Why do Protestants refuse to pray for the departed (dead)?

[Kristin234]

Right. But in Christ is the point. Jesus harrowed hell–the dead are now under His authority. So “communicating” with the dead in Christ for the purposes of praying for them or in some other way that remains under Christ’s authority is not demonic.

Edwin

I never said I had a problem with praying for them. I believe I said that quite a few times. I said what I had a problem with is when I hear stories of people saying they had dead family members telling them to pray to them or to pray to them instead of praying to God. I have had people specifically say things like that before.

 

[SonCatcher]

I regard it as a form of necromancy and it scares me. To me I see it as you are communicating with the dead and I think that is demonic. I don’t have a problem with Catholics praying for the dead. My fiance’s entire family are devout Catholics and I have seen it many times and it does not bother me. What freaks me out is when I begin to hear stories of people saying that they saw a loved one’s spirit talking to them telling them to pray to them or telling them to pray to them and they will tell God what they want. I have heard a ton of stories like that.

This is off topic, but when Catholics use the term “pray” we do not mean “worship”. The original meaning of “pray” was “to ask” and we see it in plenty of older documents where one man would “pray” to another (both upstanding Christians, BTW) for something. (actually, “worship” didn’t originally mean “worship” either, but that’s way off topic).

So when you ask a “brother” or “sister” in Christ to pray to God on your behalf (in support for some trial you are facing), you are actually praying to him/her.

 

[SonCatcher]

They are dead to me. Alive in Christ but dead to me. The Bible even calls them the dead in Christ.

That’s a rather un-Christian position. Some charity, please. The “dead in Christ” are still your brothers and sisters. As such, they deserve your love (and Christ demands that you “love one another” - He doesn’t make any distinction on living in this world or the next). The language you use is that of shunning.

 

[Kristin234]

This is off topic, but when Catholics use the term “pray” we do not mean “worship”. The original meaning of “pray” was “to ask” and we see it in plenty of older documents where one man would “pray” to another (both upstanding Christians, BTW) for something. (actually, “worship” didn’t originally mean “worship” either, but that’s way off topic).

So when you ask a “brother” or “sister” in Christ to pray to God on your behalf (in support for some trial you are facing), you are actually praying to him/her.

I know that.

Once again, what bothers me is when people say they see these spirits and these spirits tell them to pray to them instead of to God. I believe that is demonic. Maybe you have never heard that but my future father in law apparently had that happen to him with his wife. He said he saw her and she told him she was okay and that she wanted him to pray to her instead of to God because she is with God in heaven and she will tell God everything. So he believes that it is okay to just pray to his deceased wife all day everyday and not pray to God. Actually, God is kind of out of the picture for him because all he does is focus on his wife. I have heard other people say and do the same thing.

 

[Kristin234]

That’s a rather un-Christian position. Some charity, please. The “dead in Christ” are still your brothers and sisters. As such, they deserve your love (and Christ demands that you “love one another” - He doesn’t make any distinction on living in this world or the next). The language you use is that of shunning.

They are dead to me. I can’t just go over their house and hang out with them. When someone dies what are they? Dead. How is that unChristian. Please do not assume I am shunning them or I do not love them when I said no such thing.

My future kids will never get to know their grandmother because she is dead. They won’t be able to talk to her, hug her, or visit her because she is dead. She is not alive on this earth anymore. Unless dead means a different word to you?

 

[Contarini]

I never said I had a problem with praying for them. I believe I said that quite a few times. I said what I had a problem with is when I hear stories of people saying they had dead family members telling them to pray to them or to pray to them instead of praying to God. I have had people specifically say things like that before.

Sorry–I read without care and thought you were speaking of dead people asking the living to pray for them.

An apparent apparition (redundant adjective?) of a dead relative who asked you to pray to him/her instead of to God would indeed be an object of deep suspicion for any orthodox Christian.

Edwin

 

[Kristin234]

Sorry–I read without care and thought you were speaking of dead people asking the living to pray for them.

An apparent apparition (redundant adjective?) of a dead relative who asked you to pray to him/her instead of to God would indeed be an object of deep suspicion for any orthodox Christian.

Edwin

No problem. That is why I said in those cases I believe it to be demonic

 

[SonCatcher]

They are dead to me. I can’t just go over their house and hang out with them. When someone dies what are they? Dead. How is that unChristian. Please do not assume I am shunning them or I do not love them when I said no such thing.

My future kids will never get to know their grandmother because she is dead. They won’t be able to talk to her, hug her, or visit her because she is dead. She is not alive on this earth anymore. Unless dead means a different word to you?

Apparently, “dead” does mean something quite different to me. Death, to the Christian, is birth into Eternal Life. I don’t know whether you have ever noticed, but most saints are remembered on the day they died to this life because that is the day they were “born” into their reward. This world is passing away - that is, dying. Why constrain yourself to a dying world?

When a believer “dies” he is not dead but alive in Christ. If we are attempting to be united with Him in this life, how much more perfectly are they united with Him? The more we succeed in uniting ourselves to Him, the more we find ourselves united to them, by consequence.

Your children will get to know their grandmother if you and the rest of the family tell them her stories. Then they will recognize her when they meet her in Heaven. They may well even find comfort (read: hugs) in those stories.

 

[colliric]

I know that.

Once again, what bothers me is when people say they see these spirits and these spirits tell them to pray to them instead of to God. I believe that is demonic. Maybe you have never heard that but my future father in law apparently had that happen to him with his wife. He said he saw her and she told him she was okay and that she wanted him to pray to her instead of to God because she is with God in heaven and she will tell God everything. So he believes that it is okay to just pray to his deceased wife all day everyday and not pray to God. Actually, God is kind of out of the picture for him because all he does is focus on his wife. I have heard other people say and do the same thing.

Your future father in law isn’t doing anything spiritually wrong. The way you interpreted it is what might be incorrect. Unless he specficially tells you the wife told him to pray to her “instead of praying to God”(which seems to be what you are interpreting has happened, but might not have been what he told you at all), you should give him the benifit of the doubt and not jump to that conclusion.

By telling you that his wife has spoken to him, he has let you into a part of his own private space and you should be respectfully understanding of it, rather than judgemental of him for telling you. At least he told you it was happening. This is a very common experience for people who are spiritual and who are in mourning, sometimes they feel the need to continue talking/praying to/with the person for a while(not through demonic/evil means like using a “medium”, but though a wholesome means just as if the person is “watching over them” from heaven), even if it’s just their spirit, One day he will move on somewhat(never entirly), and heck if he’s already choosen a new wife(your mother) then that’s probably happening. If you’ve ever seen Forrest Gump, that has a really great example of the kind of issues a person in mourning will face with a lover that they felt they had more to discuss with. If it helps him to dialog with his deceased wife, so long as her spirit is providing it in a loving, christian manner, it could be nessecerily helping him overcome his extreme feelings of physical loss.

He’s never going to forget his first wife(My dad didn’t either), and he feels he still had things to say to her that he never got to say while she was alive(My dad does too, but after 30 years eventually he let go a bit). Don’t get in his way by telling him “this that and the other, you should only be talking to God”, let him say what he feels he needs to say… she’ll hear him from heaven and as promised will present his pertitions to God, until the time comes for him to have recovered from his emotional losses.

So long as he doesn’t “get weird” like shun your mother in favour of his dead wife, then you shouldn’t be worried(Kind of like Ned Flanders in that episode of the Simpsons). If he does “get weird”(and I mean it’s no longer just prayers anymore), THEN you know you will need to tell him he has to let his first wife go now and leave her to heaven, so he can now focus on building a new family. Then you’ll have to keep telling him, and also praying for him. He has probably told you all about this because he knows he needs your support in understanding what to do when he finally decides he got to say what he REALLY wanted to.

 

[Kristin234]

Your future father in law isn’t doing anything spiritually wrong. The way you interpreted it is what might be incorrect. Unless he specficially tells you the wife told him to pray to her “instead of praying to God”(which seems to be what you are interpreting has happened, but might not have been what he told you at all), you should give him the benifit of the doubt and not jump to that conclusion.

If I interpreted it that way I would have said that. He did specifically tell me that she said that. Why else would I have written that down in my post if he didn’t? I also specifically said that HE is the one who told me the story. I did not assume anything nor did I jump into conclusions. There is something wrong with a spirit telling you not to pray to God but to pray to that spirit instead. He is doing something spiritually wrong by listening to that spirit and doing what it says.

By the way, he’s not remarried. She passed away a few months ago and he is my future father in law not my future father.

 

[Kristin234]

Apparently, “dead” does mean something quite different to me. Death, to the Christian, is birth into Eternal Life. I don’t know whether you have ever noticed, but most saints are remembered on the day they died to this life because that is the day they were “born” into their reward. This world is passing away - that is, dying. Why constrain yourself to a dying world?

When a believer “dies” he is not dead but alive in Christ. If we are attempting to be united with Him in this life, how much more perfectly are they united with Him? The more we succeed in uniting ourselves to Him, the more we find ourselves united to them, by consequence.

Your children will get to know their grandmother if you and the rest of the family tell them her stories. Then they will recognize her when they meet her in Heaven. They may well even find comfort (read: hugs) in those stories.

I feel like everyone here reads my post and ignores what I say and writes what they think I said.

There are two deaths. Physical death and eternal death. I am talking physically dead. I never once said anything about eternal death or life. That is why I say my kids will never be able to talk to her, hug her, or visit her. When I say they are dead to me I mean they are physically dead to me. When a believer dies they die PHYSICALLY but they live eternally. When people ask me if my grandmother is alive what is the appropriate answer? She died 10 years ago. Yes she was a believer and she is in heaven alive, but physically she did indeed die 10 years ago. What is wrong with saying that person is dead?

 

[JustaServant]

In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown.
To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself. Doubt that? Just read the Old Testament for yourself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the **God of the Living, not of the dead. **Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’.
Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again.
The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit.
Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us.
They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth.
Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet. God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

 

[SonCatcher]

I feel like everyone here reads my post and ignores what I say and writes what they think I said.

There are two deaths. Physical death and eternal death. I am talking physically dead. I never once said anything about eternal death or life. That is why I say my kids will never be able to talk to her, hug her, or visit her. When I say they are dead to me I mean they are physically dead to me. When a believer dies they die PHYSICALLY but they live eternally. When people ask me if my grandmother is alive what is the appropriate answer? She died 10 years ago. Yes she was a believer and she is in heaven alive, but physically she did indeed die 10 years ago. What is wrong with saying that person is dead?

It is not wrong to use such terms but it is wrong to attempt to exclude them from worship because they have died. There is one Church and all believers, living or dead, are members thereof. When we worship God, we should not consider our worship private but in community with all believers, including those who have already entered the Heavenly Kingdom. (There is indeed a private aspect in that another person’s worship cannot replace our own but we should always be mindful of those who share faith and join in solidarity with them).

 

[Kristin234]

It is not wrong to use such terms but it is wrong to attempt to exclude them from worship because they have died. There is one Church and all believers, living or dead, are members thereof. When we worship God, we should not consider our worship private but in community with all believers, including those who have already entered the Heavenly Kingdom. (There is indeed a private aspect in that another person’s worship cannot replace our own but we should always be mindful of those who share faith and join in solidarity with them).

Once again, I never said I excluded them from worship. All I said is that they are physically dead to me. I know that they are most definitely worshiping in heaven. I never denied that. I also know that they are alive in heaven even though they are physically dead. I also never denied that. The only thing I said is I believe it to be demonic when a spirit tells someone to pray to them and not to God, like in my future father in law’s case.

This whole thing is being blow out of proportion and people are assuming I am saying/believing in things I never even claimed.

 

[stewstew03]

They are dead to me… Dead… Please do not assume… I do not love them when I said no such thing.

I understand your definition of “dead” (basically, a corpse) but I’m having trouble understanding your definition of love. How do you, Kristin234, love someone that is dead (i.e., a corpse)?

 

[stewstew03]

I know that they are most definitely worshiping in heaven…

Interesting. How do you know?

 

[AbideWithMe]

I understand your definition of “dead” (basically, a corpse) but I’m having trouble understanding your definition of love. How do you, Kristin234, love someone that is dead (i.e., a corpse)?

I would guess that she loves them the same way you do–she believes people are more than their physical body.

 

[AbideWithMe]

In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown.
To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself. Doubt that? Just read the Old Testament for yourself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the **God of the Living, not of the dead. **Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’.
Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again.
The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit.
Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us.
They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth.
Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet. God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.

Well said.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Why do Protestants refuse to pray for the departed (dead)?

When my step-father died in the ICU the hospital chaplain who I assume to be Protestant by his dress (suit and tie) refused to pray for his soul.

It hurt me and came across as uncaring.

Do Protestants beleive that the soul at death instantly shoots off to heaven or hell, and our prayers cannot change the matter?

I know that Protestants do not beleive in the existence of purgatory, so they just stop praying?

Just comes across as callous to me.

Andrew, did the hospital chaplain actually refuse a request from someone, like a family member?

 

[Jeff77]

Gnuss does the ELCA pray for the departed? Does the LCMS, they despite the Evangelical in the name don’t come accross as typical Evangelicals.

The LCMS doesn’t pray for the departed. I don’t remember the exact reason why, but would happily ask my pastor.