Why do so many "discussions" turn divisive?

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As I read through posts on a variety of boards on Catholic & Christian bulletin boards (mostly on Catholic Answers and Facebook), I’m amazed at how quickly some discussions turn rude and intolerant. Frankly, this sort of thing turns me off. If it turns off someone who is a committed Catholic Christian, how do you think it affects those we’re supposed to be evangelizing? Are they likely to be drawn to Christ if they see us fighting among ourselves and being insulting and rude in the process??

I had a friend in Alcoholics Anonymous who used to refer to the “big book” - written to guide AA members to live sober. He mentioned an expression sometimes used in their meetings when they talk about attracting others to live sober: “You may be the only copy of the big book some people will ever see”.

Our words and actions go far to influence others one way or another… to follow with you or to run like mad. We may be the only copy of the Big Book that some people will see. Can’t we be polite?

acts17verse28.blogspot.com
 
Matthew 10:34-38
*Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. *
 
what’s wrong with being divisive? Jesus was divisive. He said He did not come to bring peace to the earth but instead turn brother against brother, daughter against mother-in-law, (apparently women got along with their mother-in-laws back then), etc.

Better to take a stand for the truth than to be listen to blashpemy. I don’t want to face Jesus one day from now or 100 years from now, whenver my time is and tell Him, “well, I was really worried about offending someone or what they thought of me.” The only person we need to be worried about offending is our Lord.

And make no doubt about it, it is offensive to our Lord for our Church to be promoting leaders who will lead our brothers and sisters away from the truth.
 
Criticising a man’s religion is like kicking a man’s horse or criticising his woman: likely to provoke vigorous response!
 
from Rule of St. Benedict-
Indeed, so important is silence…because it is written: In a flood of words you will not avoid sin. (Prov 10:19).

These forums are what the nuns used to call “an occasion of sin.” imho.
 
NCSue said:
As I read through posts on a variety of boards on Catholic & Christian bulletin boards (mostly on Catholic Answers and Facebook), I’m amazed at how quickly some discussions turn rude and intolerant. Frankly, this sort of thing turns me off. If it turns off someone who is a committed Catholic Christian, how do you think it affects those we’re supposed to be evangelizing? Are they likely to be drawn to Christ if they see us fighting among ourselves and being insulting and rude in the process??

I had a friend in Alcoholics Anonymous who used to refer to the “big book” - written to guide AA members to live sober. He mentioned an expression sometimes used in their meetings when they talk about attracting others to live sober: “You may be the only copy of the big book some people will ever see”.

Our words and actions go far to influence others one way or another… to follow with you or to run like mad. We may be the only copy of the Big Book that some people will see. Can’t we be polite?

acts17verse28.blogspot.com
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When you care deeply about something, there’s going to be some flare ups.

Hence the term “discussion forum.”

Walk into a pub anywhere, and you’ll probably have some people yelling and debating.
 
Because of human error, and bad habits.

Some of the ones I’ve seen - and done:

Feeling attacked, and attacking in return. Even when our Church is maligned and lied about, we shouldn’t “fight back.” We need to stay calm and polite.

Attacking the person, instead of discussing their ideas. Another good saying that comes from AA is “Put principles before personalities.”

Believing that, since the Church is infallible, that makes me infallible. That’s not gonna happen anytime soon!

Giving in to the temptation to treat members of other faiths with scorn. Their ideas may seem stupid to me, but saying or implying that is attacking them. Baaaad apologetics.

Using a tone that effectively says “Nyah nyah, neener neener.” We need to act like grownups.

Refusing to admit we were wrong. Refusing to apologize when in the wrong. Refusing to accept an apology, and continuing to attack.

Letting ourselves get into a continuing fight with another person. “You said I was purple! I’m green!” “No you’re not! You said you were purple in another thread!” and on and on, boring and chasing away those who would like to discuss the thread topic.

Reacting strongly to the beginning of a post and firing off a reply before reading the rest.** Read the whole post before you reply!** Be sure of what the poster said and meant before reacting.

Remember:
There is such a thing as a bad argument to support the right conclusion.
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Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation, have mercy on us.

Ruthie
 
People just like to argue, and don’t know how to do it well.

The problem, IMHO, is that most people are not able to argue effectively without insults and derision. Effect arguers can present their point of view forcibly and convincingly without resorting to divisive language. They can disagree without being diagreeable. But too often the lack of competent rhetorical skills, the emotion inherent in religion and the anonymity of the internet create a perfect storm of venom. I find that most threads are only good for a half dozen substantive exchanges of ideas before someone starts name pointing and flaming. What’s worse, certain posters seem intent on seeking out certain topics and “yelling” at everyone to prevent any real discussion. Frustrating, but I’m not sure what can be done about it.
 
We’re all human, and we all fail. We’re not supposed to be rude, but some are. Indeed, it sounds from some of the other posts like some people actually enjoy it and feel entitled to be rude. 😦 Unfortunately, the rest of us just have to deal with it.

There’s no explaining some people; I saw one thread in which a teenager asked whether her dad was in hell because he fell from the top of a burning building (the idea was that he must’ve jumped to avoid the flames, so he had allegedly committed suicide). Some people actually posted repeatedly saying “Your dad is burning in Hell right now!” – and they call themselves Catholics! :confused:

I agree with you that we should be civil. There are times when I’ve been less than polite to some people, and I regret that; as Catholics, we have a duty to be better than the others, more Christ-like.

When the judgment comes, we will all have to answer for the people we turned away from the Faith – even if it only happened because of a post we made too quickly without calming down. I don’t look forward to that.
 
Re: Why do so many “discussions” turn divisive?

I wish I had an answer and a solution to that question.

Perhaps if each one of us should examine just what it is that we are trying to accomplish when we engage in a discussion.

Is our goal to “be right” and prove the other person “wrong”
or
Is our goal to bring a soul to truth?

I have found out in dealing in various boards that it really doesn’t matter what the argument is about. There are angry vicious people on all sides of any one argument. They do far more harm than good in trying to get their points across.

I think that religion is also a special problem because our identities are wrapped up in what we believe. Without a sure faith in God, we often are defensive and are insecure.

When I encounter a particularly abusive poster, I figure that he or she feels that the weight of all salvation rests on his or her shoulders - that they need to strike out to fend off all foes. We all need to trust that God has St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Rafael and the hosts of angels on His side. He does know what He is doing. Our job is to help lead souls to Christ.

We need to learn to debate from a deep abiding love of what we believe rather than anger and fear of that which we recognize as wrong.

For instance: love the TLM more than disliking the NO Mass.

Praise the beauty of the TLM 20 times to every 1 time criticizing the NO Mass.

Praising the beauty of the Latin prayers 20 times to every 1 time criticizing the Engish translations.

Praise the joy of being a Catholic 20 times to every 1 time criticizing another religion.

In other words, fill our hearts with so muc love that we are able bring that love to those whose point of view we disagree.
 
Godflower,

Your story about “Catholics” who said, “Your dad is burning in Hell right now!”

Brings out another thought. Can we be sure that people who would post such dreadful statements are in fact Catholic, but are only people posing as Catholics in order to make Catholics look bad.

In other words “trolls” who love to stir up trouble.
 
I guess the “Golden Rule” kind of gets forgotten sometimes in the heat of “battle”. Unfortunately, at times the premise that “we all fail sometimes” seems to become license to then say “to heck with even trying”.

The lack of ability to be civil with someone you disagree with, or the need to demonize opposing positions, seems to be becoming more and more the norm, at least in our culture. It has certainly taken over the political arena where members of the opposing parties can no longer even have a drink in the same bar. 😦

While I too sometimes fall to frustration and fail in charity, I try to view each post, before hitting the Submit button, with the question of how I would feel if it were directed by someone else toward my wife or one of my children.

I fear that KestrelRose’s observation that many are more interested in “winning” than in whether it is productive to the cause of bringing people to God. I am always reminded at such times that “Truth without love is a clanging cymbal”, and that love is patient and kind, and never hurtful.

Peace,
 
KestrelRose said:
Godflower,

Your story about “Catholics” who said, “Your dad is burning in Hell right now!”

Brings out another thought. Can we be sure that people who would post such dreadful statements are in fact Catholic, but are only people posing as Catholics in order to make Catholics look bad.

In other words “trolls” who love to stir up trouble.
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No, we can’t. Perhaps the person was a real Catholic with, shall we say, a real gift for insensitivity, or perhaps he was a troll. Either way, the damage was done to the teenager.

And I have a belief – unproven, to be sure – that incivility in general fosters further incivility.
 
Three things come to mind. First, some people have never developed acceptable manners. Second, some have developed acceptable manners but this relatively anonymous medium tends to make some people act in a manner they normally would not.

The third reason that comes to mind is far more delicate. A great number of people come together on these forums who would probably not come together in real life who have greatly differing levels of life experience, intrinsic smarts and formal education.

Some will for example immediately see through an invalid argument which can lead to frustration for the person trying to make the argument and things roll down hill from there. Similarly some who are more graced in certain ways by God will use these gifts in an unproductive manner against others causing the same slide down the same hill.

Finally I think quite a few here and on places like facebook have a fairly high degree of anger and/or disenfranchisement in their spiritual lives. In essence they enter a discussion with a predisposition to be divisive, particularly when facing an opinion that differs greatly from their own.
 
KestrelRose said:
…For instance: love the TLM more than disliking the NO Mass.

Praise the beauty of the TLM 20 times to every 1 time criticizing the NO Mass.

Praising the beauty of the Latin prayers 20 times to every 1 time criticizing the Engish translations.

Praise the joy of being a Catholic 20 times to every 1 time criticizing another religion.

In other words, fill our hearts with so muc love that we are able bring that love to those whose point of view we disagree.
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For instance: Not using rude monikers like “NO Mass” which is so offensive to so many. 😦

With official names Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass and OF Mass all more accurate with zero offense there is absolutely no reason to use monikers like “Novus Ordo Mass” or even worse “NO Mass” unless one intentionally means to be offensive.

I cannot imagine anyone could actually type “NO Mass” without at least a light hint of a feeling in the backs of the minds that it will be offensive to others. They magnify that feeling many times when they proclaim that’s what the Church calls the OF Mass – when it does not. 😦
 
OhMalley said:
For instance: Not using rude monikers like “NO Mass” which is so offensive to so many. 😦

With official names Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass and OF Mass all more accurate with zero offense there is absolutely no reason to use monikers like “Novus Ordo Mass” or even worse “NO Mass” unless one intentionally means to be offensive.

I cannot imagine anyone could actually type “NO Mass” without at least a light hint of a feeling in the backs of the minds that it will be offensive to others. They magnify that feeling many times when they proclaim that’s what the Church calls the OF Mass – when it does not. 😦
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Oh, it’s rude?

Go tell Pope Paul VI that.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1976/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19760524_concistoro_lt.html
Novus Ordo promulgatus est,
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Kthanks.
 
OhMalley said:
For instance: Not using rude monikers like “NO Mass” which is so offensive to so many. 😦

With official names Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass and OF Mass all more accurate with zero offense there is absolutely no reason to use monikers like “Novus Ordo Mass” or even worse “NO Mass” unless one intentionally means to be offensive.

I cannot imagine anyone could actually type “NO Mass” without at least a light hint of a feeling in the backs of the minds that it will be offensive to others. They magnify that feeling many times when they proclaim that’s what the Church calls the OF Mass – when it does not. 😦
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Okay, that’s interesting. It would never have occurred to me that “Norvus Ordo Mass” or “NO Mass” would be offensive. Why is it rude?
 
OhMalley said:
For instance: Not using rude monikers like “NO Mass” which is so offensive to so many. 😦

With official names Mass of Pope Paul VI, Pauline Mass, Ordinary Form of the Mass and OF Mass all more accurate with zero offense there is absolutely no reason to use monikers like “Novus Ordo Mass” or even worse “NO Mass” unless one intentionally means to be offensive.

I cannot imagine anyone could actually type “NO Mass” without at least a light hint of a feeling in the backs of the minds that it will be offensive to others. They magnify that feeling many times when they proclaim that’s what the Church calls the OF Mass – when it does not. 😦
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If I were to put that much thought into it, I personally would be more offended to hear the Novus Ordo called Ordinary Form. I see what you mean, but even my former pastor said “the NO Mass” one night during a discussion a few of us were having. “NO Mass” just looks bad on paper. With both N and O capitalized it appears as a negative label.

In posting, I try to remember to type Novus Ordo first, and then NO later in the same post.

I wonder how many first time guests browse this forum and later ask a priest or someone "what’s a no Mass " ? That’s the problem with using the word Mass after the letters NO. If some one posts “NO Mass” as a slur, it’s obvious. At that point, it doesn’t matter how they say it.
 
OraProNobisIHM said:
Oh, it’s rude?

Go tell Pope Paul VI that.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1976/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19760524_concistoro_lt.html

Kthanks.
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There you go…

That’s precisely the sort of response I was talking about. The official name of the Mass is the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Try as you may you cannot prove differently. Our current Pope calls it the Ordinary Form of the Mass. “Novus Ordo” or “NO” is not the name of the Mass – go check the current Roman Missal. Yet some ignore the Missal and the current Pope in order to take that little shot at what they do not like. It’s sickening.

Simply put there is no way that one could not see how typing “NO Mass” would be offensive to other Catholics. Absolutely no way. Yet they continue – because it makes them feel good to take that little shot at what they personally do not like. Again, it’s sickening.

To the OP, that’s “Why do so many “discussions” turn divisive.”
 
I_Believe said:
If I were to put that much thought into it, I personally would be more offended to hear the Novus Ordo called Ordinary Form. I see what you mean, but even my former pastor said “the NO Mass” one night during a discussion a few of us were having. “NO Mass” just looks bad on paper. With both N and O capitalized it appears as a negative label.
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Pope Benedict XVI formally calls the two main Masses of the Latin Rite the Ordinary Form of the Mass and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
I_Believe said:
In posting, I try to remember to type Novus Ordo first, and then NO later in the same post.

I wonder how many first time guests browse this forum and later ask a priest or someone "what’s a no Mass " ? That’s the problem with using the word Mass after the letters NO. If some one posts “NO Mass” as a slur, it’s obvious. At that point, it doesn’t matter how they say it.
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“NO Mass” is beyond good manners. It just should not be used. I’ve heard it in public and some have become agitated when I made believe I didn’t hear them.

“Novus Ordo” is simply not accurate – or certainly not as accurate as the actual names given to the OF. Why not simply try to type “OF” or “Pauline” Mass. Simple, far more accurate and not offensive in the least.
 
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