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soflochristmas
Guest
then why would you not kneel before Him?
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simple_soul
Guest
Ohhh, but I do kneel before Him.
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simple_soul
Guest
All I can say is read the letter.
There is no way I could have put the words that John Paul II uses into his mouth.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I read the letter —and you indeed manipulated the Pope’s statement to put **your **words in his mouth.
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simple_soul
Guest
If that is what you want to believe then believe it. Although I would recommend going to the Holy See and seeking council on it.
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Walking_Home
Guest
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chaunceygardner
Guest
To “Walking Home” and “Simple Soul” I say:
Let’s fight nicely, children.
I am amazed that it would take more than 7 or 8 posts to answer the original question. And the discussion seems to have headed off into accusations and arguments about Roman vs. Eastern Rites, etc. To get back to the original query, it appears that some of the earlier posts addressed the issue of when and somewhat why. But I would have to point out that the assumption that churches in the Western Rite all use kneelers, or must use them, is somewhat in error.
In my travels over the decades I have been in several Roman Catholic churches that did not have kneelers, and in some cases, did not have pews. This seems to be quite common in some parts of Europe, and I am surprised that someone else has not mentioned that (unless I missed it in the 100+ posts). There, some churches have chairs; no pews, no kneelers, just chairs.
But I have also been in Catholic churches in the U.S. and other parts of North America that were set up that way as well. I am familiar with a church, built about 40 some years ago, that has pews but has never had kneelers. During the Mass, the congregation stands at times that people in other parishes kneel, including the Eucharistic prayer. Same as in some European churches. There is still genuflecting, but no prolonged period spent on one’s knees.
My suspicions, based on various readings and observations over the years, is that whether one prays standing or kneeling is based on the traditions and practices that have developed in the particular location or country, as well as which Rite they follow. American Catholics follow the practice of kneeling, with some exceptions.
I recall as a boy that there were Polish, Irish, German, and Italian Catholic parishes in America, and likely others beyond those. Each were formed many years before by a group of people of a particular nationality or ethnicity. They all were Catholic, but the atmosphere within each was different. They all followed the same Order of Mass but each was unique enough that you knew which church you were in. These all developed from the traditions of those people, brought over from the “old country”. And in some the congregation stood at times that in other churches the people knelt. When in such a church, I always waited an extra second to make sure I was not the only one standing when everyone else was sitting or kneeling.
Even today, with how everything is so homogenized, you can still notice distinct differences in various churches and parishes. Standing vs. kneeling is a very obvious one.
Is one way better than the other? Is one “right” and the other “wrong”? Let’s think of it this way: **What is most important when we pray, our physical “attitude” or our spiritual attitude? ** There are many images of prayer, especially saints, showing them standing with arms outstretched in supplication. There are word and visual depictions of early Christians standing in prayer, kneeling in prayer, or even prone.
If you think back to the time of Jesus, it seems that in most instances people would be praying while either sitting or standing. And let’s think about the Crucifixion, which with the Lord’s Supper make up the key parts of our Liturgy, and is the greatest and holiest offering ever made. Were the disciples who were there kneeling? In several depictions of the crucifixion that I checked, the followers of Jesus are either all standing, or some are standing and some are kneeling (often Mary). In the Gospels, there is no mention of anyone kneeling, although I don’t know His mother Mary could have remained on her feet watching her son being crucified. Mark talks about “bystanders”, and both Mark and Matthew say the disciples were “looking on”. John doesn’t say anything although the depictions of John with Mary usually show them standing together. Luke says the followers of Jesus “stood at a distance.”
So my conclusion is that we may not know exactly when or why the tradition of kneeling became the generally accepted practice in the Western Rite, but it is not universal. Usage varies depending on the Rite being used, the nationality or ethnicity of the church, and even perhaps the practices and tradiitons of the particular parish.
In arguing over the mechanics of the liturgy and our faith practices, we too often forget about what is truly important, and what is really necessary. As Jesus said, it is not the externals that matter, it is what is inside of us.
I would say either is perfectly acceptable, and I would just go with the practice of the church I happen to be in. As they say: “When in Rome….”
Let’s fight nicely, children.
I am amazed that it would take more than 7 or 8 posts to answer the original question. And the discussion seems to have headed off into accusations and arguments about Roman vs. Eastern Rites, etc. To get back to the original query, it appears that some of the earlier posts addressed the issue of when and somewhat why. But I would have to point out that the assumption that churches in the Western Rite all use kneelers, or must use them, is somewhat in error.
In my travels over the decades I have been in several Roman Catholic churches that did not have kneelers, and in some cases, did not have pews. This seems to be quite common in some parts of Europe, and I am surprised that someone else has not mentioned that (unless I missed it in the 100+ posts). There, some churches have chairs; no pews, no kneelers, just chairs.
But I have also been in Catholic churches in the U.S. and other parts of North America that were set up that way as well. I am familiar with a church, built about 40 some years ago, that has pews but has never had kneelers. During the Mass, the congregation stands at times that people in other parishes kneel, including the Eucharistic prayer. Same as in some European churches. There is still genuflecting, but no prolonged period spent on one’s knees.
My suspicions, based on various readings and observations over the years, is that whether one prays standing or kneeling is based on the traditions and practices that have developed in the particular location or country, as well as which Rite they follow. American Catholics follow the practice of kneeling, with some exceptions.
I recall as a boy that there were Polish, Irish, German, and Italian Catholic parishes in America, and likely others beyond those. Each were formed many years before by a group of people of a particular nationality or ethnicity. They all were Catholic, but the atmosphere within each was different. They all followed the same Order of Mass but each was unique enough that you knew which church you were in. These all developed from the traditions of those people, brought over from the “old country”. And in some the congregation stood at times that in other churches the people knelt. When in such a church, I always waited an extra second to make sure I was not the only one standing when everyone else was sitting or kneeling.
Even today, with how everything is so homogenized, you can still notice distinct differences in various churches and parishes. Standing vs. kneeling is a very obvious one.
Is one way better than the other? Is one “right” and the other “wrong”? Let’s think of it this way: **What is most important when we pray, our physical “attitude” or our spiritual attitude? ** There are many images of prayer, especially saints, showing them standing with arms outstretched in supplication. There are word and visual depictions of early Christians standing in prayer, kneeling in prayer, or even prone.
If you think back to the time of Jesus, it seems that in most instances people would be praying while either sitting or standing. And let’s think about the Crucifixion, which with the Lord’s Supper make up the key parts of our Liturgy, and is the greatest and holiest offering ever made. Were the disciples who were there kneeling? In several depictions of the crucifixion that I checked, the followers of Jesus are either all standing, or some are standing and some are kneeling (often Mary). In the Gospels, there is no mention of anyone kneeling, although I don’t know His mother Mary could have remained on her feet watching her son being crucified. Mark talks about “bystanders”, and both Mark and Matthew say the disciples were “looking on”. John doesn’t say anything although the depictions of John with Mary usually show them standing together. Luke says the followers of Jesus “stood at a distance.”
So my conclusion is that we may not know exactly when or why the tradition of kneeling became the generally accepted practice in the Western Rite, but it is not universal. Usage varies depending on the Rite being used, the nationality or ethnicity of the church, and even perhaps the practices and tradiitons of the particular parish.
In arguing over the mechanics of the liturgy and our faith practices, we too often forget about what is truly important, and what is really necessary. As Jesus said, it is not the externals that matter, it is what is inside of us.
I would say either is perfectly acceptable, and I would just go with the practice of the church I happen to be in. As they say: “When in Rome….”
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soflochristmas
Guest
I’m confussed. I thought you said in a prevoius post you don’t kneel during Mass.
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simple_soul
Guest
Thank you chaunceygardner for putting things back into perspective.
I hope I can remember this better the next time I ask a question. I really do feel foolish for letting my emotions get the better of me.
I will have to say that I have learned more on this thread than I originally intended to. I do want to thank everyone for the information you posted and will read up on it to study it further.
I also want to say that I really do not mean any disrespect for anothers disciplines and that I am sorry if I implied it either consciously or subconsciously.
Untill next time
Please keep me in you prayers
I hope I can remember this better the next time I ask a question. I really do feel foolish for letting my emotions get the better of me.
I will have to say that I have learned more on this thread than I originally intended to. I do want to thank everyone for the information you posted and will read up on it to study it further.
I also want to say that I really do not mean any disrespect for anothers disciplines and that I am sorry if I implied it either consciously or subconsciously.
Untill next time
Please keep me in you prayers
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