort from the bishops or the Pope.
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SoonerServant
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Heaven is our eternal exsistence after our mortal lives. It’s not going to be a big open plain where everyone walks around happy and smiling. It will be an actual place of cities and buildings. Catholic believe in the negative reinforcement method. I believe in the positive reinforement method.(once inside His saving grace.) Do Catholics believe one can fall out of grace?
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jmcrae
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How hard are you actually looking?
I have personally met many people who have received miraculous healings from various Catholic priests - I know two people who have been raised from the dead; one was shot by a ganster through both the head and the heart and pronounced dead; on the way to the morgue, a priest gave him Last Rites, and he sat up on the gurney; the wounds were gone - that happened right in the ambulance, in front of the paramedics.
The other was hit while driving by a drunk driver; he wasn’t wearing his seatbelt and went through the front window of the car and into speeding rush hour traffic, where he was run over several times until the cars could stop - he died in the hospital before a priest could get to him to give him last rites - his wife decided to take his body to the Basilica of St. Joseph for anointing by a Bishop; at the moment that his body was anointed, he sat up and asked for his son.
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SoonerServant
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Are you a witness to both?
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jmcrae
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That’s the after-life; not Heaven. Heaven is the state of being perfectly happy. Those who are in Heaven will experience the after-life as “a happy place” but those who are in Hell and in Purgatory are also in the same place, but experiencing it quite differently.
Yes, since by definition, to be in the state of grace is to be without sin. Every time we sin, we fall out of grace. We get back in through reconversion, by meeting Jesus in the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Communion.
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SoonerServant
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Do you need only to sin once to fall out of His grace? Do you believe one can increase his grace with God?(grace=favor btw)
And to clarify, I was speeking about Heaven alone, not Hell. I know the difference.
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jmcrae
Guest
I wasn’t actually there when these things happened, but I know both people fairly well, and I also know the others who were around at the time, who witnessed these things.
I taught the son of the man who was hit by the drunk driver, and he and I also team-taught together for a year (his son was in three classes that I taught, including that one). He also owns a restaurant, and when I was between jobs one time, I worked for him at the restaurant for a few weeks.
The man who was shot is also a priest, himself, and he was the assistant pastor at my parish for several months. I got to know him fairly well, since I used to make my Confessions to him, and we also worked on some projects together, and I attended some events where he was the main speaker or assisting with the event in some way.
Neither of them have any reason to lie about what happened, and neither do any of the witnesses.
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