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rbarcia
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Yes, and I repeat. They find skulls or a leg bone, etc… and construct phony transitional forms it is all based on guesses.
There is great danger in basing conclusions on a single bone. In 1922, paleontologist Henry Fairfield Osborn, an ardent evolutionist, was shown a single tooth found in Nebraska by geologist Harold Cook. After examining it, Osborn declared it belonged to an early ape-man, whom he named Hesperopithecus haroldcookii in Cook’s honor. Popularly, it became known as “Nebraska Man.” Osborn hailed the tooth as “the herald of anthropoid apes in America.” At the American Museum of Natural History, William K. Gregory and Milo Hellman, specialists in teeth, said after careful study that the tooth was from a species closer to man than ape. Harris Hawthorne Wilder, a zoology professor at Smith College, wrote: “Judging from the tooth alone the animal seems to have been about halfway between Pithecanthropus [Java Man] and the man of the present day, or perhaps better between Pithecanthropus and the man of the Neanderthal type. …” In England, evolutionist Grafton Elliot Smith convinced the Illustrated London News to publish an artist’s rendering of Nebraska Man. The picture, which appeared in a two-page spread and received wide distribution, showed two brutish, naked ape-persons, the male with a club, the female gathering roots. All this from one tooth. However, further excavations at Cook’s site revealed that the tooth belonged neither to ape nor man, but to a peccary, a close relative of the pig.
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rbarcia
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Or take the Piltdown Man. It was declared an ape-man, 500,000 years old, and validated by many of Britain’s leading scientists, including Grafton Elliot Smith, anatomist Sir Arthur Keith and British Museum geologist Arthur Smith Woodward. At the time the discovery was announced (1912), the New York Times ran this headline: “Darwin Theory Proved True.” For the next four decades, Piltdown Man was evolution’s greatest showcase, featured in textbooks and encyclopedias. But what did the Piltdown Man actually consist of? A very recent orangutan jaw, which had been stained to look old, with its teeth filed down to make them more human-looking, planted together with a human skull bone, also stained to create an appearance of age.
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rbarcia
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This sounds like Back to the future
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reteeks21
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I’ver never met a catholic who does, but after spent 29 years with my family I am convinced some of them have come from monkeys. Some of them haven’t even cpmpleted the evolution process!
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rbarcia
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Neanderthals were long portrayed as ape-men, stooped over. This misconception was largely the result of a faulty reconstruction by French paleontologist Marcellin Boule, who mistook the skeleton of a man with kyphosis (hunchback) for an ape-man in the process of becoming upright. Another snag: Neanderthal skulls are larger than those of modern humans. This flies in the face of evolutionary tradition, which says that man evolved progressively from creatures with smaller brains and skulls. In any event, Neanderthals are no longer classed as “ape-men,” and some evolutionists have even discarded them as human ancestors. Which basically leaves us with australopithecines, currently in vogue as man’s ancestor. However, australopithecine fossils show that they had long forearms and short hind legs, like today’s apes. They also had long curved fingers and toes, like those apes use for tree-swinging. This may pose a problem for Time’s thesis, since it claims the toe bone of Ardipithecus ramidus kadabba was over 5 million years old, yet relatively human-like implying that it was more evolved than the toes of australopithecines, who supposedly came 2 million years later. The main substance to the claim that australopithecines are our ancestors is some evidence suggesting that the famed “Lucy” and her peers may have walked upright. But as noted, limited bipedality does not prove human ancestry, and a number of scientists contrary to the impression created in Time have disagreed that australopithecines are man’s relatives. Britain’s Lord Solly Zuckerman, who was raised to peerage for his scientific achievements, was a leading authority on australopithecines, having subjected them to years of biometric testing. He stated:
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solayan
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A note on semantics when dealing with things like Genesis:
literal is not the same as true
factual is not the same as true
The parables of Jesus are neither literal nor factual, but they are true.
If storytelling as a way to understand God is good enough for Jesus then it’s good enough for me. I can believe the creation story in Genesis is 100% true without believing God created the universe in six 24 hour periods.
literal is not the same as true
factual is not the same as true
The parables of Jesus are neither literal nor factual, but they are true.
If storytelling as a way to understand God is good enough for Jesus then it’s good enough for me. I can believe the creation story in Genesis is 100% true without believing God created the universe in six 24 hour periods.
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Pixie_Dust
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FYI, if you are copying/pasting this from somewhere you need to cite your source, otherwise it’s plagiarism.
Re: This thread - I am a Catholic who sits firmly on the fence.
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, I just won’t declare how long ago that happened since I wasn’t there.
I don’t believe there were pre-human prototypes before Adam and Eve, like God couldn’t get it right the first time (though some say God made man, thought, “Surely I can do better than this!” and made woman
).We don’t know how long (3 days, 3 weeks, 3 billion years?) Adam and Eve were in the Garden before the Fall. I know that the Bible tells us how old Adam was when he died, but did they “age” before the Fall? Did they only begin counting the years of his life when he began to die? Those answers aren’t found in Genesis.
As you’ve pointed out, sometimes scientists will unintentionally put bones together that don’t belong together. A friend of mine was heartbroken when he learned that his favorite dinosaur, the brontosaurus, never existed. They’d put the wrong skull on the body.
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rbarcia
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Genesis is not a parable. When Jesus spoke in parable, you knew He was telling a parable. The text is clear. And when He performed a miracle, the results were instant.
Jesus said
Mat 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who** made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,**
Was Jesus speaking in parable here?
God spoke the world into existence:
**
Psalm 33:6-9
“By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast”
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That word is Christ
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John 1:1-3
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made”
Colossians 1:16–17
“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist”
**
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rbarcia
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Sure:
answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/did-jesus-say-he-created-in-six-days
amazon.com/Battle-Beginning-John-MacArthur/dp/0849916259
Bible
Re: This thread - I am a Catholic who sits firmly on the fence.
Well God witnessed His creation. He inspired the writer of Genesis (most likely Moses), and therefore His witness in Gen 1 is the best form of witness I could have.
Not sure what pre-human means. But Death did not enter the world until Adam sinned.I don’t believe there were pre-human prototypes before Adam and Eve, like God couldn’t get it right the first time (though some say God made man, thought, “Surely I can do better than this!” and made woman
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
And Adam is listed in Jesus’ Genealogy in Luke.
But God created Him as an adult man.
Exactly, I appreciate your comments. In general I fear people put a lot of faith in evolution when almost all of macro evolution is based on guesses.As you’ve pointed out, sometimes scientists will unintentionally put bones together that don’t belong together. A friend of mine was heartbroken when he learned that his favorite dinosaur, the brontosaurus, never existed. They’d put the wrong skull on the body.
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Contarini
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Contarini
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First of all, you are assuming that any nonliteral narrative in the Bible is going to be just like one of Jesus’ parables. (I know that this may be an assumption of the post you’re responding to as well.) And in the second place, your claim that all parables are clearly labeled as such is just an assumption. It can’t possibly have any bearing on the discussion because it assumes the point you are trying to prove. The question is whether there are nonliteral narratives in the Bible other than those narratives clearly labeled as parables. And you are simply responding, “No, there aren’t.” It’s assertion, not argument. It gets you nowhere with those not already convinced.
So could you possibly give some reasons for your position? Why do you think that all nonliteral narratives in the Bible are clearly marked “parable”?
Furthermore, I’ll give you one obvious counterexample. It’s clear that the Book of Revelation is nonliteral in many places. For instance, no one thinks that Revelation 13 is talking about a literal seven-headed animal. Yet the word “parable” never appears in Revelation. Rather, we know from the implicit cues in the text that we are dealing with a nonliteral genre–apocalyptic literature (which of course occurs also in Daniel and some other places). The Bible doesn’t say so in so many words. We have to look at the style and the context and at other similar works of literature outside the Bible in order to understand what kind of writing this is.
Edwin
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Contarini
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rbarcia
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Because I believe God’s word to be true.
John 17
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
We believe that the first reference to Jesus in Prophecy is in Gen 3:15 in the Fall. If this did not really happen, then neither did hte prophecy. Same for things like sin, if sin did not enter here, then the belief in Christ saving us becomes questionable.
Jesus spoke as if creation was literal.
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rbarcia
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The Pentateuch claims in many places that Moses was the writer, e.g. Exodus 17:14; 24:4–7; 34:27; Numbers 33:2; Deuteronomy 31:9, 22, 24.
Many times in the rest of the Old Testament, Moses is said to have been the writer, e.g. Joshua 1:7–8; 8:32–34; Judges 3:4; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6; 21:8; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 8:1; 13:1; Daniel 9:11–13.
In the New Testament, Jesus frequently spoke of Moses’ writings or the Law of Moses, e.g. Matthew 8:4; 19:7–8; Mark 7:10; 12:26; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:46–47; 7:19. Jesus said that those who ‘hear not * Moses’ would not be persuaded ‘though one rose from the dead’ (Luke 16:31). Thus we see that those churches and seminaries which reject the historicity of Moses’ writings often also reject the literal bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Other New Testament speakers/writers said the same thing, e.g. John 1:17; Acts 6:14; 13:39; 15:5; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 2 Corinthians 3:15; Hebrews 10:28.*
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Pixie_Dust
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Give this one a look: Answers in Creation
Yes, God inspired Moses to write it, but the story was passed down through the years before Moses orally. Genesis: Finding our Roots by Ruth Beechick would be an excellent addition to your library.
Amen!
Naturally.
Right, so one year after his creation was he 1, 21 or 31? Did the Fall happen within that first year? We don’t know exactly how “old” God made him, and we don’t know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden in their perfect, un-aging and un-dying condition before the Fall.
Yep- we also share DNA with a fruit fly, but no scientist worth his salt would say that we evolved from fruit flies!
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solayan
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The Old and New Testaments are written in a variety of literary styles, so I agree that a one to one comparison of Genesis with the parables doesn’t make sense. The point I was trying to make was about storytelling in general.
Genesis isn’t framed the same way that the parables are, but it’s literary style reflects the time in which it was written and, in turn, a way of telling stories and of reading and understanding that can seem foreign to us today.
The people who first read the creation story in Genesis didn’t see the world the same way we do, and didn’t understand concepts like ‘science’ and ‘history’ the way we do today.
The Bible is inspired, not dictated, and therefore carries with it the cultures and styles of it’s inspired authors. They used literary devices to help tell their stories, meaning that not everything they wrote is necessarily literal.
What I’m trying to say with all this, is that we shouldn’t be obliged to take a literal interpretation of everything in the creation story in Genesis. That doesn’t mean you can’t if you want to.
Personally, I don’t think that God created the universe in 6 24 hour days, but He could have.
Genesis isn’t framed the same way that the parables are, but it’s literary style reflects the time in which it was written and, in turn, a way of telling stories and of reading and understanding that can seem foreign to us today.
The people who first read the creation story in Genesis didn’t see the world the same way we do, and didn’t understand concepts like ‘science’ and ‘history’ the way we do today.
The Bible is inspired, not dictated, and therefore carries with it the cultures and styles of it’s inspired authors. They used literary devices to help tell their stories, meaning that not everything they wrote is necessarily literal.
What I’m trying to say with all this, is that we shouldn’t be obliged to take a literal interpretation of everything in the creation story in Genesis. That doesn’t mean you can’t if you want to.
Personally, I don’t think that God created the universe in 6 24 hour days, but He could have.
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rbarcia
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As an engineer, similarities in things that are engineered are based on patterns. So SWG is designed with common patterns, buildings are built with the same proven architecture patterns. So when we look at ‘man-made things’, when we see something made the same way, we can conclude design. This is why for example, a technical company sues another because of patent infringement. Because the design is the same.Give this one a look: Answers in Creation
Yes, God inspired Moses to write it, but the story was passed down through the years before Moses orally. Genesis: Finding our Roots by Ruth Beechick would be an excellent addition to your library.
Amen!
Naturally.
Right, so one year after his creation was he 1, 21 or 31? Did the Fall happen within that first year? We don’t know exactly how “old” God made him, and we don’t know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden in their perfect, un-aging and un-dying condition before the Fall.
Yep- we also share DNA with a fruit fly, but no scientist worth his salt would say that we evolved from fruit flies!
So I look at similarities of DNA the same way. The fact that there is so much similarities, is proof enough that it was all engineered.
Since we are made in God’s image, we naturally follow the patterns of our great engineer.
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rbarcia
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I was raised catholic, but you should not assume that I am looking for a fight.
In general, I do not remember putting that in my profile. I wonder if someone hacked into my account?
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ralphinal
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