Why do so many on this forum ask for proof?

[aprilfloyd]

We will call you Job.* Job c.3*

Ironic that I gave a reading from The Book of Job at my mum’s funeral

 

[aprilfloyd]

Proof? The faith. That is a gift over and above reason that makes us certain.

“He could not do many miracles in that town because of their lack of faith.” Jesus

The gift of faith is real, something placed inside of us, a power to know for certain.

That is why we know when atheists do not know, but we have the power given to us from above.

“Blessed are you Simon for men have not revealed this(son of God) to you but my Father in heaven.”

That is our proof and the only one we really need because it comes from above.

However having said that, some do not exorcise it or only partially, or when it is convenient. And some have even lost it. A power must be used to be effective.

Now we use science and reason to help others toward recognizing and knowing God.

We use our reason to look deeper into our faith, or to seek further understanding.

And the faith that we have is in Jesus, who rased himself back to life, the only one ever to do this in any religion. And this is the core of our belief, for without this resurrection, we would have to say along with St. Paul, it is all for naught, we are the biggest dumbest fools ever to walk the face of the earth.

Just some meanderings.

Thanks Fred, but these type of comments don’t help as they are similar to what other religions say and are used to get around the need to show proof. Some argue that maybe some humans have a propensity to belief in gods and others do not, and I am the latter

What is all for naught? I would rather live my whole life looking for truth and never finding it than live a lie and say ‘I believe’ - when I know inside I don’t - I can’t kid myself on. What would be the point. If that means going to Hell, then so be it, at least I would then have some proof!

 

[aprilfloyd]

It is quite true that Catholics regard Faith as a gift from God. I would not believe in God if He had not given me the grace to believe. Nevertheless, that does not mean His existence cannot be proved.

How would one prove it. ?

 

[CaptBell800]

Thanks Fred, but these type of comments don’t help as they are similar to what other religions say and are used to get around the need to show proof. Some argue that maybe some humans have a propensity to belief in gods and others do not, and I am the latter

What is all for naught? I would rather live my whole life looking for truth and never finding it than live a lie and say ‘I believe’ - when I know inside I don’t - I can’t kid myself on. What would be the point. If that means going to Hell, then so be it, at least I would then have some proof!

I mentioned it earlier, that there is certainly evidence, but there is no proof in the sense you mean it. Not one way or the other, either for God or for atheism. At one point, it becomes a matter of faith. You either say “I believe in God” or “I don’t believe in God”, but both statements are a matter of faith because of the limitations of reason. The other option is to just say “I don’t know”

 

[aprilfloyd]

What would you want as proof? As a rabbi once said, you cannot put God upon an examining table.

Would a personal visitation suffice? Or would that be written off as a trick of the brain? Some bad shellfish eaten the night before caused you this odd hallucination. Just this, and nothing more.

Perhaps we’ll find a manuscript that has been verified to have been written by Pontius Pilot himself. In it, he substantiates the claims made by the Gospels. Will that be evidence? Or will it be, as some will undoubtedly argue, a manipulation? Perhaps monks in later periods added these sections. Or Pilot was lying and embellishing because he later converted (according to this manuscript).

Are you looking for scientific answers? A hidden code in nature’s matrix that points to God? Some already argue that there is, that by studying science you see God. But of course there are many who say we’re here solely by chance and over eons we’ve evolved to our current state and everything you are, feel and believe is hardwired into you by DNA like you’re a carbon-based circuit board. Maybe you’re more than just blood and sinew. Maybe those who believe in just materialism are the ones who are truly lost.

As Whitman wrote:

WHEN I heard the learn’d astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

God is there for all of us to see, April. Sometimes you must go outside and look.

Like the Quote.

But if only Walt could see the beauty and majesty of the stars in and of themselves . I would like to feel free to gaze at the stars and not feel heaven or hell awaits me if I step out of line - according to whims of supernatural entity that watches me and my family 24/7. Created me, but tempts me to catch me out.

My sister loved nature and the hills and asked that her ashes be scattered at the top of one of her favourites and it seems very fitting, whilst not in line with church doctrine.

My desire to be free would simply be too strong - who is this arriviste who has turned up at this late hour after the creation of the universe with demands as lofty as ‘love me’ or else and as innocuous as don’t masturbate, although I gave you the urge. Like I have said in other posts Catholicism is baffling and halts human advancement sometimes acceptance in faith in so little - that means that we lose so much.

someone else mentioned here why don’t I just accept it. Why be so curious? But without curiosity about who what why and were we are we are nothing.

 

[CaptBell800]

Like the Quote.

But if only Walt could see the beauty and majesty of the stars in and of themselves . I would like to feel free to gaze at the stars and not feel heaven or hell awaits me if I step out of line - according to whims of supernatural entity that watches me and my family 24/7. Created me, but tempts me to catch me out.

My sister loved nature and the hills and asked that her ashes be scattered at the top of one of her favourites and it seems very fitting, whilst not in line with church doctrine.

My desire to be free would simply be too strong - who is this arriviste who has turned up at this late hour after the creation of the universe with demands as lofty as ‘love me’ or else and as innocuous as don’t masturbate, although I gave you the urge. Like I have said in other posts Catholicism is baffling and halts human advancement sometimes acceptance in faith in so little - that means that we lose so much.

someone else mentioned here why don’t I just accept it. Why be so curious? But without curiosity about who what why and were we are we are nothing.

I don’t think Catholicism holds back human advancement. I think it nourishes humanity.

 

[aprilfloyd]

What would constitute proof is a great question. I don’t know, it would need to be something that this whole internet connected world would believe.

Maybe no fighting or killing for just one day - I don’t know but would love to know what people think would constitute proof that we would all not assume was a trick or hallucination

 

[ColdComfort]

How would one prove it. ?

Listen. No-one is here to complete gaps in your education. Or to bang their head against a wall of willful ignorance. At least not me. If you are honestly unaware of Christian philosophy, Biblical and Church history than you need to start doing some reading. I find it hard to accept, although I don’t know you, that anyone would be completely unaware of the answers to your question.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Listen. No-one is here to complete gaps in your education. Or to bang their head against a wall of willful ignorance. At least not me. If you are honestly unaware of Christian philosophy, Biblical and Church history than you need to start doing some reading. I find it hard to accept, although I don’t know you, that anyone would be completely unaware of the answers to your question.

Well you met one and if memory serves 5 out of 6 people are not catholic and will be just as ignorant as me and i went to a catholic school. No one is here to do me a favour or educate me - but I would still be interested in answers. Always be curious to discover new things.

 

[Aloysium]

i don’t think there is proof of God
i have no idea what would constitute proof other than He Himself
look for Him, you will find Him

btw: God is Love, the eternal Ground of Being, infinite Goodness, Beauty and Truth; in Him we find our ultimate fulfillment. Any manifestation of any of these qualities, points to Him.

 

[Atticus_Sparrow]

Like the Quote.

But if only Walt could see the beauty and majesty of the stars in and of themselves . I would like to feel free to gaze at the stars and not feel heaven or hell awaits me if I step out of line - according to whims of supernatural entity that watches me and my family 24/7. Created me, but tempts me to catch me out.

I really feel this is the wrong way to look at God. Now, I am not a theologian by any stretch and am fairly new to Catholicism, but God is not waiting in shrubbery to leap out and yell, “Gotcha!” the moment you stumble.

Are there rules? Yes, much like anything else from relationships, government and math there are certain ground rules to follow. But they aren’t fickle rules. They build upon another, much like mathematical concepts build upon another, to bring you closer to God.

Stumbling isn’t a “Gotcha!” moment but a teachable moment. You learn, grow and keep moving.

My desire to be free would simply be too strong - who is this arriviste who has turned up at this late hour after the creation of the universe with demands as lofty as ‘love me’ or else and as innocuous as don’t masturbate, although I gave you the urge. Like I have said in other posts Catholicism is baffling and halts human advancement sometimes acceptance in faith in so little - that means that we lose so much.

It isn’t a love me or else proposition. Like i said, I’m new, and am ill equipped to argue theology or the catechism, so pardon me for being more general here. We’re all free to love God…or not. It is a choice. Is there a reward and punishment? Or is it more of an example you choosing your own adventure and the consequences are what they are? For example, I could choose to smoke cigarettes every day and I may eventually die of lung cancer. Is that my punishment or is it the natural, logical extension of the choices I’ve made?

We all have urges. Some positive and some negative. You may feel a strong desire to create art, music or to study the sciences and discover the secrets of the world. Those are very positive urges. Is sex a bad urge? Not at all, but it needs to be channeled into a positive entity, like marriage. Marriage is a creation, a union of separate souls into one. Masturbation is not and though we all fail at this from time to time it takes away from 1. loving another, i.e., a spouse and 2. we focus solely on ourselves, our enjoyment and it can become an over powering compunction that can be destructive.

What would constitute proof is a great question. I don’t know, it would need to be something that this whole internet connected world would believe.

That’s highly improbable. Take for example Fatima, where the Blessed Virgin appeared to hundreds (thousands?) and many reported seeing the sun dance across the sky. This is written off as a mass hallucination by skeptics.

Faith in God is personal and what is ironclad proof to one will be demonstrably false to another. You’ll never prove God exists in a lab. Just as you cannot prove love, justice, freedom or decency exists. But we know they do. God is there if you’re willing. As we say, “lift up your heart to Lord thy God.”

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks Fred, but these type of comments don’t help as they are similar to what other religions say and are used to get around the need to show proof. Some argue that maybe some humans have a propensity to belief in gods and others do not, and I am the latter

What is all for naught? I would rather live my whole life looking for truth and never finding it than live a lie and say ‘I believe’ - when I know inside I don’t - I can’t kid myself on. What would be the point. If that means going to Hell, then so be it, at least I would then have some proof!

Aprilfloyd, thank you for your response.

It was said,"…similar to what other religions say…".

I do not know of any other religious leader, such as a prophet, who rose HIMSELF from the dead after three days. Do you?
Notice I did not say their gods, but the man leader with two feet planted on solid ground, has never professed and proven before others to raise HIMSELF from the dead after three days. And raising other people from the dead is far different.

It was mentioned, “…live a lie and say ‘I believe’…”.
Nobody is asking anyone to do that.
My point about “faith” is that when someone has the faith, it is more certain than reason, because faith comes from above and reason comes from below.

And a third point mentioned, “If that means going to Hell, then so be it, at least I would then have some proof!”

But when a person finds themselves there, what proof do they have there that they didn’t have on earth that there is a God.
If they can’t see proof on earth when the earth turns on its axis just enough not to burn us up in the winter and freeze us solid in the summer, then how would they know that God exists in that place. Because there is no more poof there than on earth. Suffering of itself proves nothing except pain. They may ask why they are there, but then maybe the reason for them being there is taken away to be like they were on earth with no answer, no proof. They may have to live without proof there as they did on earth.

By the way, one way to the faith is Mary. She gave us the gift of the green scapular, and one of the benefits is to help one to the faith and restore the faith if they lost it.
They just put the sacpular in their wallet or purse, and say this prayer each day,
Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death.

Just some thoughts.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

All logic comes from starting points called axioms which are self evident truths from which conclusions (or postulates) can be made.

Faith seen in this light is a set of axioms and postulates. Therefore, the most fundamental aspects of faith (i.e. the axioms, for example “There is a Trinitarian God”) are, by definition, impossible to prove by themselves. It is by the validity of the postulates from that set of axioms can the most fundamental aspects of faith be proven to be true or not, i.e. by the lives affected by those set of axioms and postulates.

Which is why I always say that the best way to prove any religion is to look at the history of that religion.

Read this: “Everything Proves It” by Dale Ahlquist (“How do we know the Catholic faith is true? Because everything proves that it is true”).

For an exposition of the above, watch this: The Catholic Church, Builder of Civilization.

It is only by showing how right the Catholic Faith is compared to anything else on earth can we most conclusively say that the Catholic Faith is right in believing that there is a God.