Why do Protestants reject the Real Presence?

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Gee why did they say that?? Because he was inferring cannabalism.

Yeah Jesus knew exactly what he was saying they just weren’t getting it. So he says how about if you see me ascend to Heaven. Will you believe then?

BINGO. Wake up people. I’m not telling you to take a bite out of my arm.

And if you call yourself a disciple of Christ, and believe that anything is possible with God, believe that God is trustworthy and believe His words then, yes, even when you don’t fully understand what Christ is telling you you still follow Him and believe in Him. That’s what faith is.

Notice even after Jesus clarified his teaching they still left. WHY. Because they didn’t believe. that’s why GOD didn’t send them to Jesus.

Yes, the Father had brought a hardening on the hearts of the Jews, that is those in religious authority. But these who walked away were not them. They were “disciples”. They had come to Him under the permission of the Father. They just refused to believe His words. They made a choice.

Provoke controversy for what?? By giving them a teaching they couldn’t possibly live up to. Remember these were law abiding Jews. He was telling them something that was forbidden by law. But they weren’t looking beyond it to the real meaning. We have the benefit of knowing the outcome. They didn’t.

Again, they had seen the signs He did. They had ample “proof” that Jesus was the awaited Messiah. Outcome is irrelevant. They were more caught up with their preconceived notions of the Messiah and the coming Kingdom.

Pay attention to what is being said. They say we have believed. The Jews didn’t believe so they couldn’t understand Jesus teaching. Why would Jesus try to drive them away purposely? You make no sense whatsover.

One, God puts us believers to the test all the time. He has every right to. It wasn’t about “driving people away”, it was about seeing if they truly trusted Him.

Oh cut it with the original greek. Tell me this Brother. Have you chopped off your hands and gouged out your eyes yet?? I know they have sinned. Matter of fact. Go back and look at the greek on that one. The words literally mean to chop off and gouge respectively. Just as graphic as the gnawing. So have you?? I would say no. Why haven’t you. Jesus says chop your hand off and gouge your eyes out if they cause you to sin. It’s better for one body part to go to hell than the whole body. Talk about graphic. So I’ll ask again Have you done it yet? NO WHY. Because we both know he was speaking figuratively. Driving home the point of how HE feels about sin. No different here. All figurative language.

That passage in Matthew is an allegory. We know that Jesus would never want us to commit self-mutilation.

We know that the teachings in John 6 are more than just figurative language because we also have the teachings of the Apostles, the Didache, and the writings of the early Church Fathers such as St. Justin Martyr who answered the same allegations of cannibalism that the Christians in Rome were being charged with under the Roman emperor Titus.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.

St. Justin Martyr- First Apology c. 130 a.d.

[CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)](St Justin’s First Apology)

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

OK so go get a Lamb and eat it. The Apostles didn’t eat Jesus after he was sacrificed. They buried HIM. This again makes no sense and is a useless argument. Why didn’t Jesus clarify this for us and say from now on I am the lamb you are eating?

It is the verse your entire arguement hinges on. “The flesh is of no avail…” The flesh and blood that we consume is not Jesus’ human, earthly flesh, but His glorified flesh. Glorified in and by the Holy Spirit. In, and only in, the Eucharist we are united to Christ. We ‘receive’ Christ. He makes His dwelling in us. And in and by the Spirit we are raised to divine life with Him. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. To renew our Covenant with Him began at our baptism we, like those pilgrim Israelites, eat the Pachal Lamb. But is is no mere animal but Jesus Himself who gave himself to the Father as the one pure and ETERNAL sacrifice.

SO. We offer thanksgiving everytime before we eat. Again a useless argument.

And so do I. But this is different.

We’re not Jewish. Why would we be given a Jewish custom?

If we are brothers of Christ, sons in the Son and brothers of Mary, then I say we are Jewish. We are children of Abraham, children of Adam, children of God. Jesus said Himself, “Not a letter, nor not even the smallest part of the letter, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

Go check the Greek word for remembrance. You’ll see that the corresponding word means memorial. The Lord’s Supper is a memorial for Jesus. When we eat the bread and drink the wine we are to rememeber HIM. Not continually sacrifice HIM. The sacrifice is over.

Your interpretation, which has been one voiced by protestants for years, is mistaken.

The prohet Malachi prophesized " For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts."(Mal 1:11)

That “one pure offering” is Christ uniting His sacrifice to His Body, that is the Church, through the bread and wine to the Father in the Spirit.

That’s not what he is saying. The Corinthians were getting drunk. They used the Lord’s supper as an excuse to consume large quantities of wine. This is the unworthy manner. They were also keeping out the poor people from worshipping with them and participating in the Lord’s Supper. This is what Paul is referring to. They got sick because GOD punished them and rightfully so.

Just a symbol?? Hardly JUST a symbol. It only represents the sacrifice our great Savior made for us.

PEACE

It is exactly what Paul was saying. I pray that the Spirit may give you the eyes to see it.

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” (1 Cor. 10:16-17)

The early Christians did not just partake in the bread and wine that is the memorial of the Body and Blood of Christ. Paul says here that they are partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ itself.

You may quite possibly derive your interpretation from the scripture. But to do that and deny the Real Presence is to place yourself under the judgement of those like Peter, Paul, Justin, Clement, and others who were closer to the time of Jesus and who knew better.

 

[paarsurrey]

We reject the idea of the real presence in Communion because it is not Scriptural. No Bible passage says that ellemnts turn into the real thing. When Jesus said in John 6 to and drink he did not mean to literally mean eat His flesh and drink His real blood. These terms are the same as believe. They are figures of speach.

Hi

I think the Protestants are right in this issue, and the Catholics only take a figure of speech to be real without any concrete proof with them, just an exaggeration as is usual with them.

Thanks

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Hi

I think the Protestants are right in this issue, and the Catholics only take a figure of speech to be real without any concrete proof with them, just an exaggeration as is usual with them.

Thanks

Again…

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone."

St. Justin Martyr- First Apology c. 130 a.d.

 

[super64]

Joh 6:52 (6:53) The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 (6:54) Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
Joh 6:54 (6:55) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Joh 6:55 (6:56) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 (6:57) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
Joh 6:57 (6:58) As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 (6:59) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 (6:60) These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.
Joh 6:60 (6:61) Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 (6:62) But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
Joh 6:62 (6:63) If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 (6:64) It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 (6:65) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him.
Joh 6:65 (6:66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
Joh 6:66 (6:67) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.

Here’s a thought:
Our bodies are united to our souls, and without the soul we are just flesh, flesh that will rot away. Without the Holy Spirit in our souls we are not living beings

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

. We can not seperate our souls from our bodies permently, even at death we know that both will be united on judgement day again. Christ being fully man and fully Divine is the perfect unity of spirit and flesh. It is the Spirit of God that makes the flesh Sacramental, without the Spirit it is just flesh. Therefore we can not “pull” Jesus apart and only adhere to His Spirit, we must accept his flesh too, for they are one. The Greek word used in John 6:53 for “eat” meant to “gnaw or chew”.

Would Jesus have told the Jews to disobey Mosiac Law with regards to the eating human flesh and drinking of blood? Yes! Because it is not dead flesh but the living body of Christ and as for the blood…well if you wish to establish a new Covenant you’re going to have to cut people off of the old Covenant and that would do it. I guess that’s what they call a leap of faith.

Just some thoughts…
Peace to all,

Scott