why do some Christians reply to the question "What denomination are you?" with...

[PRmerger]

If the members of the magisterium are christians, then the Holy Spirit does live in them. That doesn’t mean that he gives them the power to comprehend the full meaning of scripture any more than he gives it to you or me. I believe the christian life is a process of gaining understanding of God and becoming closer to him as we mature as christians. God commanded us to be baptized. If I follow his command, understand that to mean that we should wait until we reach the age of reason and make the decision to follow Christ to be baptized, will I be condemned because of that? If I participate in the lord’s supper as he commanded, but believe that he was using a metaphor when he spoke of his body and blood, will I be condemned to hell for that? I believe that even the apostles were possibly not aware of the doctrine of the Trinity when they died. Are they also condemned?

What about if a Christian discerns that all of the Pauline epistles are not inspired?

Do you believe that, since he’s doing the best he can, and sincerely believes from his prayer and discernment, that these epistles must be thrown out of the Bible, that he ought to be able to do this?

 

[PRmerger]

If the members of the magisterium are christians, then the Holy Spirit does live in them. That doesn’t mean that he gives them the power to comprehend the full meaning of scripture any more than he gives it to you or me. I believe the christian life is a process of gaining understanding of God and becoming closer to him as we mature as christians. God commanded us to be baptized. If I follow his command, understand that to mean that we should wait until we reach the age of reason and make the decision to follow Christ to be baptized, will I be condemned because of that? If I participate in the lord’s supper as he commanded, but believe that he was using a metaphor when he spoke of his body and blood, will I be condemned to hell for that? I believe that even the apostles were possibly not aware of the doctrine of the Trinity when they died. Are they also condemned?

As has already been asserted, Catholics can not declare anyone condemned. That is above our paygrade.

 

[Thorolfr]

Maybe this perspective will help you out. Because of Adam’s sin we all received the sentence of death. Which is more cruel or unjust–to be killed quickly by the sword or to be burned at the stake, fed to hungry lions, or crucified, as happened to many of God’s followers. Or how about dying a slow, painful death from cancer or a serious injury, as christians and others do. The Amalekites opposed the Israelites at every turn and were bent on their destruction. In order for God to work out his plan for bringing forth the Messiah, he decided he would have to eliminate the Amalekites. Saul, by the way, decided to spare some, and this resulted in the survivors’ descendants coming back and attempting to exterminate the Israelites. Those Amalekites who may have been right with God, including the children, are with God now–the same as with anyone else who has died by any means.

Isn’t there a difference between Christians being killed by pagan Romans and God ordering that innocent children be killed?

 

[PRmerger]

Isn’t there a difference between Christians being killed by pagan Romans and God ordering that innocent children be killed?

All the difference in the world, Thorolfr.

That’s like asking: is there a difference between Isis kidnapping a 5 year old child and stabbing him in the thigh and a father holding down his 5 yr old so the pediatrician can administer her vaccinations.

Um…yes. They are pretty different, don’t you think?

 

[Thorolfr]

All the difference in the world, Thorolfr.

That’s like asking: is there a difference between Isis kidnapping a 5 year old child and stabbing him in the thigh and a father holding down his 5 yr old so the pediatrician can administer her vaccinations.

Um…yes. They are pretty different, don’t you think?

I agree. I was just responding to Lek’s post. I find it difficult to believe that God would really have ordered the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites, including children and infants.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree. I was just responding to Lek’s post.

Extrapolate my response to your question.

 

[PRmerger]

I find it difficult to believe that God would really have ordered the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites, including children and infants.

Perhaps, like the limited reasoning skills a 5-yr old who can’t believe his father is holding him down to be tortured with needles, no explanation would suffice for you.

Also could you please answer the question I posed earlier–if you don’t believe certain parts of the Bible are actually inspired, how do you know? What do you use as your canon for discernment?

 

[Thorolfr]

Also could you please answer the question I posed earlier–if you don’t believe certain parts of the Bible are actually inspired, how do you know? What do you use as your canon for discernment?

If we believe that God is just (i.e. just = based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair"), then we could discern that certain actions attributed to God in the Bible are unjust and are therefore not congruent with God’s character. I think that most people today would agree that intentionally killing innocent civilians (as opposed to combatants) , even in time of war, is not just and is immoral.

 

[PRmerger]

If we believe that God is just (i.e. just = based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair"), then we could discern that certain actions attributed to God in the Bible are unjust and are therefore not congruent with God’s character. I think that most people today would agree that intentionally killing innocent civilians (as opposed to combatants) , even in time of war, is not just and is immoral.

So where do you get your idea that God is just?

From the Bible?

 

[PRmerger]

If we believe that God is just (i.e. just = based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair"), then we could discern that certain actions attributed to God in the Bible are unjust and are therefore not congruent with God’s character. I think that most people today would agree that intentionally killing innocent civilians (as opposed to combatants) , even in time of war, is not just and is immoral.

If we get the idea that God is kind and merciful, and there’s a story in the Bible that Jesus used some unkind words for the Pharisees (Matthew 23:27), do you dismiss that, too?

Do you believe Jesus really didn’t call the Pharisees white washed tombs?

And do you dismiss the very angry overturning of tables in the Temple, too?

Those things didn’t happen either?

 

[PRmerger]

I think that maybe you got me on that one. After pondering my thoughts on what is essential doctrine or not, the only one I can be sure about is having faith in Jesus Christ. If you have faith in Christ and truthfully seek him, God, through the Holy Spirit, will lead you to him.

So it’s a useless statement to say Belief A is required for salvation but Belief B is not required for salvation (as long as one has faith in Christ and truthfully seeks him), eh?

I just want to remind you that you did, earlier, point out that belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity was not a required belief.

Since you have no acknowledged that the Bible does not speak of essential/required/primary vs non-essential/secondary beliefs, then it causes question regarding this comment you made:

As far as assumptions about Mary, I don’t connect Jesus’ divinity with Mary’s perpetual virginity. You can make that assumption if you like, but I find nothing solid to back it up, and I don’t view it as a belief necessary for salvation.

 

[Thorolfr]

So where do you get your idea that God is just?

From the Bible?

Isaiah 31:18: Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Isaiah 61:8: For I the Lord love justice.

Deuteronomy 32: 4: "The Rock, his work is perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God, without deceit, just and upright is he.

 

[PRmerger]

Isaiah 31:18: Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Isaiah 61:8: For I the Lord love justice.

Deuteronomy 32: 4: "The Rock, his work is perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God, without deceit, just and upright is he.

Well, you can see how I find this confusing. You can’t use a source for that which you’re dismissing.

It’s circular.

“I believe what the Bible says, except when I don’t believe what the Bible says, based on what the Bible says.”

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, you can see how I find this confusing. You can’t use a source for that which you’re dismissing.

It’s circular.

“I believe what the Bible says, except when I don’t believe what the Bible says, based on what the Bible says.”

I believe that the Bible can tell us a lot about God, but I’m not a Biblical literalist and I don’t believe in inerrant scripture. It is a guide, but people can experience God and have knowledge of God outside of scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe that the Bible can tell us a lot about God, but I’m not a Biblical literalist and I don’t believe in inerrant scripture. It is a guide, but people can experience God and have knowledge of God outside of scripture.

That’s fine, but that still doesn’t solve the problem of how you know that which parts of the Bible are inspired and which parts aren’t.

How do you determine this?

 

[Lek]

Isaiah 31:18: Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Isaiah 61:8: For I the Lord love justice.

Deuteronomy 32: 4: "The Rock, his work is perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God, without deceit, just and upright is he.

Is it more just for God to cause an infant to die of some disease or to die of a sword wound? Why would it be more unjust of God to put people to death by the sword than to have us die in whatever fashion we die in? Some of us die old and some die young. He was eliminating the Amalekites at that time for a specific reason.

 

[PRmerger]

Is it more just for God to cause an infant to die of some disease or to die of a sword wound? Why would it be more unjust of God to put people to death by the sword than to have us die in whatever fashion we die in? Some of us die old and some die young.

Egg-zactly.

 

[Lek]

So how do we know when a pastor is preaching something that is true and correct?

We test it against scripture. My pastor has some different interpretations than I do, but they are all possible interpretations of scripture. Paul told us to test the words of the teachers. How do you know if your priest is teaching something that is true and correct?

 

[Lek]

So you do believe, under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, that decisions can be made by people that were without error?

Yes. I know that you’re leading me somewhere here.

 

[PRmerger]

We test it against scripture.

Where does Scripture say to do that?

My pastor has some different interpretations than I do, but they are all possible interpretations of scripture. Paul told us to test the words of the teachers. How do you know if your priest is teaching something that is true and correct?

We test it by comparing it to the pillar and foundation of Truth, which is…

the Church.

1 Timothy 3:15.

The Biblical thing to do is to test things with what the Church says, not to “test it against Scripture”.