Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?

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“In the second verse we are given the answer: “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God…” (12: 2). The two decisive words of this verse are “transformed” and “renewal”. We must become new people, transformed into a new mode of existence. The world is always in search of novelty because, rightly, it is always dissatisfied with concrete reality. Paul tells us: the world cannot be renewed without new people. Only if there are new people will there also be a new world, a renewed and better world. In the beginning is the renewal of the human being. This subsequently applies to every individual. Only if we ourselves become new does the world become new. This also means that it is not enough to adapt to the current situation. The Apostle exhorts us to non-conformism. In our Letter he says: we should not submit to the logic of our time. We shall return to this point, reflecting on the second text on which I wish to meditate with you this evening. The Apostle’s “no” is clear and also convincing for anyone who observes the “logic” of our world. But to become new how can this be done? Are we really capable of it? With his words on becoming new, Paul alludes to his own conversion: to his encounter with the Risen Christ, an encounter of which, in the Second Letter to the Corinthians he says: “if anyone is in Christ, he is in a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (5: 17). This encounter with Christ was so overwhelming for him that he said of it: “I… died…” (Gal 2: 19; cf. Rm 6). He became new, another, because he no longer lived for himself and by virtue of himself, but for Christ and in him. In the course of the years, however, he also saw that this process of renewal and transformation continues throughout life. We become new if we let ourselves be grasped and shaped by the new Man, Jesus Christ. He is the new Man par excellence. In him the new human existence became reality and we can truly become new if we deliver ourselves into his hands and let ourselves be moulded by him.”

–Pope Benedict XVI
 
"Paul makes this process of “recasting” even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with “way of thinking” is the Greek term “nous”. It is a complex word. It may be translated as “spirit”, “sentiments”, “reason”, and precisely, also by “way of thinking”. Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations. The reasoning of the former person, the common way of thinking is usually directed to possession, well-being, influence, success, fame and so forth. Yet in this way its scope is too limited. Thus, in the final analysis, one’s “self” remains the centre of the world. We must learn to think more profoundly. St Paul tells us what this means in the second part of the sentence: it is necessary to learn to understand God’s will, so that it may shape our own will. This is in order that we ourselves may desire what God desires, because we recognize that what God wants is the beautiful and the good. It is therefore a question of a turning point in our fundamental spiritual orientation. God must enter into the horizon of our thought: what he wants and the way in which he conceived of the world and of me. We must learn to share in the thinking and the will of Jesus Christ. It is then that we will be new people in whom a new world emerges.

Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful."

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
 
Because they are American as well as Catholic. There can be separation of Church and state.

Just as with divorce, legal but immoral. No one is forcing Catholics to divorce. No one is forcing Catholics to have abortions. Catholics are able to live their religion. It is not a requirement for all the population to practice Catholicism for some to practice it. We don’t live in a theocracy.
I think you’ll find in your everyday life that there are many Catholics who feel the same way as you describe above. They don’t have to like it, and they don’t have to support it, but they recognize not that all cultures/religions have the same rules that the Catholic Church has regarding abortion. In our multicultural society, they will be many different views. For example, in the Jewish and Muslim teachings, they allow abortion in the case of the woman’s health being at risk. This is actually part of their religion’s teachings and a part of their faith. They have the right to live their lives within the teachings of their own religion, just as Catholics do.
 
An unjust law is simply by definition–* not a law*.

No law can be made to permit abortion. Period.

It is the among the most fundamental rights possessed by everyone everywhere.

And is not given by Government and if any law is made permitting abortion it is an unjust law and thus no real law.

Just as the law stating Jews are to be rounded up and murdered was a very very unjust law and not a law by a crime against human nature et al
The above post is kind of odd to me because there is a law permitting abortion, and it is a real law, and claiming it’s not a law is just not true.
 
What I think I am saying is: In order to be Catholic in the USA the laws of the Land don’t have to follow Catholic Doctrine. It is clear what the Church says about abortion. Not all self identifying Catholics hold true to Catholic Doctrine. We should follow our consciences, informed by our faith for those that have one, experience and study.

We should as citizens work to the betterment of society as we see fit. Religion in and of itself falls short for a reason why something should be adapted universally. It should inform the process if it part of your life. But you must recognize that “God says so” makes many close off to any further discourse. The value should be determined and shown at a societal level because we are not a Theocracy.
Well I think I agree with that! To me it sounded as though you were arguing that Catholics should be at least totally ok with the fact that abortion is legal, and maybe that they should, or could legitimately support it. (I realize that there are some non-practicing and even some practicing catholics who disagree with the Church on this issue, and perhaps I could understand some of them supporting it, so long as they really don’t believe that they are supporting the killing of an innocent human being, but I’m referring to catholics who accept the church teaching that life begins at conception) I think thats why everyone jumped on you immediately. the thread was asking for the reasons Catholics support abortion.
 
The above post is kind of odd to me because there is a law permitting abortion, and it is a real law, and claiming it’s not a law is just not true.
This from the Catechism can be of help:

"1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:21
Code:
A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22"
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm#1902
 
This from the Catechism can be of help:

"1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:21
Code:
A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22"
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm#1902
I’m sorry, it doesn’t help, because the fact that the law permitting abortion is as clear as day. And those who do not recognize or subject themselves to the laws and rules of the Church will just ignore the rules of the Church. However, the State does command a certain authority with tangible evidence of their authority and this tangible authority is what drives people’s thoughts and actions, even Catholics. The Church commands as much authority as one voluntarily gives to the Church.
 
Well I think I agree with that! To me it sounded as though you were arguing that Catholics should be at least totally ok with the fact that abortion is legal, and maybe that they should, or could legitimately support it. (I realize that there are some non-practicing and even some practicing catholics who disagree with the Church on this issue, and perhaps I could understand some of them supporting it, so long as they really don’t believe that they are supporting the killing of an innocent human being, but I’m referring to catholics who accept the church teaching that life begins at conception) I think thats why everyone jumped on you immediately. the thread was asking for the reasons Catholics support abortion.
That is where the conscience comes into play. I know many self identifying Catholics that are at odds with the Church about abortion and Gay marriage etc. So where some may discount their “Catholicism” they cling to it as much as any “Properly Catechized” Catholic.

Science (like viability of the fetus), constitutionality as well as dogma comes into play in their political decisions. It’s not as clear as the Church says “x” so I must do “y”. And just because they support it politically doesn’t mean that they support it personally. Meaning that they wouldn’t choose it for themselves but think others should have the choice.
 
That is where the conscience comes into play. I know many self identifying Catholics that are at odds with the Church about abortion and Gay marriage etc. So where some may discount their “Catholicism” they cling to it as much as any “Properly Catechized” Catholic.

Science (like viability of the fetus), constitutionality as well as dogma comes into play in their political decisions. It’s not as clear as the Church says “x” so I must do “y”. And just because they support it politically doesn’t mean that they support it personally. Meaning that they wouldn’t choose it for themselves but think others should have the choice.
So you’re just saying that catholics that don’t fully agree with the church would support abortion because they don’t think its murder and so disagree withthe church on that issue?
 
So you’re just saying that catholics that don’t fully agree with the church would support abortion because they don’t think its murder and so disagree withthe church on that issue?
Surely that’s the case. These same “Catholics” place greater value on what they perceive as freedom than they do on moral structure, which is counterproductive since the protection of morals is the very fabric of any civilized society… When morals become degraded, what typically follows is anarchy,chaos, then finally desolation -such as we in places around the world where Christian lands become taken and changed into something else.

The mentioning of science however seems odd too, because science agrees that after conception, the sperm and egg unite in the creation of a completely new DNA sequence with all the information predetermined for cell structure for the entire lifespan of the new individuals life… It really is a new human being which I believe has a soul.

Science and religion can agree here.
 
So you’re just saying that catholics that don’t fully agree with the church would support abortion because they don’t think its murder and so disagree withthe church on that issue?
Well yeah, if you put it that way 😉 -

I think they look at the Church as the deposit of the Faith but look for their science elsewhere. Their decision process doesn’t end with the dogma.
 
places around the world where Christian lands become taken and changed into something else.
This is an archaic view - do you see the USA as part of the Holy Roman Empire?
The mentioning of science however seems odd too, because science agrees that after conception, the sperm and egg unite in the creation of a completely new DNA sequence with all the information predetermined for cell structure for the entire lifespan of the new individuals life… It really is a new human being which I believe has a soul.

Science and religion can agree here.
The person-hood is what is debatable. Science doesn’t account for a soul so can hardly agree with religion.
 
However, the State does command a certain authority with tangible evidence of their authority and this tangible authority is what drives people’s thoughts and actions, even Catholics.

Well we would have to get into a whole course on the various natures of Law (one I am not able to do) – but yes as we see the State --lets take what China has done – can enforce their “laws” --can force people to do things–“or else”. It is not a question of that. Should we then say “well China can make whatever laws they want”? No.
 
Adolphus

But our experience isn’t just dogma. We are informed by our lives, by our relationships, and by our actions. “and they will know we are Christians by our love” not by our Catechism.

Circular reasoning.

It is our Catholic catechism that teaches us to love. It teaches us also to love the unborn child. How can Catholics claim to be Catholics when they disagree with the very document that teaches them how to be Catholic?
 
What is personhood?
The point that the fetus is considered a person. It is not viable outside the womb before 22 weeks, so some consider this not Independant personhood.
 
This is an archaic view - do you see the USA as part of the Holy Roman Empire?
No, but the USA has always been a Christian majority… Once our numbers drop to the minority, and immorality increases, we can expect to see increased chaos, like any other third world country… If Islam (anti-christ) fills the gap, we can expect even more rapid desolation.
The person-hood is what is debatable. Science doesn’t account for a soul so can hardly agree with religion.
This is simply not true, science does agree with the Vatican. Science understands that after conception a New individual with a unique and complete DNA sequence does indeed exist…

Science does not attempt to debate “personhood” as you falsely
Claim, since science states that the consciousness of the mind is based on experience alone -and personhood is undefinable without explaining “consciousness”… Also the fetus as well as the infant cannot live imdependently without the mothers bodily fluids (e.g. Breastmilk).

But the point is that the personhood argument is not a scientific argument at all… It’s a stretch.
 
The point that the fetus is considered a person. It is not viable outside the womb before 22 weeks, so some consider this not Independant personhood.
So a fetus is a person because of complete DNA which is already programmed to control cell structure for the entirety of the individual’s life, but it’s not a person because it cannot survive independently…:confused:

Like I said, neither a newborn or even an adolescent can typically survive on their own without help. So they’re not “people” either then.

The personhood argument is a made-up argument.
 
The point that the fetus is considered a person. It is not viable outside the womb before 22 weeks, so some consider this not Independant personhood.
Some think you should be able to kill your kid up until age 2 years outside the womb too.

The bottom line is that one may not intentionally kill any child from conception onward.

It does not matter if some may think one can or do not accept them being persons until they are 12 or 18 when the leave home…

One simply can not do so anywhere or for any reason.

Just as those who think say that Jews are not persons or blacks etc etc. are not persons and can be killed…the fact that some have this thought or belief does not make it right to do so.

In some places --other ethic groups are murdered outright as not having the right to live…because the majority in power think this is the case.

It simply can not be done -no matter who is in power (Hitler) or what the so called “law” is.

No Government has the “power” in reality to trample on such…and when they do …they do very wrong.

There are fundamental rights that are not “given” by the Government…and cannot be trampled on by the Government.

This is part of the very thing that the foundational documents of America speak about…we hold these truths to be self evident…
 
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