Why Do So Many Hate Things Roman?

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It is not “if a council forbid kneeling”, as if someone is lying.
I could be mistaken, but the way I understood PV’s statement, there was no suggestion at all of lying or anything like that. It seems to me that he meant " … for a council to forbid kneeling." That reading could also come if the clauses had been inverted in order, i.e., "If a council forbade kneeling … "
 
I could be mistaken, but the way I understood PV’s statement, there was no suggestion at all of lying or anything like that. It seems to me that he meant " … for a council to forbid kneeling." That reading could also come if the clauses had been inverted in order, i.e., "If a council forbade kneeling … "
Thanks malphono, its been one of those days.

Pro Vobis, I apologize for any offense my comment may have made in regards to the lying statement.
 
I would like to know the historical context of that quote. It is very vague. It doesn’t specify if it is referring Priests or laity. It certainly doesn’t say laity are forbidden to kneel in adoration.
 
On top of that, it says one “should”. I don’t see a wholesale condemnation of kneeling that everyone seems to imply.
 
On top of that, it says one “should”. I don’t see a wholesale condemnation of kneeling that everyone seems to imply.
Here is some commentary on the Canon.

Canon XX

Also not this from the Council of Trullo, also called the Quinisext Council.

Canon XC
We have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ’s resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, again with bended knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord’s resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection.

You can click on the words “Canon XC” above for a link to commentary on that.
 
=At Trent;8209578]I scan these threads here in Eastern, and see some fairly disturbing comments. Anti - latinizations, anti-Gregorian chant, etc.
Over on the TC forum I don’t see anti-Eastern comments, but again, see anti-Latin comments.
Might is be because no where in the ENTIRE Bible does one find God tolerate of more than One set of Faith beliefs? Because God intrusted the keys’ and therefore the Access to heaven to His Catholic Church, the CC church beomes the necessary target for all who choose not to accept God defined Will.

IMO this is a very human responce to Divine Commands.

God Bless and help us PLEASE!
 
Here is some commentary on the Canon.

Canon XX

Also not this from the Council of Trullo, also called the Quinisext Council.

Canon XC
We have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ’s resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, again with bended knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord’s resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection.

You can click on the words “Canon XC” above for a link to commentary on that.
So it is addressing Priests who celebrate the Liturgy.
Again, the word “should” was used and nowhere is there a condemnation of laity kneeling in adoration of their Lord on the Eucharist.
 
So it is addressing Priests who celebrate the Liturgy.
Again, the word “should” was used and nowhere is there a condemnation of laity kneeling in adoration of their Lord on the Eucharist.
Why do you hate the East?

I asked that in a facetious manner. I do so to shed light on the original post of this thread.

I know you do not hate the East but your constant questioning of it can be viewed as the OP views comments on Roman things in this forum.

And on that note I am out of here, I will let others carry on the discussion.
 
So it is addressing Priests who celebrate the Liturgy.
No. Read the linked commentary again. Also reread the quoted canon (and commentary) from the Qunisext Council which further clarifies that of Nicea.

In short, the canon does not apply to priests. Priestly posture during liturgical services is governed by the liturgical rubrics themselves, and there is little, if any, kneeling involved. Notice that even in the Latin Rite Usus Antiquior, the priest rarely kneels, and then only in particular services for specified feasts.
Again, the word “should” was used and nowhere is there a condemnation of laity kneeling in adoration of their Lord on the Eucharist.
One must keep in mind that the Canons were originally in Greek. However, even in English, the word “should” does indeed express obligation. See here for example:
should (shd)
aux.v. Past tense of shall
  1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
 
So it is addressing Priests who celebrate the Liturgy.
Again, the word “should” was used and nowhere is there a condemnation of laity kneeling in adoration of their Lord on the Eucharist.
Your interpretation does not at all fit with how it has historically been understood. First of all, the canon does apply to the laity. Secondly, in the context of the Fathers of the Council of Nicea, kneeling was not understood as an act of adoration, but one of penitence.

However, there is a sense in which your understanding is correct. The canon was not a condemnation of laity (or clergy) kneeling in adoration (in their historical and cultural context, one would not have knelt in adoration, but as a sign of penitence or sorrow). It is because of the concern of this disciplinary canon that penitence and/or sorrow is inconsistent with the celebration of the Resurrection that kneeling was forbidden on Sundays. Therefore, as kneeling would later come to be associated with adoration in the West, this canon (which, as I noted above, is disciplinary, and not dogmatic), need not be understood as condemning later Western practices of kneeling in adoration.

I would also add that I, as an Eastern Catholic, do not kneel at celebrations of the Divine Liturgy, as I believe it to be inappropriate to our traditions. On the other hand, I see no problem with kneeling at the Roman Mass, and, in fact, when I attend Mass, I kneel at the appropriate times.
 
Why do you hate the East?

I asked that in a facetious manner. I do so to shed light on the original post of this thread.

I know you do not hate the East but your constant questioning of it can be viewed as the OP views comments on Roman things in this forum.

And on that note I am out of here, I will let others carry on the discussion.
I’m not saying anything bad about the East at all! I love the East.
But it’s often lobbed at the West that we are disobediant and violating a council etc.etc.

Must admit I was feeling alittle bad. It kinda hurts being made to feel like a bad Catholic, when in fact I’m trying to be a good Catholic.
 
No. Read the linked commentary again. Also reread the quoted canon (and commentary) from the Qunisext Council which further clarifies that of Nicea.

In short, the canon does not apply to priests. Priestly posture during liturgical services is governed by the liturgical rubrics themselves, and there is little, if any, kneeling involved. Notice that even in the Latin Rite Usus Antiquior, the priest rarely kneels, and then only in particular services for specified feasts.

One must keep in mind that the Canons were originally in Greek. However, even in English, the word “should” does indeed express obligation. See here for example:
Gotcha. Wasn’t trying to be combative. :o
 
Your interpretation does not at all fit with how it has historically been understood. First of all, the canon does apply to the laity. Secondly, in the context of the Fathers of the Council of Nicea, kneeling was not understood as an act of adoration, but one of penitence.

However, there is a sense in which your understanding is correct. The canon was not a condemnation of laity (or clergy) kneeling in adoration (in their historical and cultural context, one would not have knelt in adoration, but as a sign of penitence or sorrow). It is because of the concern of this disciplinary canon that penitence and/or sorrow is inconsistent with the celebration of the Resurrection that kneeling was forbidden on Sundays. Therefore, as kneeling would later come to be associated with adoration in the West, this canon (which, as I noted above, is disciplinary, and not dogmatic), need not be understood as condemning later Western practices of kneeling in adoration.

I would also add that I, as an Eastern Catholic, do not kneel at celebrations of the Divine Liturgy, as I believe it to be inappropriate to our traditions. On the other hand, I see no problem with kneeling at the Roman Mass, and, in fact, when I attend Mass, I kneel at the appropriate times.
Thanks. 👍
 
I would like to know the historical context of that quote. It is very vague. It doesn’t specify if it is referring Priests or laity. It certainly doesn’t say laity are forbidden to kneel in adoration.
Well, the rule is that no one (clergy or laity) in the East kneels on Sundays or during the period between Easter and Pentecost.

In the East, kneeling has nothing to do with adoration, but with personal repentance.

Alex
 
So it is addressing Priests who celebrate the Liturgy.
Again, the word “should” was used and nowhere is there a condemnation of laity kneeling in adoration of their Lord on the Eucharist.
It actually says “no one” and is directed to all clergy and laity. This is how the Eastern Catholic Churches teach this today as well. Kneeling is again a sign of personal repentance in the East and has nothing to do with adoration.

Standing, on the other hand, symbolizes the Resurrection of Christ and so standing is appropriate on all Sundays (“Little Easters”) and throughout the Paschal season.

I believe the Latin Church has formally returned to the more ancient practice with respect to standing rather than kneeling (and this has all been explained).

I like the practice of kneeling in the Latin West and when I did so to receive Communion during the visit of Bl Pope John Paul II, I wasn’t told to stand or anything like that.

Alex
 
One time I was at a Ukrainian liturgy, and I saw something I never saw before or since. About a quarter of the parishoners knelt for the reading of the Gospel. Wish I had asked someone the reason behind it.
 
One time I was at a Ukrainian liturgy, and I saw something I never saw before or since. About a quarter of the parishoners knelt for the reading of the Gospel. Wish I had asked someone the reason behind it.
This is often done…at weekday Liturgies.
 
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