Why do Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

[c659smith]

Moondweller

What I believe you are doing is picking and choosing your words from the Bible that would choose your life style and not follow Christ and carry your cross as he did.

The Apostles Creed from the 1st century and voted on by the 12 and containing what Christian beliefs are state "He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

The bible then proceeds how and by what he will judge and that is deeds.

Those not in the book of life will be tossed into the fiery lake of hell.

Jesus himself in the bible stated what you do onto others you do unto me.

when I was hungry you fed me

when I was naked you clothed me.

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these.

When Jesus washed the Apostles feet at the Last Supper what was he saying and instructing the Apostles to do faith or works?

what did he say to Peter when Peter said you will never wash my feet.

So that what I have done for you you should also do.

Faith and Works goes hand in hand.

With faith and belief but no works there is an empty faith a shell for one is not living in Christ and Christ within them

With works alone there and no faith they are empty and without soul.

For Jesus said also when you do works do not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing, do not boast.

The Protestants believe in sola scripture and one is saved by faith alone. This is not what the bible teaches. One must read the bible as a whole not one verse or chapter.

Jesus said to the rich man whom had faith in Christ and asked what I must do to get to heaven. Jesus stated it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

Why because the works of the rich man has two ends one to make more money and then to follow Christ and continue his works. Serving two Gods

Moon dweller you are right in one sense that I rely on Christs Mercy not Judgement as if I was judged before a perfect God I would fail and would surely go to Hell.

However as a Catholic I do perform or try to perform works for Jesus as I try to walk with him not that I will gain a reward or favor over another but because this is what Jesus has demanded of us.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller

What I believe you are doing is picking and choosing your words from the Bible that would choose your life style and not follow Christ and carry your cross as he did.

Has nothing to do with my “lifestyle.” And as for crosses, there’s only one through which God saved me, justified me, reconciled me to Himself and forgave ALL my sins. And that of course is the cross of Christ. Taking up my cross has to do with following Him (discipleship), but such a cross does not, cannot, nor ever will, save me, justify me, reconcile me to God, or forgive any of my sins.

The Apostles Creed from the 1st century and voted on by the 12 and containing what Christian beliefs are state "He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

That’s the physically living and the dead who died in their sins because they did not believe (Jn. 8:24). But of those who do believe Christ Himself said, “does NOT come into judgment, but has passed out of death into LIFE” (Jn. 5:24; cf. Rom. 8:1).

Get that? They’ve passed out of death into LIFE. They do not come into judgment because Christ was judged in their stead and in Him (resurrected) they now have LIFE (eternal). Contrasted with those mentioned in Rev. 20:12 identified as “the dead.”

I don’t pick and choose words (or passages) from the Bible, I just don’t ignore the passages that explain salvation through faith in Christ alone. And those glorious passages I believe.

 

[c659smith]

Again you take a sentence out of romans and to not continue to read.

Lets play your game

If I have faith in Christ but:

Romans 8.7

live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. This takes action on your part through the Holy Spirit

Again deeds and works are one. Do you want the webster version.

I can accept Jesus as my savior, I can accept the Holy Spirit, I can have 100% love of Christ but can decide to commit adultery, murder, and greed because I felt like it. These are deed and very bad works.

remember when Romans and the author through the holy spirit and Christ, what was being discussed . the christians were being slaughtered, martyred

For your sake we are being slain all day
WE ARE LOOKED UPON AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.

and 17 same chapter
if only we suffer with him so that we may be glorifed with him.

Revelation

When you discuss revelations the goats and sheep shall be divided

Those that live through the end times and the raising of the dead as we shall be raised from the grave and reunited with our bodies. In no place except revelation does it come to pass that our bodies will be resurrected.

As far as judgement There is no argument here we will be seperated as the sheep and the goats before the judgement. BUT STILL SOME BEING JUDGED SHALL BE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE.

 

[po18guy]

Well, the most obvious answer here is that Jesus Christ and the church of Jesus Christ are separate entities.

Only if you separate the head from the body.

Of course if I wanted to be provocative I could ask why you insist that only your denomination is the church of Jesus Christ?

Well, it is the one “denomination” which exists today as it has always, by the laying on of hands, the “handing on” of its Traditions and teaching authority.

My offer to Evangelicals stands: a FREE copy of Mark P. Shea’s This Is My Body. It is his personal testimony of searching scripture and discovering Christ is with us, even to the end of the age, in the Eucharist.

 

[papaltruth]

I have a question for Protestants, why do you separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

It is said: “Evangelical Protestants believe in Jesus Christ, while Catholics believe in the Church.”

QUOTE]

I believe the point is that Catholics are so wrapped up in rituals and everything is repetitive, they fail to have a personal relationship with Christ. Everything from the opening prayer to the benediction is laid out and read from. There’s nothing personal about it.

Protestants (would) and Catholics (might not agree that Protestants are) though would agree that the body of Christ is the church.

As for the cute little saying, I haven’t personally heard it.

 

[moondweller]

Again you take a sentence out of romans and to not continue to read.

Lets play your game

If I have faith in Christ but:

Romans 8.7

live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. This takes action on your part through the Holy Spirit

Now let’s go on:Rom 8:8-9 "…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."Yes He does, forever, in fact. Promised by Christ Himself (Jn. 14:16-17). Even “sealed” in/by Him until the day of my body’s redemption (Eph. 1:30; 4:30) :extrahappy:"But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.Maybe that’s your problem. I don’t know. I’m just saying… The passages on salvation don’t seem to resonate with you. That is a problem. You’re always drawn to the passage relating to judgment and condemnation. Passages which refer to unbelievers.

Paul goes on to say:Rom 8:10 "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."That’s His imputed righteousness for all who have believed (2 Cor. 5:21). But Paul gives hope for this yet unredeemed body of mine, too. He goes on to say:Rom 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"You see when God saved me through faith in Christ alone, He saved ALL of me: body, soul and spirithil 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."And the Apostle John writes:1 John 3:1-3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and {such} we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.You don’t seem to have this hope nor understand this Holy Spirit revealed, glorious identity.

Paul concurs with John:Col 3:3-4 "For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."The Word of God is consistent when speaking about believers. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the rest reveal the same message of promised glory for those who have believed. And it begins with turning from unbelief to humbly believing in Christ alone. It’s all of GRACE because it’s rooted in the cross. His cross. No other cross has the power.

 

[paarsurrey]

Surely you agree that Christ will come again to judge the Living and the Dead.

Hi

Any idea **when he will come; date, month, year **?

May be he has already come and one doesn’t recognize him.

Please

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

Moondweller

but you keep as I stated going from book to book pulling sentences not chapters and what the chapter means. Verse is part of the story but not the main idea within those chapters and books. Stick with one book and we will see what gives, where it leads.

.
The slogan that we are justified by "faith alone,“faith alone” only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected. This is a burr under the saddle for you, for, if you wanted to use terms the way the Bible does, you need to give up this idea…

James views faith as good thing (“you do well,” v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26).

here below you refused to answer what this states

live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. Well this takes an effort on your part and if I have an enormous faith but cannot repent (turn away from sin) Which takes action on your part through the Holy Spirit then your faith is for not.
Again you are removing words or ignoring them as though they do not exist

You see what you are reading is a description of what salvation was before Christ was crucified and died for our sins. At that time people lived by the Law and the Law was all we had. But the Law was not good enough because we could not follow the Law.esspecially up to God’s standard which of course is perfection so we were condemned to death. What we paid for not following the law up to God’s Standard.

We did not have the Spirit. The Spirit did not show itself till Jesus’s Baptism and definitely was not given to man till after the resurrection and was given during Jesus’s Ascension when was given to the Apostles as tongues of fire.

Now with that being said let’s reinterate what is being said that by us being in Christ and Christ in us and filled with the Holy Spirit we must follow Jesus’s teachings and law and that which is his greatest commandment and that is to love one another (a deed) as ourselves, to love our enemies(a deed), and to follow his instrructions on feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, ect… This all takes work and is called works on our part.

You see these are deeds not that are going to get us to heaven alone as deeds alone do not save us.

Faith alone does not save us as without these deeds and loving one another as that type of faith is empty. This is Christ’s teaching and law we are not in Christ and Christ is not in us if we do not follow his teachings. For you knocked on the door and I said to go away I do not know you.

How does Christs not know us.
when I was hungry you did not clothed me,
when I was imprisoned you did not visit me, etc…

what you do onto them you do onto me…

My friend these are works and without works faith is empty.

Jesus in washing the Apostles feet on Holy Thursday.

Peter said no you will never wash my feet.

Jesus answered : If I do not wash your feet you are not one of my people.

After washing their feet Jesus said do you understand what I have done for you?

Now you should wash eachothers feet. I have done this as an example for you to follow.

Again I repeat If I do not wash your feet you are not one of my people. I have done this as an example for you to follow.

Jesus was a Rabbi/teacher showing us how to be in him and him in us.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller

but you keep as I stated going from book to book pulling sentences not chapters and what the chapter means. Verse is part of the story but not the main idea within those chapters and books. Stick with one book and we will see what gives, where it leads.

You’re the one who quoted Rom. 8:7 by itself. I took it further and explained what Paul was teaching all the way through verse eleven. Then I quoted other teachings of Paul in other books to show he was consistent in his teaching. Even John concurred with him, as I demonstrated.

No Mr. Smith, I handled the Word of God accurately. The problem doesn’t lie with my handling of it, but your believing it. And that’s the difference between you and me.

 

[c659smith]

Moondweller

I am not saying that you have not quoted the words of the bible properly but what you are quoting there is nothing to defend your faith alone philosphy. That you do not complete the chapters where faith is spoken for salvation and the below areas prove that.

Here are the items where in Scripture I have quoted scripture as it comes to faith with works. You go right over these with some mombo Jumbo that makes no sense when place as a whole. Please answer or dispute these sections of scripture and your idea of faith alone.

The slogan that we are justified by "faith alone,“faith alone” only appears once in the Bible—in James 2:24—where it is rejected. This is a burr under the saddle for you, for, if you wanted to use terms the way the Bible does, you need to give up this idea

James views faith as good thing (“you do well,” v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26).

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these

Jesus’s teachings and his law and which is his greatest commandment and that is to love one another (a deed) as ourselves, to love our enemies(a deed), and to follow his instructions on feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, ect… This all takes work and is called works on our part.

Jesus in washing the Apostles feet on Holy Thursday.

Peter said no you will never wash my feet.

Jesus answered : If I do not wash your feet you are not one of my people.

After washing their feet Jesus said do you understand what I have done for you?

Now you should wash each others feet. I have done this as an example for you to follow.

You see these are deeds not that are going to get us to heaven alone as deeds alone do not save us.

Faith alone does not save us as without these deeds and loving one another as that type of faith is empty. This is Christ’s teaching and law we are not in Christ and Christ is not in us if we do not follow his teachings.

For you knocked on the door and I said to go away I do not know you.

How does Christs not know us.

when I was hungry you did not clothed me,

when I was imprisoned you did not visit me, etc…

what you do onto them you do onto me…

Here below are the scriptures you sent to me last , I guess to prove your case of faith aline and I do not see where what you wrote has to do with faith alone salvation.

You’re the one who quoted Rom. 8:7 by itself. I took it further and explained what Paul was teaching all the way through verse eleven. Then I quoted other teachings of Paul in other books to show he was consistent in his teaching. Even John concurred with him, as I demonstrated. not true

***But you see in John chapter 14 p 7 if you read on says
In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these

You see youi do not continue the story.***
Paul goes on to say:
Rom 8:10 “If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”

But what gives you righteousness. surely not faith alone I do not see that anywhere --righteousness = faith alone–do You?

"But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

What does this have to do with faith alone? I do not get it. You see something here that is not wriiten?

follow Jesus’s teachings and law and that which is his greatest commandment and that is to love one another (a deed) as ourselves, to love our enemies(a deed), and to follow his instrructions on feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, ect… This all takes work and is called works on our part.

Do you ignore this teaching by Christ?

For you knocked on the door and I said to go away I do not know you.

How does Christs not know us.
when I was hungry you did not clothed me,
when I was imprisoned you did not visit me, etc…

Why did Jesus say to do these deeds and ask us to follow If I do not have to as long as I have faith.

what you do onto them you do onto me…

Do you deny this is Christs teaching

Jesus in washing the Apostles feet on Holy Thursday.

Peter said no you will never wash my feet.

Jesus answered : If I do not wash your feet you are not one of my people.

Do you deny this is Christs teaching?

This is what I mean when I say Faith alone is picking and choosing what you want out of the Bible but not what it says.

I have shown you many ways the Apostles have spoken about deeds and have shown you many deeds Christ had taught the Apostles and the multitudes to do if you are to follow him.

Sorry but you are grasping at straws and denying the full word of Christ…

.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller

I am not saying that you have not quoted the words of the bible properly but what you are quoting there is nothing to defend your faith alone philosphy. That you do not complete the chapters where faith is spoken for salvation and the below areas prove that.

Oh, I’ve proven it Mr. Smith. Rather not I but Jesus, Paul, John, Jude and Peter. Through them God has testified concerning His Son alone, and I’ve believed Him.1 John 5:9-11 "If we receive the testimony of men (which is what you have done), the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself (the testimony does not seem to be in you);** the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar**, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.As I said, Mr. Smith, the difference between you and me is who we’ve believed concerning the Son and what He’s done (alone) on our behalf.

 

[BCPoulsen]

It’s really quite ingenious; Convince the masses that salvation is available only through your organization and that questioning that authority places one’s salvation in jeapardy. A great formula for obtaining and maintaining earthly power.

The Savior of mankind was hijacked and has been held hostage for centuries (figuratively speaking of course). Anyone who tries to rescue him is demonized and labeled a heretic.

Gratefully there have been good, honest people within the Catholic Church who have accomplished remarkable things. Thanks to the diligent efforts of those who compiled and translated the sacred records that we now call the New Testament, we know from where our salvation truly comes. Several passages make it clear that we must look to Jesus Christ for salvation - not the church.

The Apostle Peter left no question on the issue. When he was approached by Jewish leaders and asked about the source of power by which he had healed a crippled man, he answered in no uncertain terms:

*“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.” *

“This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.”

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”(Acts 4:10-12)

These verses are also notable because Peter clarifies another issue that would become a source of confusion - the meaning of the stone/rock upon which the Church was built.

Those who sincerely seek to know their maker and to do His will understand the dangers of placing anything above God the Father or His Son Jesus Christ. They are also able to appreciate the good that comes through the Catholic Church without being blinded by those intent on maintaining power.

 

[c659smith]

Moon dweller,

Lets do it this way as what you are saying is not proving your case for faith alone. Show me where in your last statement in the bible it states this?
Yes, I do apparently believe more in the testomy of Jesus Christ than you for I do not see faith alone anywhere in the bible.

How would you decipher this statement by Jesus.

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these.

Now do not be a chicken, is this Jesus’s testimony?

Is he talking about faith and works going hand in hand or to you deny testimony.

My bet is you will not directly answer this question concerning the above scripture as it puts a wrinkle in your ointment.

 

[moondweller]

Moon dweller, How would you decipher this statement by Jesus.

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these.

My bet is you will not directly answer this question concerning the above scripture as it puts a wrinkle in your ointment.

First of all, Jesus did not say this in the context of performing works to contribute to their being saved.

Now Jesus qualified the reason those who believe in Him would do “greater” works was that He would go to the Father. As you read further in the chapter, once He goes to the Father He asks the Father, and He sends the Holy Spirit who will empower them (the paracletos, one called alongside to help).

Now Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. His earthly ministry was restricted to a certain people and nation, and He never traveled beyond the borders of that nation (except as an infant when He was taken down to Egypt to escape death). That was the extent of the borders of His ministry (Matt. 15:24).

But Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes He (not “it”) would convict the “world” of sin, righteousness and judgment (Jn. 16:8). IOW, the ministry of the Holy Spirit would be worldwide. So “greater” works is not restricted to the signs (miracles) Jesus wrought in the days of His earthly ministry, but greater in extent: i.e., worldwide.

But “greater” also in the sense that through the gospel message of the cross and His bodily resurrection and ascension, belief would result in a sinner’s eternal salvation: forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to God, justification, sanctification in Christ, eternal life, etc… This too would occur worldwide.

Is he talking about faith and works going hand in hand or do you deny testimony.

I never said faith and works don’t go “hand in hand.” My disagreement is that works and salvation do. One is saved, by God, through faith alone. Certainly works may follow, but those works contribute nothing to, nor determine, one’s salvation.

Mr. Smith, Paul wrote to the believers in the region of Galatia that “before faith came” we (Jews) were kept in custody under law, being shut up to “the faith” which was “later to be revealed” (Gal. 3:23, 1400 years later, in fact). He goes on to say that the Law served as their “tutor” (child-conductor) to lead them to Christ that they might be justified “BY FAITH”.

And now that “FAITH has come” they were no longer under a tutor (a child-conductor), but through faith in Christ are now considered by the Father adult members of the family . Through faith in Christ alone they went from the place of “servants” under the Law to the place of “sons of God in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:26; read Gal. 3:23-29 - 4:-5 for the full context).

So the purpose of the Law was not to save them, but to lead them to “the faith” at the time of Messiah’s arrival. “The faith” through which God would then save them.

Now if the Jews who were under the Law could not be saved by works of that Law, then neither could the Gentiles who were never under that covenant of Law in the first place. But it is revealed that both Jews and Gentiles are (“now that faith has come”) saved through faith in Christ alone.

However, we do read in the N.T. that all believers (the saved) are now under the “law of Christ”:Gal. 6:2 “Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ,” (cf. 1 Cor. 9:21).This would be an act of love toward fellow believers, fulfilling the commandment Christ left with His Apostles:John 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."But Paul is not teaching that believers are saved based on this law. He presented this basic principle:Gal. 3:21b "For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."The “law of Christ,” with its precepts of righteous living and love for the brethren are made possible by the indwelling Spirit who only the saved possess. The “law of Christ” is to be the “rule of life” for all the saved, but its not a “law” through which they are saved. All believers are under the New Covenant Christ Himself mediated by His blood. The assurance and grace in which all believers now “stand” (Rom. 5:1-2).

Faith and works certainly go together, but salvation (even justification) occurs completely apart from works being imparted as a free gift resulting from faith in Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8-9) - whether they be works of the “Law of Moses” or the “Law of Christ.” It is divinely revealed that God saves men only by grace “through faith,” never by works of law (any law).

 

[c659smith]

Moondweller,

I won that bet you could not find me a direct statement just as this that you are saved by faith alone.

Your statement starts and continues with conjecture and your definitions of what you think.

I give you direct testimony out of the bible.

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these

and you give me back mumbo jumbo.

I don’t care what you think.

Show me a direct line in the Bible where you are saved by faith alone?
These two words are never put together except by Martin Luther because he felt like it.

He was no prophet or Apostle

You cannot do it because it doe not exist.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

I won that bet you could not find me a direct statement just as this that you are saved by faith alone.

Your bet was that I would not give you an answer to what “greater works” meant. I did.

Your statement starts and continues with conjecture and your definitions of what you think.

You asked and I provided.

I give you direct testimony out of the bible.

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these

He doesn’t say greater works FOR salvation.

and you give me back mumbo jumbo.

1 Cor 1:23 "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

I don’t care what you think.

Then why discuss anything with me?

Show me a direct line in the Bible where you are saved by faith alone?

Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Really can’t get any clearer than that Mr. Smith. :tiphat:

 

[c659smith]

Moondweller

In John chapter 14 p 12
Jesus states Amen amen I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do and still do greater ones than these

This above once again is not conjecture it comes right out of the bible even the King James version.

I never said Works will get you into heaven nor does the Catholic Church believe that.

What the Catholic Church believes is that with faith there is works which is exactly what the scripture states directly out of the bible states.

This is how you are losing the bet you cannot explain this simple sentence to me in the scripture.

For with faith without works = faith is empty as it is not a question if there will be works but that there will be

Whoever believes in me == faith = is God (Jesus) was born, died, and ressurected on the 3rd day, ascended into heaven. Is the only way to the Father

Will do works === not may or not could be but the key word here is will

Yes righteosness but not necessarily salvation through faith

Many many people and prophets were righteous throughout the bible but it did not get them into heaven.

Even the rich man asking Jesus what he could do to get into heaven had faith and may have been righteous but Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

You tell me why? Why is it hard for a rich man to get into Heaven?

Right does not make might.

 

[gcnuss]

c659smith:

Show me a direct line in the Bible where you are saved by faith alone?
These two words are never put together except by Martin Luther because he felt like it.

Actually, Luther didn’t exactly mean what you interpret “faith alone” to mean.

Try this, from Luther’s Smalcald Articles:

Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1, 31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

[Emphasis added]

It is faith that saves, not good works. However, saving faith must be true faith and, as Luther explains, faith that does not produce good works is not true faith.

 

[c659smith]

Gcnuss,

I agree with yoiu interpetation but many in the forum here are stating they are saved by faith alone or other mis guided souls saying works alone and either of them just do not get it.

That where there is faith there is works and first there must be faith and through faith there will be works. Works that Jesus has shown us to do even greater ones.

This is what the Cathiolic Church believes and teaches not as many that are being misled or do not know the facts

 

[Mannyfit75]

You know this question still remains unanswered to me… to me, the idea of separating the Church and Jesus Christ sounds like Jesus divorce his Bride, the Church…