Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[SoonerServant]

I wasn’t actually there when these things happened, but I know both people fairly well, and I also know the others who were around at the time, who witnessed these things.

I taught the son of the man who was hit by the drunk driver, and he and I also team-taught together for a year (his son was in three classes that I taught, including that one). He also owns a restaurant, and when I was between jobs one time, I worked for him at the restaurant for a few weeks.

The man who was shot is also a priest, himself, and he was the assistant pastor at my parish for several months. I got to know him fairly well, since I used to make my Confessions to him, and we also worked on some projects together, and I attended some events where he was the main speaker or assisting with the event in some way.

Neither of them have any reason to lie about what happened, and neither do any of the witnesses.

Unless you yourself are a witness, your testimony is void.

 

[jmcrae]

Unless you yourself are a witness, your testimony is void.

Whatever. I am sure that there are miracles happening all around you in the Catholic Church where you live, too - just listen to the people for yourself; they will tell you.

 

[SoonerServant]

Btw, you using that story to prove a point in this debate seems like a good enough reason to tell someone that story. Or, maybe you would tell someone else, who would innocently believe you. [moderator removed unchartiable comment]

 

[SoonerServant]

Whatever. I am sure that there are miracles happening all around you in the Catholic Church where you live, too - just listen to the people for yourself; they will tell you.

I am determined to know nothing among you, save Christ and Him crusified.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you need only to sin once to fall out of His grace?

Yes, since whenever we sin, we are essentially sticking our tongues at God and telling Him that we don’t want His grace. (It is not possible to sin without knowing that you are sinning, by the way - one can make a grave error without realizing it, but to sin, one must have an understanding of what it means to sin.)

Do you believe one can increase his grace with God? (grace=favor btw)

Yes, we can. We do this by avoiding sin, and increasing in good works, including faith, love, hope, prayer, scripture reading, attendance at Church, the Sacraments, and doing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

 

[SoonerServant]

Yes, since whenever we sin, we are essentially sticking our tongues at God and telling Him that we don’t want His grace. (It is not possible to sin without knowing that you are sinning, by the way - one can make a grave error without realizing it, but to sin, one must have an understanding of what it means to sin.)

Yes, we can. We do this by avoiding sin, and increasing in good works, including faith, love, hope, prayer, scripture reading, attendance at Church, the Sacraments, and doing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

Hm, can’t say that I agree with all those good works, but yes, you have the main idea. Does one sin negate all the grace you accumulated? Can God find more grace with you than someone else?

 

[SoonerServant]

Yes, since whenever we sin, we are essentially sticking our tongues at God and telling Him that we don’t want His grace. (It is not possible to sin without knowing that you are sinning, by the way - one can make a grave error without realizing it, but to sin, one must have an understanding of what it means to sin.)

Btw, you just shot the idea of original sin down by this statement.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae;1866523:

Yes, since whenever we sin, we are essentially sticking our tongues at God and telling Him that we don’t want His grace. (It is not possible to sin without knowing that you are sinning, by the way - one can make a grave error without realizing it, but to sin, one must have an understanding of what it means to sin.)

Btw, you just shot the idea of original sin down by this statement.

Not really, since all Original Sin means is that we are not born with a relationship with God. We get our relationship with God when we get baptized. After that, it’s up to us, what we make of that relationship - good one, or bad one.

 

[jmcrae]

Hm, can’t say that I agree with all those good works, but yes, you have the main idea. Does one sin negate all the grace you accumulated?

Yes, although we can get it back with one good Confession.

Can God find more grace with you than someone else?

Yes - in theory, although, realistically, it’s much more likely that He will find more grace with someone else than with me.

 

[jmcrae]

I am determined to know nothing among you, save Christ and Him crusified.

Then why ask about miracles? You can see the crucifix in any Catholic Church; we certainly know Christ crucified - a lot of people consider that to be a bad thing.

 

[SoonerServant]

Yes, although we can get it back with one good Confession.

Yes.

One “good” confession. As though one is better than another. Wait, I’m not even going to argue that point because I don’t believe in confession.

So, let me get this strait. We build all this grace up with God, then we sin. So God takes the grace, puts it in some kind of grace account. Then, after we give one “good” confession we get it back? So, what’s the point of building up this grace?

 

[SoonerServant]

Then why ask about miracles? You can see the crucifix in any Catholic Church; we certainly know Christ crucified - a lot of people consider that to be a bad thing.

In other words, I don’t want to hear anymore explinations about Catholic doctrines cough heresy

 

[jmcrae]

One “good” confession. As though one is better than another. Wait, I’m not even going to argue that point because I don’t believe in confession.

James 5:16

So, let me get this strait. We build all this grace up with God, then we sin. So God takes the grace, puts it in some kind of grace account. Then, after we give one “good” confession we get it back? So, what’s the point of building up this grace?

So that we can fulfill our purpose, which is “to know, love, and obey God in this life, and be happy with Him in the next.” (Baltimore Catechism, 150)

 

[jmcrae]

In other words, I don’t want to hear anymore explinations about Catholic doctrines cough heresy

 

[SoonerServant]

James 5:16

So that we can fulfill our purpose, which is “to know, love, and obey God in this life, and be happy with Him in the next.” (Baltimore Catechism, 150)

Then by “Confession” you don’t mean to a priest?

 

[jmcrae]

Then by “Confession” you don’t mean to a priest?

Yes, I mean to a priest, or actually with a priest - the priest helps me confess my sins to God, and gives me the assurance of the forgiveness of my sins along with the Absolution. He receives the authority to give the Absolution through the Apostolic Succession because Jesus said to the Apostles, “whose sins you forgive are forgiven” - this authority was not given to lay people. (John 20:22-23)

James was writing to his priests; thus he says, “confess your sins to one another,” but we are all to confess our sins to the priests; not only the priests to each other.

 

[Church_Militant]

He asks for evidence from scripture and I give him that and history (Post 905 & 906) and he ignores it…there’s an honest opponent for ya…:whacky:

 

[john_ennis]

lol, I like how you say the “Catholic Church” decided all these things. As though no one else in the history of christianity has looked into it. If you’ll notice now, the Catholics referrence a lot of writings that many other christians wouldn’t even consider.(some of the ones named above) These books were set side by side with others and compared. They looked for the parallels and the differences. If something in one of them didn’t agree with the others, it was dismissed. It was a question of logic too. God didn’t give us brains just to take up space. In my experience, anyone who claimed to be a messenger of God used miraculous signs to display their authority. I have yet to see anything of the sort from the bishops or the Pope.

The Catholic Church settled the canon of Scripture by the beginning of the 5th century. To suggest that it was anything other than consensus about the Church’s authority which settled the matter…Well, can anybody really believe it was just a bunch of well-meaning folks who did this, infallibly? And all argument about the canon disappeared for a thousand years? (Is it just a coincidence that the argument only resurfaces at the same time that the Catholic Church’s authority is questioned, in the 16th century?)

And messengers of God–like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John…they could not be accepted as inspired writers unless they performed miraculous signs first?

Sure they can; all we need is Jesus’s nod toward them–and we got it, through His Church.

Peace.
John

 

[SoonerServant]

The Catholic Church settled the canon of Scripture by the beginning of the 5th century. To suggest that it was anything other than consensus about the Church’s authority which settled the matter…Well, can anybody really believe it was just a bunch of well-meaning folks who did this, infallibly? And all argument about the canon disappeared for a thousand years? (Is it just a coincidence that the argument only resurfaces at the same time that the Catholic Church’s authority is questioned, in the 16th century?)

And messengers of God–like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John…they could not be accepted as inspired writers unless they performed miraculous signs first?

Sure they can; all we need is Jesus’s nod toward them–and we got it, through His Church.

Peace.
John

We are talking about after Jesus left the earth. So, actually, the Apostles did use the gift of miracles to prove their authority.

 

[SoonerServant]

He asks for evidence from scripture and I give him that and history (Post 905 & 906) and he ignores it…there’s an honest opponent for ya…:whacky:

No, you showed me what the Catholic Church told you to show me. Just like every other Catholic I’ve talked to. In none of these scriptures does it say that one must spend any amount of time within in this state. So once again, show me in scripture where it states these rules of purgatory. Otherwise, I have no choice but to assume(like you have) that this place is simlpy a guess.