Why do so many on this forum ask for proof?

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aprilfloyd

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Why do so many on this forum ask for proof for any proposition, but when asked for the most basic proof - proof of god - they all start to ‘wiggle’ out of supplying any or to avoid questions or pose questions.

I understand that Churches and religions need the vagueness to maintain belief and mystery in their gods and maintain their position’s , but surely for human advancement we need to resolve this issue one way or other and if God does exist then some religions will fall by the wayside and we will all join up with the real One. If god does not exist we can all move on.
 
I’ve found people on here to be quite helpful in supplying evidence for the existence of God.
 
aprilfloyd said:
Why do so many on this forum ask for proof for any proposition, but when asked for the most basic proof - proof of god - they all start to ‘wiggle’ out of supplying any or to avoid questions or pose questions.

I understand that Churches and religions need the vagueness to maintain belief and mystery in their gods and maintain their position’s , but surely for human advancement we need to resolve this issue one way or other and if God does exist then some religions will fall by the wayside and we will all join up with the real One. If god does not exist we can all move on.
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It may be there are certain things we are not meant to KNOW in this life, and among them is whether G-d exists. We can have strong faith, beliefs, feelings, reason, logic, dreams, signs, miracles, visions, and so on; but NOT absolute knowledge and certainty (except for the Gnostics?). That knowledge is what awaits us in the afterlife. Meanwhile we can choose to have faith, hope, and charity here on Earth, which, after all, are not so bad!
 
CaptBell800 said:
I’ve found people on here to be quite helpful in supplying evidence for the existence of God.
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Can you share some and at the risk of being unkind can you share some proof that is a little tangible.
 
meltzerboy said:
It may be there are certain things we are not meant to KNOW in this life, and among them is whether G-d exists. We can have strong faith, beliefs, feelings, reason, logic, dreams, signs, miracles, visions, and so on; but NOT absolute knowledge and certainty (except for the Gnostics?). That knowledge is what awaits us in the afterlife. Meanwhile we can choose to have faith, hope, and charity here on Earth, which, after all, are not so bad!
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Thanks for the reply. I am kinda hoping there is not an afterlife or if so please not eternal 🙂
 
Recently in RCIA the deacon was explaining about how we read the OT in light of the NT and I wanted to ask (but instead opted for an easier question–I don’t like to put them on the spot, that’s what this site is for) How do we know that all the other mythologies of the world at the point when the Jewish people were forming theirs are false and the Judeo-Christian religion is true? Monotheism may be a step in the right direction while for all we know we’ve mis-identified this Jewish G-d who it seems gradually consented to include the rest of the world once His rules were established in an ethnic group.

I’ve never questioned the existence of God because I’m not very curious. I’ve always loved mythology, though, and I wonder how we came to dismiss all the other gods as demons and one supreme being as the One True God.

Anyway, there’s already ample evidence of the supernatural, the scientifically unexplained. And just like there’s one universe for the natural, I think it makes sense that there’s one supreme source and cause for the supernatural, that He’s good, and has an interest in the only sentient life-forms we know about.
 
aprilfloyd said:
Can you share some and at the risk of being unkind can you share some proof that is a little tangible.
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It isn’t proof as much as it is evidence; it points towards God’s existence and suggests it. For example, the way that anything exists. Why does the universe exist, what caused it to come into being? We do not know of any way that things can come into being by themselves while within this time and space. So even though it does not prove God’s existence, it suggests it.

I’d say that with both atheism and religion, at some point, you must rely on faith. You must look at the evidence, both scientific and historical, and weigh it. Then decide, based on faith, whether you believe God exists or does not exist. I liked the way I heard a priest on the radio say it once, “Faith is not a substitute for reason; faith picks up where reason ends. It is the far side of reason.”
 
aprilfloyd I cannot prove to you, or anyone else for that matter that GOD does exist any more than I can prove to you or anyone else that GOD doesn’t exist! As a matter of fact…nobody can! 😉

Much Peace!

Mike 🙂
 
aprilfloyd said:
Why do so many on this forum ask for proof for any proposition, but when asked for the most basic proof - proof of god - they all start to ‘wiggle’ out of supplying any or to avoid questions or pose questions.

I understand that Churches and religions need the vagueness to maintain belief and mystery in their gods and maintain their position’s , but surely for human advancement we need to resolve this issue one way or other and if God does exist then some religions will fall by the wayside and we will all join up with the real One. If god does not exist we can all move on.
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Probably because some statements people make can easily be proven or disproven with evidence. (Ex. 90% of citizens don’t pay taxes. The senator’s wife used to be Mormon. There are toxic chemicals in canned carrots.) Whereas the existance of God can’t be completely proven. It has to be taken on faith to some extent. There is plenty of evidence that has been revealed to individuals through the ages and even today, but it won’t be “proof” to someone without faith.
 
For those of us who have true Faith, we don’t need proof.

I’ll never understand this really, why people need proof for every single little thing. Why can’t something just BE, and be accepted?

I guess this is what is meant by “the faith of children”. I don’t have some massive driving need to know EVERYTHING about everything. I’m happy knowing that my Faith will sustain me, and that God is there. I don’t need anything else - I just believe.

🤷

~Liza
 
aprilfloyd said:
Can you share some and at the risk of being unkind can you share some proof that is a little tangible.
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What do you mean by “proof” and “evidence”? I ask this because I once had a remark directed at me that because the Resurrection could not be replicated in an experiment there was no evidence for it! My response that you could not replicate the Battle of Waterloo either but we know a great deal about that.

From here on my remarks are general. That is, I don’t want to attribute any views to you personally that you haven’t made and may not hold. Generally, the no evidence or no proof argument must be either disingenuous or based on ignorance. The academic and popular press publish far too many words discussing the evidence and arguments for and against Christianity or more specifically the existence of God as understood by Jews, Christians and some Deists. The internet overflows. What is being discussed here except evidence and arguments? Surely such people, if they are honest and not willfully ignorant, mean there is no evidence that is convincing to them which is a very different thing.

As an example which is tangible, St. Thomas starts with nature and proves the existence of nature’s God. This is, in principle, no different than physicists inferring the existence of dark matter from it’s effects on material things we can observe. The tangible historical, or at least it was to the witnesses, runs from before Mt. Sinai to Fatima and after.
 
aprilfloyd said:
Why do so many on this forum ask for proof for any proposition, but when asked for the most basic proof - proof of god - they all start to ‘wiggle’ out of supplying any or to avoid questions or pose questions.
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What would you want as proof? As a rabbi once said, you cannot put God upon an examining table.

Would a personal visitation suffice? Or would that be written off as a trick of the brain? Some bad shellfish eaten the night before caused you this odd hallucination. Just this, and nothing more.

Perhaps we’ll find a manuscript that has been verified to have been written by Pontius Pilot himself. In it, he substantiates the claims made by the Gospels. Will that be evidence? Or will it be, as some will undoubtedly argue, a manipulation? Perhaps monks in later periods added these sections. Or Pilot was lying and embellishing because he later converted (according to this manuscript).

Are you looking for scientific answers? A hidden code in nature’s matrix that points to God? Some already argue that there is, that by studying science you see God. But of course there are many who say we’re here solely by chance and over eons we’ve evolved to our current state and everything you are, feel and believe is hardwired into you by DNA like you’re a carbon-based circuit board. Maybe you’re more than just blood and sinew. Maybe those who believe in just materialism are the ones who are truly lost.

As Whitman wrote:

WHEN I heard the learn’d astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

God is there for all of us to see, April. Sometimes you must go outside and look.
 
Atticus_Sparrow said:
What would you want as proof? As a rabbi once said, you cannot put God upon an examining table.

Would a personal visitation suffice? Or would that be written off as a trick of the brain? Some bad shellfish eaten the night before caused you this odd hallucination. Just this, and nothing more.

Perhaps we’ll find a manuscript that has been verified to have been written by Pontius Pilot himself. In it, he substantiates the claims made by the Gospels. Will that be evidence? Or will it be, as some will undoubtedly argue, a manipulation? Perhaps monks in later periods added these sections. Or Pilot was lying and embellishing because he later converted (according to this manuscript).

Are you looking for scientific answers? A hidden code in nature’s matrix that points to God? Some already argue that there is, that by studying science you see God. But of course there are many who say we’re here solely by chance and over eons we’ve evolved to our current state and everything you are, feel and believe is hardwired into you by DNA like you’re a carbon-based circuit board. Maybe you’re more than just blood and sinew. Maybe those who believe in just materialism are the ones who are truly lost.

As Whitman wrote:

WHEN I heard the learn’d astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

God is there for all of us to see, April. Sometimes you must go outside and look.
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Wonderful and inspirational post!
 
aprilfloyd said:
Thanks for the reply. I am kinda hoping there is not an afterlife or if so please not eternal 🙂
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That may be the most honest thing I’ve seen you admit yet. So often Christians are accused of “wishful thinking”, but I think it was an atheist Huxley that blew the lid off that when he point-blank said he didn’t want there to be any meaning to life.
 
Mikeydell said:
aprilfloyd I cannot prove to you, or anyone else for that matter that GOD does exist any more than I can prove to you or anyone else that GOD doesn’t exist! As a matter of fact…nobody can! 😉

Much Peace!

Mike 🙂
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It is quite true that Catholics regard Faith as a gift from God. I would not believe in God if He had not given me the grace to believe. Nevertheless, that does not mean His existence cannot be proved.
 
Proof? The faith. That is a gift over and above reason that makes us certain.

“He could not do many miracles in that town because of their lack of faith.” Jesus

The gift of faith is real, something placed inside of us, a power to know for certain.

That is why we know when atheists do not know, but we have the power given to us from above.

“Blessed are you Simon for men have not revealed this(son of God) to you but my Father in heaven.”

That is our proof and the only one we really need because it comes from above.

However having said that, some do not exorcise it or only partially, or when it is convenient. And some have even lost it. A power must be used to be effective.

Now we use science and reason to help others toward recognizing and knowing God.

We use our reason to look deeper into our faith, or to seek further understanding.

And the faith that we have is in Jesus, who rased himself back to life, the only one ever to do this in any religion. And this is the core of our belief, for without this resurrection, we would have to say along with St. Paul, it is all for naught, we are the biggest dumbest fools ever to walk the face of the earth.

Just some meanderings.
 
Mikeydell said:
aprilfloyd I cannot prove to you, or anyone else for that matter that GOD does exist any more than I can prove to you or anyone else that GOD doesn’t exist! As a matter of fact…nobody can! 😉

Much Peace!

Mike 🙂
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I agree with that - so why do so many on this forum suggest to people with certainty that e.g. there is a Hell, or Gay Marriage is wrong, or Sex outside marriage is wrong and the Catholic church is ‘absolutely’ the right one, or the pope is infallible etc,. etc,

Preaching this to adults as ‘certainties’ is one thing - adults can take it or leave it - but to kids and scaring them with ideas of Hell. It’s all very strange.
 
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