Why do skeptics reject NDE's and "Feeling God" moments?

[Pieman333272]

(If this isn’t allowed as a topic, please alert me, but I think it follows all the rules)

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s or “Feeling God” Moments (hereby FGM) as evidence for God, the skeptics with whom they are talking will object that it either:

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)
B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha
C) something else, which is what this thread is about

Now, having heard about a number of NDE’s and FGM’s and finding them convincing, interesting, and unsuseptiable to most of these “fallacies” (especially the FGM’s where they hear/see something or someone beyond their control, i.e. God ). I also find it interesting that no matter how much searching I do, I can’t find a single FGM involving an athiest who became something besides Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, and one with a pagan where they stayed pagan. So, what are some objections to these besides A) and B)? Especially the FGM’s which happen to atheists and lead them to join an Abrahamic Faith.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Pieman, what they’re doing is akin to whistling past the graveyard. (Hoping that it’s really NOT true.) Because, if it IS true, then they know they have to change their lives (usually drastically). One can become addicted to having one’s own way. And a lot of Americans are guilty of this, Catholic and non-Catholic. They only want God on their terms, not His.

 

[Holly3278]

I am not sure but I think they believe it is nothing the emotionalism of/before the event that causes these events.

 

[GEddie]

(If this isn’t allowed as a topic, please alert me, but I think it follows all the rules)

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s or “Feeling God” Moments (hereby FGM) as evidence for God, the skeptics with whom they are talking will object that it either:

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)
B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha
C) something else, which is what this thread is about

Now, having heard about a number of NDE’s and FGM’s and finding them convincing, interesting, and unsuseptiable to most of these “fallacies” (especially the FGM’s where they hear/see something or someone beyond their control, i.e. God ). I also find it interesting that no matter how much searching I do, I can’t find a single FGM involving an athiest who became something besides Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, and one with a pagan where they stayed pagan. So, what are some objections to these besides A) and B)? Especially the FGM’s which happen to atheists and lead them to join an Abrahamic Faith.

There are 2 problems with NDEs apart from the religious identification:

1. The expereinces are wildly divergent. One NDEr might have the whole classical package complete with a tunnel, a being of light, and a spiritual body; while another will find themselves simply in a place of “peaceful darkness” (I hope to GOD that the afterlife is NOT a place of “peaceful darkness”!!!) Also, many people go into a state of near death and record no conscious experience at all.
2. There is no way to prove categorically that NDE is not just the dying head giving its owner one last show before the lights go out for good. Like the hero in “Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge,” it might be just our live mind refusing the fact of death.

As for FGM, it is much more subjective even than NDE. I’m not surprised that both are received with skepticism.

Nobody would welcome categorical proof of life beyond death more than I. But so far, the studies of NDE put forth since 1977 do not present any such proof. Human eschatology remains a matter of faith.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[In_Spiration]

(If this isn’t allowed as a topic, please alert me, but I think it follows all the rules)

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s or “Feeling God” Moments (hereby FGM) as evidence for God, the skeptics with whom they are talking will object that it either:

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)
B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha
C) something else, which is what this thread is about

Now, having heard about a number of NDE’s and FGM’s and finding them convincing, interesting, and unsuseptiable to most of these “fallacies” (especially the FGM’s where they hear/see something or someone beyond their control, i.e. God ). I also find it interesting that no matter how much searching I do, I can’t find a single FGM involving an athiest who became something besides Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, and one with a pagan where they stayed pagan. So, what are some objections to these besides A) and B)? Especially the FGM’s which happen to atheists and lead them to join an Abrahamic Faith.

If the person claiming the experience does not suddenly undergo a drastic, positive, and permanent change in his lifestyle, then I would almost always dismiss the authenticity of it. That’s gotta eliminate the majority of these things. And I say “positive” very strictly. If the dude’s not specifically praising the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit afterward, or if he’s stubbornly engaging in any significant number of his previously blinding sins, he better expect to relish the pleasure of his “private showing” without much company. As long as my faith in the Church is strong, my faith in whatever sort of testimony that conflicts with Her teachings will be disqualified from even reaching the status of considerable evidential data.

Always keep in mind man’s natural tendency to let his own pride and vanity get the best of him, obstructing his knowledge of God and truth. We probably fall pray to our own ego-driven self-deception more than we can comfortably admit. Who wouldn’t want to be chosen individually by God as a recipient of unique attention? Or wish for the simplicity of being told by God or an angel with crystalline divine clarity a narrowly specific purpose and mission in life? Or so favored or gifted as to be graced by Him with an experience that just so happens to boost self-esteem, reinvigorate daily life, as well as provide an insuperable story for any dinner party, blind date, or cult meeting one will ever in the future attend? Let’s just say that the prima facie rationale for dismissal is already dealing with a stacked deck before the hand of evidence is even played.

If I were the subject of such an event, then yes, an honest evaluation of its legitimacy would be critically important to me. If true, I’d rightly give special attention to it and base life-altering decisions on it, so lots of logic and introspection would be warranted. I hope I would still attempt to be as impartial and rationally principled as possible even regarding my own self and my interpretation of it all.

However, if merely judging the testimony of someone else who claims to have had special divine access, I can’t see why I’d analyze it very much. Unless the person testifying is someone very close to me and I wish to help her get at the facts, I’d be much better off spending my thoughts of God on less dubious and subjectively restricted means to Him. So a guy tells me he witnessed an apparition that he “just knows” is genuine (and thus naturally, of course, serves as a Joker card in any religious debate employing mere non-immediate Reason)? OK, cool story, but his only way of sharing its worth will be limited to his degree of trustworthiness, capacity for discernment, humility, etc., and I’m rarely in a position to judge as much. I’ll take it cum grano salis and focus on what I can access, viz., myself and the natural, created world in which I live. And then I’ll jealously pray for God to give me what he got, carefully citing the fact that it’s just no fair.

 

[lemondiesel]

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)

In NDEs, the brain has dying neurons misfiring. Neuroscience shows us there are many reasons why one could hallucinate in near death; oxygen deficiency to the brain,images produced by brain due to mental and physical stress, and anesthesia causing dreamlike states. Studies have also shown that “near death” experiences can be induced by use of anesthetics such as ketamine.

The human brain is an image producing organ with the ability to hallucinate, and will do so when under stress; the same way a severely dehydrated person stranded in the desert will see an oasis. The only evidence for consciousness beyond brain function are unreliable personal stories.

B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha

Out of all the current religions in the world, not one can prove they have the true religion. All religions invoking a deity have no more evidence than any other. Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Krishna…They can not all be right!

Is not a Muslim or Buddhist having an experience? Look at the intense devotion. They surely believe they are having an experience. Who can say if a Hindu’s experience is not even more real to him or her than an Orthodox Jew’s or Christian’s experience?

C) something else, which is what this thread is about

If you are reading this, your brain is being used, activated. The brain is a fully functioning organ and all of its parts are found in the chimpanzee brain as well as other mammals. The reading of language, the comprehension of it, and your feelings about it, are all physical functions of your brain. It is not a ghost inside of you thinking. It is your brain at work, and we can literally see those areas of the brain being activated during MRI scans.

We have finally understood that every aspect of our human experience, every thought and emotion is directly attributed to activity in the brain. Our behavior and personality are products of physical processes of 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses. The left hemisphere is the calculating side, logical, analytical, it looks at parts and uses language. The right side, bring the intuitive, creative side, visual, sees the whole, and deals with feeling and music.

What does this tell us? You are your brain!

And there is no need for a God. Te world works exactly the way we would expect it to work. We have never witnessed a supreme being intervening and/or breaking laws of nature for humans.

 

[AntiTheist]

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s or “Feeling God” Moments (hereby FGM) as evidence for God, the skeptics with whom they are talking will object that it either:

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)
B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha
C) something else, which is what this thread is about

Now, having heard about a number of NDE’s and FGM’s and finding them convincing, interesting, and unsuseptiable to most of these "fallacies"

I don’t understand this part of the OP.

If you know that these are the objections, how can you find any stories of NDE’s or FGM’s “convincing” or that are “unsuseptiable” to these objections?

FGM’s and NDE’s are inconsistent and can be easily explained.

 

[MarianD]

I agree with the others that NDEs are simply hallucinations. I’ve heard stories of children in India seeing Krishna for example. We all know Krishna isn’t any sort of heavenly creature (if he existed at all).

Out of all the current religions in the world, not one can prove they have the true religion. All religions invoking a deity have no more evidence than any other. Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Krishna…They can not all be right!

That’s where miracles come in. You can’t prove the spiritual using the material. Matter cannot be used to prove the existence of spirit. The premise of the “no evidence for God claim” is that “You can’t prove God using matter”. God isn’t matter (in fact, He’s above it) so that premise is correct. But the conclusion is erroneous because God can be proven in other ways such a miracles and visions.

Of course, unless one comes to believe in a world beyond our material world, these miracles and visions mean nothing. And someone who is stubborn with their beliefs will not change it. Simply because someone has a devotion to something doesn’t mean that they are correct because they believe in it so much. That’s why no one here says “So many people are theists” and uses that as a legitimate argument for God’s existence.

And there is no need for a God. Te world works exactly the way we would expect it to work. We have never witnessed a supreme being intervening and/or breaking laws of nature for humans.

You ever think that the reason for this is God? That He wanted the universe to work according to a perfectly set design so He wouldn’t have to consistently interfere with nature to fix it from breaking? The argument that the universe works perfectly fine is neither proof for nor against God.

And I and many others would argue that we HAVE witnessed God intervening. He rarely breaks natural laws because the way He made the universe requires no need for intervention in order for it to work. But He does let us know He is there and gives us the option of choosing Him, which is why miracles happen. A miracle is rarely universal because it’s only meant for those who choose to be open for belief to gain more certainty in their beliefs. It’s not for a fully convinced Atheist to suddenly believe. God operates on a “Let me, and I will” system, not a “Deny me, and I will make you” system.

 

[lemondiesel]

That’s where miracles come in. You can’t prove the spiritual using the material. Matter cannot be used to prove the existence of spirit. The premise of the “no evidence for God claim” is that “You can’t prove God using matter”. God isn’t matter (in fact, He’s above it) so that premise is correct. But the conclusion is erroneous because God can be proven in other ways such a miracles and visions.

Prove to me miracles and visions actually happen without any possible scientific explanation.

You ever think that the reason for this is God? That He wanted the universe to work according to a perfectly set design so He wouldn’t have to consistently interfere with nature to fix it from breaking? The argument that the universe works perfectly fine is neither proof for nor against God.

How can you claim that this is a perfectly set design. We cannot compare it to any other universes. It only seems perfect because that is how we interpret it be. The argument that it works this way because of God is not proof. I will accept the answer that mere Existence is this god, and physical matter is the evidence for existing.

God operates on a “Let me, and I will” system, not a “Deny me, and I will make you” system.

Haha! Are you going to claim mere coincidences are the work of God? What are the criteria used to decide if this event is either a “coincidence” or “a message from God?”

 

[Pieman333272]

I agree with the others that NDEs are simply hallucinations. I’ve heard stories of children in India seeing Krishna for example. We all know Krishna isn’t any sort of heavenly creature (if he existed at all).

That’s where miracles come in. You can’t prove the spiritual using the material. Matter cannot be used to prove the existence of spirit. The premise of the “no evidence for God claim” is that “You can’t prove God using matter”. God isn’t matter (in fact, He’s above it) so that premise is correct. But the conclusion is erroneous because God can be proven in other ways such a miracles and visions.

Of course, unless one comes to believe in a world beyond our material world, these miracles and visions mean nothing. And someone who is stubborn with their beliefs will not change it. Simply because someone has a devotion to something doesn’t mean that they are correct because they believe in it so much. That’s why no one here says “So many people are theists” and uses that as a legitimate argument for God’s existence.

You ever think that the reason for this is God? That He wanted the universe to work according to a perfectly set design so He wouldn’t have to consistently interfere with nature to fix it from breaking? The argument that the universe works perfectly fine is neither proof for nor against God.

And I and many others would argue that we HAVE witnessed God intervening. He rarely breaks natural laws because the way He made the universe requires no need for intervention in order for it to work. But He does let us know He is there and gives us the option of choosing Him, which is why miracles happen. A miracle is rarely universal because it’s only meant for those who choose to be open for belief to gain more certainty in their beliefs. It’s not for a fully convinced Atheist to suddenly believe. God operates on a “Let me, and I will” system, not a “Deny me, and I will make you” system.

Thank you, to all who posted.

@AT, I should hvave been more clear, I am unconvinced by all FGM’s, I should have said I find convincing **certain **NDE’s. I included FGM’s to see some answers to that as well.

As for being inconsistent, I should have said that some NDE’s are inconsistent (when I say FGM’s aren’t inconsistent, I mean a **change of belief **as a result of said FGM, not just entering meditative state), but a good persentage of NDE’s encompass no Gods, especially ADE’s, that is, when the brain atcually ceses to function for a good period of time, and still lead to a positive change in belief.

Anyway, I fell my question has been sufficiently answered, but feel free to further discuss (I actually only wanted familiarity with the subject, not a debate).

 

[DaveBj]

(If this isn’t allowed as a topic, please alert me, but I think it follows all the rules)

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s…

remainder snipped

I eventually did figure out what “NDEs” are, but back when I was in training to be an intelligence analyst, I was taught that, for clarity’s sake, an acronym or abbreviation needs to be expanded the first time it is used. After that–abbreviate away!

DaveBj

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

I think that another reason that skeptics are, well, skeptical of NDEs and FGMs is that these experiences are usually claimed to be caused by God without there being much supporting evidence that they are. There is a logical leap from “I had a strange, unexplainable experience,” to “Therefore, that experience was caused by God.”

Even if NDEs did not have any alternate explanations (such as oxygen deprivation, as described above) that still would not justify making the claim that God did it. There could very well be other explanations that have not yet been discovered.

There would need to be something more solid connecting the experience to its cause other than a “What else could it be?” type of explanation.

 

[AntiTheist]

@AT, I should hvave been more clear, I am unconvinced by all FGM’s, I should have said I find convincing **certain **NDE’s.

Ok. Could you explain what you find convincing about certain NDE’s, especially in light of the objections you acknowledge? What makes these certain NDE’s more convincing than other NDE’s?

 

[Pieman333272]

Ok. Could you explain what you find convincing about certain NDE’s, especially in light of the objections you acknowledge? What makes these certain NDE’s more convincing than other NDE’s?

There are two types of NDE’s I accept, with minor exceptions. I might except other types based on the circumstances.

The first type is the happening of an NDE to an atheist, particularly a hard atheist, that results in belief. Thoughts your brain creates, when both conscious and not conscious, are based on what you are or were thinking about, even if you don’t know it. This has been studied and proven (at least as of 2007, when my first class on neuroscience where this was mentioned took place).

For example, if you fall asleep while staring at an image of a particular woman (not that I’ve ever **done **that ), you will have a much higher probability of dreaming about said women (remember you can dream without remembering). If you are drinking salt at the time (I needed to think of something, OK?), you have a much higher chance of
A) Dreaming about the girl and the salt in separate dreams (you also usually have multiple dreams in one night)
B) Having a dream about the woman, and the salt, at the same time. Wow, I need a life.

So, even if the NDE has a neuroscientifically correct explanation, the atheist needs to be thinking about God, or Jesus, or an afterlife, or religion (note I’m presuming Christian and religion neutral NDE’s here), or virtually anything on that topic, hard enough to affect the brain’s thought. This leaves us with five options:
A) Deathbed conversion
B) The atheist isn’t really an atheist (no real atheist theory gains evidence)
C) Temporary separation of mind and brain or temporary death (presumes dualism) resulting in vision
D) Brain creates vision under intervention (conversion by intervention HAS happened in modern times, somebody linked to a book excerpt on that in another thread a month ago on such)
E) Fear of death, to extent of accepting or acknowledging the plausibility of contradictory ideas.

C, D, and possibly A and/or B all help religion. One with a worldview different than mine may use different research against my ideas or reach E or come up with a different conclusion.

The second one I find convincing is one where the person’s brain, and possibly heart, actually stops for a good 10+ seconds regardless of other circumstances, and the person gives an NDE account spanning longer than the time it took for the brain to cease functioning. All of the documented forms of these involve no God(s), but do sometimes result in a positive change of belief. I recently watched a video on these that I was given a link to by somebody on this forum, I’ll try to link to it later, because I can’t find the thread now.

As I said, I’m not looking for a debate, so you’re free to refute these but don’t be surprised if no comment is returned.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

(If this isn’t allowed as a topic, please alert me, but I think it follows all the rules)

Often, when somebody cites NDE’s or “Feeling God” Moments (hereby FGM) as evidence for God, the skeptics with whom they are talking will object that it either:

A) Can be easily explained (naturally)
B) Is inconsistent, i.e. Hindu’s have the same with Krishna and Buddhists with Buddha
C) something else, which is what this thread is about

Now, having heard about a number of NDE’s and FGM’s and finding them convincing, interesting, and unsuseptiable to most of these “fallacies” (especially the FGM’s where they hear/see something or someone beyond their control, i.e. God ). I also find it interesting that no matter how much searching I do, I can’t find a single FGM involving an athiest who became something besides Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, and one with a pagan where they stayed pagan. So, what are some objections to these besides A) and B)? Especially the FGM’s which happen to atheists and lead them to join an Abrahamic Faith.

Basically it boils down to Christ’s comments -

Matthew 12:34 - “For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”

Luke 16:31 - “if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

Unless they already believe in Christ, they will not accept the Christian veiwpoint on NDE’s or any other supernatural event. And I can demonstrate that from my own experience.

I claim that on the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He started with an apology for 20 plus years of constant and deliberate cruelty, we conversed and argued, and at the end he gave this truly terrifying scream, and then promptly disappeared. The scream was so frightening I started to scream, even though I couldn’t see what was coming for him."

Now as far as I’m concerned, I basicallly witnessed the outcome of his judgement.

When he’d disappeared, I got up, turned on all the lights, checked under the bed, made sure all the doors and windows were locked, checked the cupboards etc.

As you might realise it took me a while to get back to sleep.

Now his body wasn’t found for four days, as he died in his flat. My uncle, my mother’s brother, came to tell me he’d died. I still remember standing there and looking toward the bedroom where he’d appeared four days earlier, and thinking, “Then what the hell was that the other night!!?”

My uncle apparently saw the expresssion on my face, and asked if I was all right. I said I was, and in due course he left.

Now I was an atheist at the time, and my next thought was “Nah, that couldn’t have happened! I don’t believe in things like that!”

As one of the proverbs put it, “As a man thinks in his heart, so he is.”

Basically it is the Word of God that convicts people, not intellectual arguments, personal experiences, testimonies etc. And I think sometimes that is where we Catholics come unstuck to some extent. When I first became Catholic I was a bit aggressive about defending my new position with Protestand friends and relatives. The trouble with that is that we forget that Christ is the source of the power, not tradition or anything else. The tradition is merely the historical and theological backdrop to our faith. But by itself it won’t convict a single person.

By concentrating too much on defending our position, we don’t take the evangelical route anywhere near as much as we should. Christ’s word convicts, not our personal expeiences.

So in theory, if you’re going to write about NDE’s etc, especially if you’re going to argue with atheists, then try to include some relevant scriptural quotes with it. You’ll either find you get a sort of strange respect, of if the devil’s got anything to do with it, you’ll get a virulent response. Either way, you’ll have hit a chord.

 

[rwillenborg]

I have to say, and maybe it’s because I’ve never experienced either, but I think both NDEs and those ‘Feeling God’ moments are both a bunch of nonsense. I’m sure some are real, but I have no way of knowing which is which, so I just dismiss all of them.

 

[lemondiesel]

You guys should watch the Nat Geo documentaries called Moment of Death and Inside LSD. I recommend them both as 5 star.

 

[AntiTheist]

the happening of an NDE to an atheist, particularly a hard atheist, that results in belief

That a person converts cannot give you any information about whether or not he had a genuine supernatural experience – it can only tell you how strongly he believes.

It’s not remotely surprising to me that brains, when close to death, start pulling up everything that they have associated with death, including cultural god images. That the people going through this extreme brain state find these experiences powerful and convincing is irrelevant.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I have to say, and maybe it’s because I’ve never experienced either, but I think both NDEs and those ‘Feeling God’ moments are both a bunch of nonsense. I’m sure some are real, but I have no way of knowing which is which, so I just dismiss all of them.

Obviously in part it’s “because (you’ve) never experienced either.” Those of us who have had these experiences are, for the most part, just as lucid and sane as you are.

But to give you the story behind my first “double whammy” - I’d been a Christian for a bit over a year, was going through a divorce, wasn’t getting on particularly well with my new boss, had lost a house in the previous few months, and I was generally feeling rather depressed.

I’d also been asked to take part in a Scripture Union “Beach Mission” at a caravan park (which in this case was nohwere near a beach), and I was feeling right out of my depth.

I was getting quite cynical, and beginning to wonder, literally, “How do I know all this stuff is true, and isn’t just a psychological prop?”

Anyway we used to have this Bible discussion for the camp “leaders” of which I was supposed to be one at about 3pm each afternoon. We would sit on bench seats under a marquis (large tent akin to a circus tent, but not that big). The weather was quite hot and I felt lethargic.

The bloke leading the session was droning on, and I was almost falling asleep. But when he quoted the words, “…man after my own heart…” from Samuel (I think) referring to David, this “double whammy” hit me out of the blue. It was like a breath going through me in very strong waves from head to foot. It was clearly imposed upon me, and I certainly didn’t make it up.

When I later spoke to my pastor about this, his comment was “The Lord knows you’ve been going through a tough time, and you needed encouragement.”

So I got the encouragement, and the realisation it was true at the same time. But when I l looked around at everybody else to see what they were maknig of it, they weren’t taking the slightest bit of notice, for the simple reason it hadn’t happened to them.

This happened twice more, both times in my home church of the time, and both times were used to highlight what the speaker was saying. The first reference had to do with St. Paul, and the second with CS Lewis.

It’d deliberate, it’s imposed upon you, it carries a definite message, and not one other person is aware of it at the time That is not to say that other people don’t get such messages, but they are equally personal and individual. My Catholic psychiatrist has experienced it himself. In fact he coined the term “double whammy” and I’ve been using it ever since.

These things happen, whether you believe them or not.

 

[OvrlapnMagstria]

These things happen, whether you believe them or not.

I absolutely agree that both NDEs and “Feeling God Moments” do happen. The question is more about whether these experiences were caused by God or by something else. People certainly do attribute these experiences to God, but that doesn’t mean that that was the true cause.

Basically we have some unexplained phenomena happen, and people jump to the conclusion that God did it. However, logical conclusions cannot be made from something unexplained. It just remains unexplained. You can’t go from “I don’t know” to “Therefore.”

I apologize if it sounds like I am trying to take away from anyone’s experience. If you draw strength and inspiration from these kinds of experiences, then fantastic! Whatever works for you is fine by me. I’m just answering the question in the OP about why I am not convinced.