Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[kaycee]

Read Shakespeare and you’ll find lots of people “praying” to one another as they speak - do you think they were confused about what type of prayer was being used? We still have “lords” in English government - do you think that anyone, even here in America, thinks that the House of Lords means that English types worship many gods? Go back to the old form of marriage vows and you’ll find husband and wife swearing before God that “with my body I thee worship” Do you think that anybody back then was confused about the kind of worship being given?

I find this olde English argument not very relevant as the usage was among those still breathing.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,
Think about what you posted here…“they cannot claim that we WORSHIP Mary ABOVE God…” This is saying that you do worship Mary, albeit in a manner different from and subordinate to the worship you give to God. As I said in my previous post before, my using this anarchic English terminology you are helping to to perpetuate the claim that Catholics worship Mary in the manner that the word “worship” is commonly used today.
RR1213

We don’t. You Protestants have the habit of making false claims about Jesus Christ’s Catholic Church.

 

[rr1213]

Read Shakespeare and you’ll find lots of people “praying” to one another as they speak - do you think they were confused about what type of prayer was being used? We still have “lords” in English government - do you think that anyone, even here in America, thinks that the House of Lords means that English types worship many gods? Go back to the old form of marriage vows and you’ll find husband and wife swearing before God that “with my body I thee worship” Do you think that anybody back then was confused about the kind of worship being given?

Yes, that language is archaic and the Church’s continued use of it leads to misunderstandings. When you’re happy do you go around saying “my, I feel GAY this morning”?

 

[rr1213]

We don’t. You Protestants have the habit of making false claims about Jesus Christ’s Catholic Church.

Manny,
If you continue to post that you worship Mary don’t be surprised when Protestants take you at your word.
RR1213

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,
If you continue to post that you worship Mary don’t be surprised when Protestants take you at your word.
RR1213

I didn’t. I said we don’t worship Mary. This is exactly why I made this thread.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yes, that language is archaic and the Church’s continued use of it leads to misunderstandings. When you’re happy do you go around saying “my, I feel GAY this morning”?

I daresay if the Church updated their language merely for the benefit of outside observers, somebody would say, “A-ha! The Catholic Church DOES change!!”

 

[rr1213]

I daresay if the Church updated their language merely for the benefit of outside observers, somebody would say, “A-ha! The Catholic Church DOES change!!”

Yeah, it certainly makes sense to communicate using words that no longer mean what you are currently intending to convey. And Catholics complain that Protestants don’t understand them.

Maybe instead of going back to the Latin y’all should go back to the ancient Greek and Hebrew. That way your liturgy wouldn’t be understood by anyone other than scholars.

 

[rr1213]

I didn’t. I said we don’t worship Mary. This is exactly why I made this thread.

Yet you posted above that you don’t worship Mary above God, thereby suggesting that, in some sense, you do worship Mary…Manny, I believe you. I am suggesting that for ease of communication that you not use the word “worship” in relation to Mary because the meaning has changed and, by using the word in the old manner in which you intend, you contribute to the misconception of many Protestants that Catholics worship Mary.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yeah, it certainly makes sense to communicate using words that no longer mean what you are currently intending to convey. And Catholics complain that Protestants don’t understand them.

Well if they hadn’t revolted back in the 1500s they’d understand perfectly.

Maybe instead of going back to the Latin y’all should go back to the ancient Greek and Hebrew. That way your liturgy wouldn’t be understood by anyone other than scholars.

Oh sure, cause it’s all a big secret anyway.

 

[Atemi]

I never understand this. Why do Protestants especially Ex-Catholics persume to know Catholic Church doctrines and dogma, but they don’t really know it.

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.

It is not that Protestants believe that the RCC teaches that Catholics worship Mary, but that many Catholics end up doing exactly that anyway. This has nothing to do with knowing the doctrine of the RCC but just simple observance.

Please also note that I have had devout Catholics explain that they do indeed worship Mary, just that they do not worship her as they worship God.

It seems that many Catholics will argue that they do or do not worship Mary, depending on their mood, I guess.

1. They think think our doctrines are invented doctrines but they aren’t.

This also has nothing to do with RC doctrine. We all know very well that your church does not teach that they have invented their doctrines.

1. They think the whatever the Popes says is infallible, when in fact it that infallibility is that the Holy Spirit preserves the Pope from teaching error when speaking moral and faith teaching

Some Protestants think that, as do many Catholics.

Many, many people are still unsure about many of the complexities of Catholic doctrine…whether Catholic or not.

No need to knock Protestants for what many Catholics think as well.

1. That the sacrifice of the Mass is re-sacrifice when it isn’t. It is to make presence the sacrifice at the cross which transcends time itself.

When the RCC has taught that Christ is immolated on the altar by the hands of the priest, then these problems are bound to occur.

These are some false presumption of Protestants of what the Catholic Church supposedly believe.

Actually, just a couple.

There of course countless others, which they think we believe and professed.

I wish that Catholics would stop saying that God did not ordain the Reformation to correct the errors in Catholicism. None of our churches teach that.

Do you see the problem here?

…

 

[FrankLawrence]

They get bombarded with anti-Catholic messages from their pastors, their parents, their friends, the secular media, and sadly, much of the so-called “Christian” media.
Sadly also, it is in our fallen human nature to gleefully embrace slander or negativity against other people or other groups of people, so that we pridefully feel better about ourselves. This is a disordered state of mind, heart, and soul, and one which often can be automatic and therefore fall under the radar of conscience. It is thorough failure to love our neighbor as ourselves, or to love our enemies, if that is the case. While many Protestants, particularly in the evangelical sects, seem to be disgustingly guilty of this sin in their attitudes towards Catholics, can we honestly throw stones at them, without being hypocrites? How many of us would embrace any scandal we hear against Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, Martin Luther, our personal enemies, or any given Protestant denomination, without first researching the facts? Can we honestly say we would just dismiss allegations against them as possible hearsay or gossip? Or, would we pridefully share this news with others as if it was proven documented infallible fact, even though we haven’t personally done an ounce of genuine research on it? We need to be honest with God and ourselves about this, and confess and repent if need be.
What about with former Catholics? Well, casual Catholics are particularly vulnerable to the Evangelical Protestant conversion attempts, because first off, casual Catholics were already Baptised and therefore already have the Holy Spirit in them, pointing them to Christ, and secondly, casual Catholics have a trust in the Bible, since it is used in the Catholic Church. Then, the Evangelical protestant talks about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, something that does not seem to get nearly enough stress in the current C.C.D. curriculum, and then that casual Catholic starts to experience Jesus Christ in a whole new wonderful way. What they are experiencing is actually an awakening of their Baptismal grace, grace that SHOULD have been awakened in the Catholic Church with proper catechisis, but for whatever reason was not. Then, that former Catholic will understandably feel extreme disdain for the Church that, in their opinion, never truly showed them what it means to have a personal relationship with Christ. Since they never cared enough to learn their faith, then they’ll agree with the Protestant lies or misunderstandings about it, particularly the false allegation of placing traditions of man ahead of the Word of God, since that will seem to be what their experience in the Catholic Church was.
Nevertheless, we need to realize the following Scriptures:
“Blest are you when they insult you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me. Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is great and Heaven; they persecuted the prophets before you in the very same way.” - Matthew 5:11-12
“If they call the head of the house Beezebul how much more the members of his household!” - Matthew 10:25, in part.
“Indeed, you will be hated by all nations on my account.” -Matthew 24:10, in part.
“I consider the sufferings of the present to be as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed in us.” - Matthew 8:18

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yet you posted above that you don’t worship Mary above God, thereby suggesting that, in some sense, you do worship Mary…Manny, I believe you. I am suggesting that for ease of communication that you not use the word “worship” in relation to Mary because the meaning has changed and, by using the word in the old manner in which you intend, you contribute to the misconception of many Protestants that Catholics worship Mary.

What is better then? Say nothing. It’s already know that you protestants think we worship Mary. I’m here to tell you that we don’t.

We venerate the saints and Mary. I don’t think Protestants are stupid to tell the difference.

I’ll cite the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In communion with the holy Mother of God

2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the 689
only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our
filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus. 27

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and 494
maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son “who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties.”

28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his
mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the
way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to
the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the 970
working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this 512 prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly 2619 servant and through her for all human beings;29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

 

[kaycee]

Do you merely judge by appearance? How do you know that Catholic is praying to a statue.

I dont think he is praying to a statue. No protestant I know thinks that. We assume that the prayers would be to the saint that the statue represents.

Maybe that should be among the list of false Catholics beliefs about protestants.

It is irrelevant and a diversion to admonish me for not being able to read minds at any given moment. Catholics do pray to saints.

These are veneration. You need to understand what Catholic veneration to the saints. These aren’t worship that put saints and Mary above God.

Again, another Catholic misunderstanding. Protestants dont think you put Mary and the saints ahead of God. We think you are giving to the saints what is due only to God.

 

[MariaG]

Sometimes I think part of the problem is lack of clarity by the Catholic Church. For example, even though the English word “worship” has changed in meaning over the years, you’ll still find people even on this forum who insist on using the word “worship” in relation to Mary on the grounds that the word had a broader meaning in the past. The meaning is not the same in today’s world and Catholics who insist on continuing to say that they give “worship” to Mary (in the old sense of the word) have no one to blame but themselves when they are misunderstood by Protestants today.

I agree with you.

It drives me absolutely nuts when after a long and laborious discourse, some Catholic pops in on a thread and says,

“Well I worship Mary”

They are not being helpful, they are sowing confusion, and will be held accountable for their actions.

Just as I always say, “ask saints to pray for us” rather than “pray to the saints”.

Both may have the same meaning for a Catholic, but they do not have the same meaning for most non-Catholics. And even for those who understand the difference, it can still be uncomfortable.

Another example would be using the words “Devotion to Mary”. I know while I was a non-Catholic, I would do my “daily devotionals” and using “devotion” in conjunction with Mary just seemed wrong since MY devotions were solely dedicated to God.

There are different nuances to words, and this should be recognized in the common speech and usage of words of people, even while teaching the history of words, and not giving up our right to use these words in discourse intended for the edification of the members of the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mannyfit75]

Again, another Catholic misunderstanding. Protestants dont think you put Mary and the saints ahead of God. We think you are giving to the saints what is due only to God.

That is your point of view which is very wrong. That is where the problem is.

 

[mtr01]

Yeah, it certainly makes sense to communicate using words that no longer mean what you are currently intending to convey. And Catholics complain that Protestants don’t understand them.

Maybe instead of going back to the Latin y’all should go back to the ancient Greek and Hebrew. That way your liturgy wouldn’t be understood by anyone other than scholars.

Actually, even though you point was sarcastic, there is an element of truth in it. Word meanings constantly change in modern languages, but not in ecclesial Latin (or in this case Greek). In English, it would be more proper to talk of the distinction between adoration (reserved for God alone) and other forms of worship. Even Augustine in the 4th-5th century realized this issue when he wrote:

“For this is the worship which is due to the Divinity, or, to speak more accurately, to the Deity; and, to express this worship in a single word as there does not occur to me any Latin term sufficiently exact, I shall avail myself, whenever necessary, of a Greek word. Λατρεία, whenever it occurs in Scripture, is rendered by the word service. But that service which is due to men, and in reference to which the apostle writes that servants must be subject to their own masters, Ephesians 6:5 is usually designated by another word in Greek, whereas the service which is paid to God alone by worship, is always, or almost always, called λατρεία in the usage of those who wrote from the divine oracles.”

Thus, to this day, the Catholic Church still speaks of the latreia/dulia distinction as the best way to distinguish the two ideas.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think its also due the fact that Protestant is too modern rather than ancient form of Christian…

 

[cascherman]

Manny, I think its fairly obvious you may be trying to vent frustration towards protestants. Which wording like ‘the problem with…’ and ‘you protestants’. I think you have to understand that they think these things are the crux of Catholicism only out of ignorance, but you also have to understand any criticism or disagreement we should first assume is out of love. They constantly use phrasing like ‘we try to rescue catholics out of the controlling catholic church’.

They truly believe they are doing to the right thing.

What gets me is they constantly bring these things to the forefront and present them like they are the most important doctrine in Catholicism, when in reality if they ever actually went to mass they would realize WHOA, Catholics love Jesus Christ and center their lives around him.

 

[kaycee]

That is your point of view which is very wrong. That is where the problem is.

I think the biggest problem is most Catholics really do not know what they believe past a few major tenents when talking to protestants about Catholic doctrine.

Since most evangelicals actually know what and why they believe, most of the time in great detail, they tend to assume that Catholics know what their church teaches as well.

At least that was my experience for 27 years and I doubt my experience is in the minority.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<We understand the claim that you dont worship Mary and Saints and Dulia/Latria hair splitting.>>

Then Jesus Himself is guilty of splitting hairs, because in the Greek version of Matthew 4:10:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship [proskyneo] the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve [latrevo].

But later He said Luke 14:10

But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship [douleia] in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

So go argue with Him about His hair-splitting.

<<When we see candles lit with kneelers before statues of saints, parades with Mary atop a flowered float it certainly appears you worship saints. >>

God sees the heart, so the way it “appears” to you doesn’t really matter at all, now does it?

Besides, when I was a Baptist (before I got saved) we said prayers to pieces of cloth.