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Adolphus_WC
Guest
I don’t think you can. Every society that ever existed has risen and fallen. We are constantly in process.
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Bookcat
Guest
“Guest appearance” on Catholic Answers Forum…
Q: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?
A: Pope Benedict XVI:
"It strikes me as significant that here in America, unlike many places in Europe, the secular mentality has not been intrinsically opposed to religion. Within the context of the separation of Church and State, American society has always been marked by a fundamental respect for religion and its public role, and, if polls are to be believed, the American people are deeply religious. But it is not enough to count on this traditional religiosity and go about business as usual, even as its foundations are being slowly undermined. A serious commitment to evangelization cannot prescind from a profound diagnosis of the real challenges the Gospel encounters in contemporary American culture.
Of course, what is essential is a correct understanding of the just autonomy of the secular order, an autonomy which cannot be divorced from God the Creator and his saving plan (cf. Gaudium et Spes, 36). Perhaps America’s brand of secularism poses a particular problem: it allows for professing belief in God, and respects the public role of religion and the Churches, but at the same time it can subtly reduce religious belief to a lowest common denominator. Faith becomes a passive acceptance that certain things “out there” are true, but without practical relevance for everyday life. The result is a growing separation of faith from life: living “as if God did not exist”. This is aggravated by an individualistic and eclectic approach to faith and religion: far from a Catholic approach to “thinking with the Church”, each person believes he or she has a right to pick and choose, maintaining external social bonds but without an integral, interior conversion to the law of Christ. Consequently, rather than being transformed and renewed in mind, Christians are easily tempted to conform themselves to the spirit of this age (cf. Rom 12:3). We have seen this emerge in an acute way in the scandal given by Catholics who promote an alleged right to abortion.
On a deeper level, secularism challenges the Church to reaffirm and to pursue more actively her mission in and to the world. As the Council made clear, the lay faithful have a particular responsibility in this regard. What is needed, I am convinced, is a greater sense of the intrinsic relationship between the Gospel and the natural law on the one hand, and, on the other, the pursuit of authentic human good, as embodied in civil law and in personal moral decisions. In a society that rightly values personal liberty, the Church needs to promote at every level of her teaching – in catechesis, preaching, seminary and university instruction – an apologetics aimed at affirming the truth of Christian revelation, the harmony of faith and reason, and a sound understanding of freedom, seen in positive terms as a liberation both from the limitations of sin and for an authentic and fulfilling life. In a word, the Gospel has to be preached and taught as an integral way of life, offering an attractive and true answer, intellectually and practically, to real human problems. The “dictatorship of relativism”, in the end, is nothing less than a threat to genuine human freedom, which only matures in generosity and fidelity to the truth."
(vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080416_response-bishops_en.html)
Q: Why do some Catholics support legal abortion?
A: Pope Benedict XVI:
"It strikes me as significant that here in America, unlike many places in Europe, the secular mentality has not been intrinsically opposed to religion. Within the context of the separation of Church and State, American society has always been marked by a fundamental respect for religion and its public role, and, if polls are to be believed, the American people are deeply religious. But it is not enough to count on this traditional religiosity and go about business as usual, even as its foundations are being slowly undermined. A serious commitment to evangelization cannot prescind from a profound diagnosis of the real challenges the Gospel encounters in contemporary American culture.
Of course, what is essential is a correct understanding of the just autonomy of the secular order, an autonomy which cannot be divorced from God the Creator and his saving plan (cf. Gaudium et Spes, 36). Perhaps America’s brand of secularism poses a particular problem: it allows for professing belief in God, and respects the public role of religion and the Churches, but at the same time it can subtly reduce religious belief to a lowest common denominator. Faith becomes a passive acceptance that certain things “out there” are true, but without practical relevance for everyday life. The result is a growing separation of faith from life: living “as if God did not exist”. This is aggravated by an individualistic and eclectic approach to faith and religion: far from a Catholic approach to “thinking with the Church”, each person believes he or she has a right to pick and choose, maintaining external social bonds but without an integral, interior conversion to the law of Christ. Consequently, rather than being transformed and renewed in mind, Christians are easily tempted to conform themselves to the spirit of this age (cf. Rom 12:3). We have seen this emerge in an acute way in the scandal given by Catholics who promote an alleged right to abortion.
On a deeper level, secularism challenges the Church to reaffirm and to pursue more actively her mission in and to the world. As the Council made clear, the lay faithful have a particular responsibility in this regard. What is needed, I am convinced, is a greater sense of the intrinsic relationship between the Gospel and the natural law on the one hand, and, on the other, the pursuit of authentic human good, as embodied in civil law and in personal moral decisions. In a society that rightly values personal liberty, the Church needs to promote at every level of her teaching – in catechesis, preaching, seminary and university instruction – an apologetics aimed at affirming the truth of Christian revelation, the harmony of faith and reason, and a sound understanding of freedom, seen in positive terms as a liberation both from the limitations of sin and for an authentic and fulfilling life. In a word, the Gospel has to be preached and taught as an integral way of life, offering an attractive and true answer, intellectually and practically, to real human problems. The “dictatorship of relativism”, in the end, is nothing less than a threat to genuine human freedom, which only matures in generosity and fidelity to the truth."
(vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080416_response-bishops_en.html)
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Lapey
Guest
Actually you do speak other than Church teaching. What you don’t understand is that when you speak like you have you are fighting for the opposition to God’s teaching. So I would say that you have espoused nothing but secular view. The Pope himself has been giving us warnings about secularism.
And your assumption proves once again the old adage, “when you assume, you make a you know what out of you and me.” However in this case it is only you. I have stated my answer many times. Yes a fetus has a right to life, no, no-one has a right to force anyone to donate anything. As I have said repeatedly this is comparing apples and oranges and ludicrous.
Your last statement doesn’t even deserve a response. Now you are just being condescending because I must be a flat earther and a knuckle dragger.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Adolphus
**As I stated earlier many self identifying Catholics take a live and let live attitude. They are not being forced to commit immorality so they let others live as they wish. Divorce, contraception and homosexuality are other examples outside of abortion. We recognize that there are people in society outside the faith. If they allow us to live as we wish, we will allow them to live as they wish. **
Unfortunately, they do not allow others to live period. They kill them before they are even born.
You have apparently never heard the wise old adage:
The reason evil men triumph is that good men stand around doing nothing.
In this case, it’s the Catholics who say “Go ahead, kill the children. Just don’t kill me.”
It won’t necessarily take the killers very long to get around to thinking they can kill us too.
**As I stated earlier many self identifying Catholics take a live and let live attitude. They are not being forced to commit immorality so they let others live as they wish. Divorce, contraception and homosexuality are other examples outside of abortion. We recognize that there are people in society outside the faith. If they allow us to live as we wish, we will allow them to live as they wish. **
Unfortunately, they do not allow others to live period. They kill them before they are even born.
You have apparently never heard the wise old adage:
The reason evil men triumph is that good men stand around doing nothing.
In this case, it’s the Catholics who say “Go ahead, kill the children. Just don’t kill me.”
It won’t necessarily take the killers very long to get around to thinking they can kill us too.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Of course the Pope is against Secularism, it is in competition for hearts and minds. It’s been this way since the enlightenment.
I knew your answer, but wanted to hear you say it. That is the view your opposition has. It is two desires in conflict with one another. A developing life and the woman that gives that life fertile ground to grow. If she doesn’t want to give the ground what is to be done. If there is no pull from the Church, how do you regulate it. In a secular government you must have a better reason than it is the will of God. You can’t have a better reason if you don’t explore it.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
I don’t see it that way. As I’ve stated before with Divorce is immoral but I’m not forced to do it because it’s legal. I’m not going to stand in someones way, they are Adults.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Adolphus
**If there is no pull from the Church, how do you regulate it. In a secular government you must have a better reason than it is the will of God. You can’t have a better reason if you don’t explore it. **
How about this reason? We shouldn’t be killing our children. That secular enough for you?
**If there is no pull from the Church, how do you regulate it. In a secular government you must have a better reason than it is the will of God. You can’t have a better reason if you don’t explore it. **
How about this reason? We shouldn’t be killing our children. That secular enough for you?
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Adolphus
**I don’t see it that way. As I’ve stated before with Divorce is immoral but I’m not forced to do it because it’s legal. I’m not going to stand in someones way, they are Adults. **
Don’t try to change the subject. We are talking about life and death here.
**I don’t see it that way. As I’ve stated before with Divorce is immoral but I’m not forced to do it because it’s legal. I’m not going to stand in someones way, they are Adults. **
Don’t try to change the subject. We are talking about life and death here.
T
thewanderer
Guest
See, this is the argument that bugs me. Its like you’re saying anybody can do whatever they want and we should never try to put restrictions on that. Why bother having any laws at all then? After all, shouldn’t ‘Adults’ be able to do what they like?
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Not everyone agrees that they are Children at conception. So that fails as well. You can say life is present but saying it’s human being is another.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Not changing the subject, I am drawing a correlation. Contraception is immoral but legal, I don’t have to use contraception because it’s legal. No Catholic has to have an abortion because it’s legal.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
No we are a nation of laws. Homosexuality - it’s legal but immoral. It doesn’t effect my life if my neighbor is gay. They are a good neighbor and that’s enough.
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Lapey
Guest
Do not need any other reason then God’s way is right.
I think I am done, you are too smart for me.
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Lapey
Guest
But it does affect me when the term marriage is applied to their gay relationship. Marriage is of God, not government.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
There are courthouse marriages. Do all courthouse marriages affect you? Do all divorces affect you?
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drmrclr
Guest
Hey! I’ve been following this for a while, and I’d like to say that I admire your bravery to bring other POV’s to this thread, especially since a lot of Catholics take this very seriously… So, thanks.
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Lapey
Guest
Marriage is a creation of God, one man and one woman. A civil union, maybe; a marriage no.
Just like the orriginal topic, abortion is intrinsically eveil, so is same sex marriage. Doesn’t matter what you and the athiest culture say, truth is truth.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
No, you were dodging me. I know the Church’s stance. Our Government is a secular government as much as you wish it wasn’t so. It was designed that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolphus WC View Post
Of course the Pope is against Secularism, it is in competition for hearts and minds. It’s been this way since the enlightenment. You missed the entire point.
I knew your answer, but wanted to hear you say it.I had already said it in severl posts, you were too busy thinking to listen. That is the view your opposition has. It is two desires in conflict with one another. A developing life and the woman that gives that life fertile ground to grow. If she doesn’t want to give the ground what is to be done.How about not kill the baby, its quite simple. Killing is killing, even though it is a legal choice. If there is no pull from the Church, how do you regulate it. In a secular government you must have a better reason than it is the will of God. Our government was not set up as a secular government. It was and is set up as a Christian nation. The more secularism sneaks in, the more the certainty of it falling grows.You can’t have a better reason if you don’t explore it.
Do not need any other reason then God’s way is right.
I think I am done, you are too smart for me.
Do not need any other reason then God’s way is right.
I think I am done, you are too smart for me.
One example From the Treaty of Tripoli - John Adams 1797
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Do not need any other reason then God’s way is right.
I think I am done, you are too smart for me.
So you’re saying courthouse marriages aren’t marriages.
Tell me exactly how two men sharing a bed in the house across the street ruins your life.
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Adolphus_WC
Guest
Being lapsed affords me some leewayHey! I’ve been following this for a while, and I’d like to say that I admire your bravery to bring other POV’s to this thread, especially since a lot of Catholics take this very seriously… So, thanks.
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