Why do so many Catholics act so superior?

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you, Monica.

You see, it appear to me that some people are making really extremist assumptions (and maybe without even realizing it).

And along with that, they’re also making these false dichotomies and ‘exclusions’ (as another poster noted).

To speak as St. Paul did in charity does not necessarily mean that the truth has to be ‘sugar coated’ IF by ‘sugar-coating’ one means changing the truth.

Now, it is possible to be very loving and gentle. . .Full of compassion, absolutely non judgmental, etc. and still to have people REJECT this.

Heck, look at the rich young man.

Jesus LOVED Him. But when Jesus told him the truth of what he (personally) needed to do–the rich young man WENT AWAY.

He rejected JESUS! Not because Jesus said the truth in a ‘hurtful’ way. . .there is nothing hurtful about simply being told, “to make yourself perfect, sell all you have, follow me and you will have treasure in heaven”, right?

But oh, to the rich young man, that truth was unacceptable. Sell all he had? But he had a lot and he NEEDED all that stuff. It didn’t matter that it was Christ Himself looking at Him, in the FLESH, and LOVING him. The rich young man had the power to accept Christ or reject Him–and the rich young man chose his own ‘truth’, that he needed his ‘toys’.

If Jesus Christ Himself speaking perfectly and lovingly was rejected by somebody who found His request 'too much for him", we shouldn’t expect that even our best and most loving efforts are met with rejection.

And we shouldn’t expect in those cases that we should ‘sugar coat’ the gospel.

Did Jesus call out, “Wait, I can see how much that stuff means to you, so you only have to give away half?” No. Jesus knew what the rich young man needed, and He told him. . .and Jesus was not about to ‘adjust’ the truth and make it ‘less’ and hope that in that way he’d get ‘some’ response.

Something to consider.

 

[CradleCath]

I’ve been following this thread for days & wanted to reply several times. I didn’t because I have been worried that those who say that “many Catholics act so superior” would attack me. Think about that for a moment. :sad_yes:

I really don’t agree with the premise that this thread is built upon. I don’t believe that there are more Catholics acting superior than there are Lutherans…or Methodists…or Baptists who act suprerior. I’ll just bet that a glance at one of their message boards would show that to be true.

I do believe that some Catholics are **more informed **about their faith than others…but, that could be due to the fact that they were raised by Catholic parents/their catechesis was better/or they’ve just studied their faith in depth. The problem is that some…rather than learn from these posters, resent them…& that is not charitable at all.

 

[EasterJoy]

i’ve read every word of this thread and don’t see where there needs to be any dichotomy between ac claire’s excellent assertions to speak Truth and easterjoy’s entreaty for humility.

story i’ve told before:

22 years ago, my oldest was 8. he had received first Holy Communion a year behind “schedule” because I suffered from a combination of disenfranchisement with the church and utter laziness (i.e., i didnt even really investigate my “icky” church feelings. i simply accepted them as reliable and acted accordingly.)

anyway, my boy finally recieved First Communion. so I thought, “i should be taking this kid to church.”

so on a sunday morning in june, he, all dressed in his First Communion suit and me, in my best attempt at church clothes, went to noon mass at a local church.

as i drove him there, i thought of the important things i could do with that hour so i left him by the church to go to mass himself so i could go buy groceries.

i came back an hour and ten minurtes later and my kid was sitting on the front steps of the church in the broiling hot sun with his suit jacket laid across his knees. he got in the car and said, “there’s no noon mass in the summertime.”

as i was driving out of the parking lot, a priest came out and waved me down. he admonished me (i mean, SCOLDED BAD) for leaving my kid to go to mass himself. didnt i know it was my responsibility to be a good example to the boy? and didnt i know how disheartening it mustve been for the poor kid, waiting in the hot sun for me to come back? "Is THAT how you want to raise your son in the Faith? teach him Mass is a drudgery and a waste of time???’ he demanded.

i had ZERO answer. i was angry. embarrassed. humiliated. sorry for my kid. and of a million other bad feelings-- that guy made me fell all of them.

but

it hit me right between the eyes.

i had to examine what WAS I doing? what DID i mean to accomplish by dropping him off at church? what example was i giving? (nevermind that these 22 years later my actions seem irresponsible and dangerous, too.)

but his admonishment forced me to look right in the face of my sloppy faith.

it was a BIG stepping stone in the sputtering and stalling re-version/conversion process God had been drawing me into.

when someone comes into catholic-faith-land and asks stuff, i’m responsible to God to prudently answer. i dont talk to people in the grocery store like this, just like i’m sure that priest wouldnt have admonished me at a dinner party. but i had put my own foot in the door of Faith. Thank GOD I got some Truth. just like here at CAF. folks here arent chatting in the snack bar line of the local swim club. we’re here on CAF

and here on CAF i owe it to you to share what has helped save me. straight. talking. Truth.

so where’s the humility? *** in the crushing knowledge that I don’t add a single iota to the Truth. *** it didnt begin in me. it doesnt come from me. it isnt mine. and i cant erase it, wreck it or drain it of its power. it’s God’s. and HIS Truth will be TRUE whether i assent to it or not.

that’s where the humility comes from.

Exactly. The final litmus test isn’t whether the person you are talking to wants to hear what you have to say. It is also not purely in whether what you have to say is true, but only in the facts. It is whether your tone is true. It is whether the time and place are appropriate, and whether it is your place to offer that admonishment to that person in that way.

We’re going to fail the truth, sometimes, but not speaking the truth is not the only way to fail it. Speaking it in a way that is only true in the strictly objective sense but not true in the way it implies we are or how God is would be other ways to fail our duties to the truth.

The nice thing about coming here is that at least the advice is* usually* solicited. And, let’s face it: Free advice is worth what you pay for it. In that case, those who ask for it should feel free to take it or leave it!

I would hope nobody draws too many conclusions about the Catholic Church as a whole from the few of us who are willing to give free advice!

 

[CradleCath]

i’ve read every word of this thread and don’t see where there needs to be any dichotomy between ac claire’s excellent assertions to speak Truth and easterjoy’s entreaty for humility.

story i’ve told before:

22 years ago, my oldest was 8. he had received first Holy Communion a year behind “schedule” because I suffered from a combination of disenfranchisement with the church and utter laziness (i.e., i didnt even really investigate my “icky” church feelings. i simply accepted them as reliable and acted accordingly.)

anyway, my boy finally recieved First Communion. so I thought, “i should be taking this kid to church.”

so on a sunday morning in june, he, all dressed in his First Communion suit and me, in my best attempt at church clothes, went to noon mass at a local church.

as i drove him there, i thought of the important things i could do with that hour so i left him by the church to go to mass himself so i could go buy groceries.

i came back an hour and ten minurtes later and my kid was sitting on the front steps of the church in the broiling hot sun with his suit jacket laid across his knees. he got in the car and said, “there’s no noon mass in the summertime.”

as i was driving out of the parking lot, a priest came out and waved me down. he admonished me (i mean, SCOLDED BAD) for leaving my kid to go to mass himself. didnt i know it was my responsibility to be a good example to the boy? and didnt i know how disheartening it mustve been for the poor kid, waiting in the hot sun for me to come back? "Is THAT how you want to raise your son in the Faith? teach him Mass is a drudgery and a waste of time???’ he demanded.

i had ZERO answer. i was angry. embarrassed. humiliated. sorry for my kid. and of a million other bad feelings-- that guy made me fell all of them.

but

it hit me right between the eyes.

i had to examine what WAS I doing? what DID i mean to accomplish by dropping him off at church? what example was i giving? (nevermind that these 22 years later my actions seem irresponsible and dangerous, too.)

but his admonishment forced me to look right in the face of my sloppy faith.

it was a BIG stepping stone in the sputtering and stalling re-version/conversion process God had been drawing me into.

when someone comes into catholic-faith-land and asks stuff, i’m responsible to God to prudently answer. i dont talk to people in the grocery store like this, just like i’m sure that priest wouldnt have admonished me at a dinner party. but i had put my own foot in the door of Faith. Thank GOD I got some Truth. just like here at CAF. folks here arent chatting in the snack bar line of the local swim club. we’re here on CAF

and here on CAF i owe it to you to share what has helped save me. straight. talking. Truth.

so where’s the humility? *** in the crushing knowledge that I don’t add a single iota to the Truth. *** it didnt begin in me. it doesnt come from me. it isnt mine. and i cant erase it, wreck it or drain it of its power. it’s God’s. and HIS Truth will be TRUE whether i assent to it or not.

that’s where the humility comes from.

GREAT POST. One I’ll never forget because you posted your own experiences.

BTW. As a child, I had a pastor just like the one you spoke of.

 

[gretahope]

…and Jesus followed this up with “Take the log out of your own eye first before trying to take a splinter out of someone else’s”…

 

[EasterJoy]

…and Jesus followed this up with “Take the log out of your own eye first before trying to take a splinter out of someone else’s”…

Tell that to an ex-smoker!

Seriously, though, this isn’t a Catholic problem, per se. I think that a strong desire to share a unquestionably positive change one has made in one’s own life can get mixed up in all this. People can mean well, can even be absolutely right, and yet still go a little overboard, in a way that is counter-productive. I mean when we are coming off as “superior” when that is the last thing we had in mind. It can take some patience on all sides.

 

[gretahope]

Regarding Baptists, Lutherans, Methodist acting just as superior…

This is just my experience and opinion, and I don’t think I know it all, for sure…

But as an ex-Protestant who has been around the block (several denominations) a few times, in leadership in churches, etc. We never have really had the substance to feel all that superior. The Catholics have the 2000 yr tradition, apostolic succession, you name it…we just thought that Catholicism was gobbledeguck, man-made traditions and rules…so that could have been the reason there was a minute feeling of superiority there, that, we “escaped” all that and are now “free.”

Whew. I’m glad to be out of the stone-throwing Protestantism, but it was not a place of supposed superiority, that I felt or experienced in various churches.

Maybe if we all realize we’re all sinners saved by grace and that we can be used of God when He calls to “speak the truth in love” we’ll all grow in that grace.

 

[Serap]

Regarding Baptists, Lutherans, Methodist acting just as superior…

This is just my experience and opinion, and I don’t think I know it all, for sure…

But as an ex-Protestant who has been around the block (several denominations) a few times, in leadership in churches, etc. We never have really had the substance to feel all that superior. The Catholics have the 2000 yr tradition, apostolic succession, you name it…we just thought that Catholicism was gobbledeguck, man-made traditions and rules…so that could have been the reason there was a minute feeling of superiority there, that, we “escaped” all that and are now “free.”

Whew. I’m glad to be out of the stone-throwing Protestantism, but it was not a place of supposed superiority, that I felt or experienced in various churches.

Maybe if we all realize we’re all sinners saved by grace and that we can be used of God when He calls to “speak the truth in love” we’ll all grow in that grace.

Unfortunately, many here think they are speaking the truth with love, but the love is missing from their message in their “holier than thou” tone.

I’m starting to understand a bit better reading some of the posters’ responses that they are not trying to be cold or come across as “shame on you!”, and they are trying to express love, it just doesn’t come across that way.

Jesus never spoke badly to tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. He spoke harshly to the religious who WERE following the rules to a “T”.

This just still confuses me a lot. How do we speak the truth while showing love and compassion?

 

[monicatholic]

and Jesus followed this up with “Take the log out of your own eye first before trying to take a splinter out of someone else’s”…

actually, greta, Jesus began by saying, “you hypocrite!” then he told them to take the beam out BEFORE trying to take a splinter.

hypocrite means i’m unwilling to follow my own happilly-spouted advice. if i committed adultery but warned you were going to hell for yours; if i called you a gossip and then gossiped about your bad habbit; if i admonished you for not bringing your kids to Church when my own kids hadnt seen the inside of one since May… etc. that’s hypocrite.

Jesus also warned to not strain gnats and leave camels. I shouldnt dare make a big deal about your public cussing language when i, in secret, verbally abuse my husband.

Jesus said “FIRST take the beam out.” he didnt say, "don’t instruct your brethern. HE said make sure you are in a position to. if ww waited for the perfect person to be credible enough to instruct us on anything, we’d be waiting for an apparition from the Blessed Mother or the second coming of the Lord!

greta, i would never give advice on how to improve in stewardship. i’m still struggling.
i couldnt begin to know how to counsel someone with glutononous tendencies. i wrestle with my own. i cant tell you how to keep your mind from wandering at Mass, or how to not have envious thoughts. there are sequoia sized beams rammed into my eyes and poking out the back of my head with the names of these issues burned into them.

but i can counsel about the spiritual deatht that occurs because of premarital sex, or warn against selfishness as a spouse or parent. i can counsel on matters of modesty (though it’s hotly contested) and i can offer my experience on the struggles and joys i’ve experienced with assenting to Church teaching and making God the ever-widening center of my life. i can talk about these things and bring them beyond subjective experience and support them with objective Truth.

i can advise on these and other issues because these are evils that God’s astonishing grace have triumphed in me. and these are matters of Faith and Morals for which there is clear, objective teaching. in fact, not only ***may ***i offer counsel on these things, i answer to God for these Truths. i’ve learned them; i’m responsible to share them.

at mass, we pray the confiteor,
I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me
to the Lord our God.

if someone asks for counsel and i fail to offer it to them, especially on matters where i have something to offer, then i have sinned. i have reason to ask for God’s forgiveness and for yours.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Unfortunately, many here think they are speaking the truth with love, but the love is missing from their message in their “holier than thou” tone.

I’m starting to understand a bit better reading some of the posters’ responses that they are not trying to be cold or come across as “shame on you!”, and they are trying to express love, it just doesn’t come across that way.

Jesus never spoke badly to tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. He spoke harshly to the religious who WERE following the rules to a “T”.

This just still confuses me a lot. How do we speak the truth while showing love and compassion?

It’s hard. Very hard.
But here’s a thought-- you seem to think that those who are being given the ‘tough love’ treatment are the equivalent of the tax collectors and prostitutes, you know, the ones who were actually listening to Jesus while the Pharisees were out there being picky picky.

But what if the ones you take to be Pharisees are really the tax collectors and prostitutes themselves? What if the ones seeming to ‘ask the questions’ and appearing to be the ‘poor souls’ are really the Pharisees, following their OWN type of religion and holding THEIR BELIEFS to a T?

What if?

In the eyes of the Pharisees, tax collectors and prostitutes, even if they claimed to be following God, just weren’t ‘acceptable’, because they were ‘innately’ sinful. A lot of people who come on ostensibly ‘checking out’ the Catholic faith may start out very ‘humble’ but quickly escalate to the Pharisee variant of today’s society of “Why how dare you judge me, don’t you know how awful that makes you, poor poor me, I am only trying to do the best I can, You ask too much, you demand too much, God would not do that, therefore you are the meanest and most cold-hearted people and God would weep for your sins.”

And the poor tax collectors (mistakenly labeled as Pharisees) are in the position of knowing that they themselves are weak, miserable sinners, but they are trying to do what Jesus told them. . .and so they ‘stand up for Him’ even though as Jesus warned they would be mocked and insulted for His sake . . .

I’m not saying this is the case all the time, by any means. . .but I do think that quite often the people yelling “Pharisee”, “hypocrite”, 'and unChristian" are doing so because if they launch the offensive quickly enough people won’t realize that the ones who are truly acting in a mean and hateful way are the yellers themselves. . .

 

[Nec5]

Jesus never spoke badly to tax collectors, prostitutes, etc.

It depends on what the etc means, but that statement isn’t necessarily true.

There’s a difference between the sinner that fails out of weakness (even though he/she knows it is wrong) and the current dominant crop of sinners that deny the sin, campaign for its acceptance, and spread it as virtue. The second group is dangerous and must be confronted with love,mercy, and truth first, but after that… coddling only endorses their evil.

 

[Serap]

It depends on what the etc means, but that statement isn’t necessarily true.

There’s a difference between the sinner that fails out of weakness (even though he/she knows it is wrong) and the current dominant crop of sinners that deny the sin, campaign for its acceptance, and spread it as virtue. The second group is dangerous and must be confronted with love,mercy, and truth first, but after that… coddling only endorses their evil.

Yeah I guess. I just worry about the ones who seek the truth and are scared off b4 they get a chance to understand it.

I listened to a homily where the priest said that there are two types of people in this world…wolves and lambs. Lambs need God and guidance and wolves create their own God and chase money, women, men, wordly things, etc.

I consider myself to be a lamb, but what about the wolves on CAF dressed in lambs clothing? I find there are a lot of them here that can chase potential Catholics away with their tactics. How do we know who is who? How do we know who is speaking with love and who is speaking with hate?

 

[CradleCath]

Regarding Baptists, Lutherans, Methodist acting just as superior…

This is just my experience and opinion, and I don’t think I know it all, for sure…

 

[Podo2005]

Yeah I guess. I just worry about the ones who seek the truth and are scared off b4 they get a chance to understand it.

I listened to a homily where the priest said that there are two types of people in this world…wolves and lambs. Lambs need God and guidance and wolves create their own God and chase money, women, men, wordly things, etc.

I consider myself to be a lamb, but what about the wolves on CAF dressed in lambs clothing? I find there are a lot of them here that can chase potential Catholics away with their tactics. How do we know who is who? How do we know who is speaking with love and who is speaking with hate?

Its a very difficult thing indeed, but the short answer is that through much prayer & study we’ll be able to discern between those who speak as a Shepherd , trying to guide those poor lambs back to Christ and those who are ravenous wolves trying to lead the sheep astray.

I apologize if I sounded harsh but I was only trying to point out that it would better to listen to the person first then assign a bad motive to them because in all humility…we don’t know the other person’s heart. Take for example a person who comes on this site asking if its “ok to use artificial contraception, I’ve been using it and I’m not sure if its right or not”. Another person responds “No its wrong to use it so you shouldnt be using it”… it would be fruitless to think at the moment that the person who responded is “being judgemental or self righteous” because we don’t know the person’s motives… but objectively speaking the person has just done two things 1) Hes given the person who asked** the truth** and 2) corrected or admonished(something St. Paul talks about frequently) the other person in a spirit of fraternal correction. Whether or not the person’s heart was in the right place… is that up to me to judge? Of course I pray and hope that the person did that act of fraternal correction (which objectively speaking is a noble thing to do) out of a motive of love because the person would be in dire trouble if they didn’t…but the fact is unless the person reveals to me that they didn’t do the action out of love then I can’t possibly know…

I guess it just frustrates me that we spend so much time trying to figure out the style with which we will preach the Gospel that we never actually end up doing it in word and in deed. I mean by all means we should be gentle and loving when correcting another person as you said…but content also matters. St. Peter talks alot in his 2nd letter about the fate of those who introduce “destructive opinions” (2 Peter 2:1-22)

Your brother in Christ,
Zachary

 

[monicatholic]

but what about the wolves on CAF dressed in lambs clothing?

but serap, rudeness or forcefulness or what you call “superiority” is NOT how the good pastor defined wolves. he said

wolves create their own God and chase money, women, men, wordly things, etc.

that’s not what’s happening here, right?

isnt it just enough to say, 'i dont like your tactics. they wouldnt work with me?" instead of calling whom you deem heavy-handed “wolves”?

 

[EasterJoy]

Unfortunately, many here think they are speaking the truth with love, but the love is missing from their message in their “holier than thou” tone.

I’m starting to understand a bit better reading some of the posters’ responses that they are not trying to be cold or come across as “shame on you!”, and they are trying to express love, it just doesn’t come across that way.

Jesus never spoke badly to tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. He spoke harshly to the religious who WERE following the rules to a “T”.

This just still confuses me a lot. How do we speak the truth while showing love and compassion?

Well, first off, I think the Passion proves that how well people take it when they hear the truth is a poor measure of the love and compassion with which you say it. Jesus said as much in the Beatitudes, as well.

Let’s consider what Jesus had to say:

With regards to those who had yet to hear the Gospel: “Into whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this household.’ If a peaceful person lives there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you. Stay in the same house and eat and drink what is offered to you, for the laborer deserves his payment. Do not move about from one house to another. Whatever town you enter and they welcome you, eat what is set before you, cure the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God is at hand for you.’ Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, ‘The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.’ Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town.” Luke 10:5-12

With regards to brothers and sisters: “What is your opinion? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray? And if he finds it, amen, I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not stray. In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost."
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.” Matt. 18:12-17

This is my take on it: you say what is to be said to those to whom it is within your jurisdiction to say it, in the most discrete way you can manage to say it. Having said it, if the message is heard, there is not mention of the past…you have won over your brother, rejoice and be done with it. If it is not heard, you let it go and you let the person go their own way. Once you have told someone what the truth is, judgement and their access to grace is left to God.

Remember the lawyer who asked Jesus “because he wished to justify himself”… “And who is my neighbor?” When Jeus had finished the story of the Good Samaratin and asked the lawyer to answer his own question, the lawyer replied, “The one who treated him with mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” (also from Luke 10).

Jesus didn’t always use a harsh tone with those who were self-righteous, then. He used the bluntness required, not simply more bluntness for the self-righteous than for others. I think that is a good guide, too.

 

[CradleCath]

I think that people who see themselves as “victims”, can also be wolves.
They just have a different, passive/agressive way of attack. A good example is the person who is told the truth, neither in a cruel way nor a gentle way, but matter-of-factlty.

Example:
poster #1. How has the Catholic Church come to the conclusion that homosexual acts are sinful?

poster #2. The Church has called them an objective evil on the basis of both Scripture that condemns it & the teachings of Aquinas on Natural Law.

Poster #1 does not like that answer & starts a thread called, “Is the Catholic Church Homophobic?” He/she then uses the thread to trash “all of those arrogant posters who think that better than him/her because they are heterosexual”.

Many times beneath the “victim veneer”… for a passive/agressive person…there is anger & a desire to punish.

 

[ac_claire]

I think that people who see themselves as “victims”, can also be wolves.
They just have a different, passive/agressive way of attack. A good example is the person who is told the truth, neither in a cruel way nor a gentle way, but matter-of-factlty.

Example:
poster #1. How has the Catholic Church come to the conclusion that homosexual acts are sinful?

poster #2. The Church has called them an objective evil on the basis of both Scripture that condemns it & the teachings of Aquinas on Natural Law.

Poster #1 does not like that answer & starts a thread called, “Is the Catholic Church Homophobic?” He/she then uses the thread to trash “all of those arrogant posters who think that better than him/her because they are heterosexual”.

Many times beneath the “victim veneer”… for a passive/agressive person…there is anger & a desire to punish.

Yeah. Unfortunately…yeah.

 

[Serap]

I think that people who see themselves as “victims”, can also be wolves.
They just have a different, passive/agressive way of attack. A good example is the person who is told the truth, neither in a cruel way nor a gentle way, but matter-of-factlty.

Example:
poster #1. How has the Catholic Church come to the conclusion that homosexual acts are sinful?

poster #2. The Church has called them an objective evil on the basis of both Scripture that condemns it & the teachings of Aquinas on Natural Law.

Poster #1 does not like that answer & starts a thread called, “Is the Catholic Church Homophobic?” He/she then uses the thread to trash “all of those arrogant posters who think that better than him/her because they are heterosexual”.

Many times beneath the “victim veneer”… for a passive/agressive person…there is anger & a desire to punish.

good point

 

[CountrySinger]

Yeah I guess. I just worry about the ones who seek the truth and are scared off b4 they get a chance to understand it.

One of my friends is like that. She first heard of the Catholic religion through a “fire and brimstone” type thing, and hated it. Now if I try to talk to her about it, I get shut down. I know she would respond to a kinder approach than “accept this or you’ll go to Hell” (which turns me off as well). But she has burned that bridge.
She would have made a good Catholic, unlike me, she is very demure, non-questioning, quiet, and submissive. It is sad really.