Why do some Christians view Catholics as non-Christians

[jrtrent]

The frustrating part for myself as a Catholic, is when a non-Catholic demands to know where (insert Catholic belief or practice) is in the Bible, and then you SHOW THEM, and then they fire back with,“that’s not what that means!!!” . . . It’s really frustrating, sometimes. Especially when the person says they want answers, yet have no intention of listening (or thinking).

The same thing can happen when one Protestant questions another Protestant on some point of disputed doctrine, such as whether or not to baptize infants. It also happens a lot on here that when a Catholic asks a Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, etc., to show where they get some part of their belief, and then that person shares the basis for their belief, that Catholic fires back with “that’s not what it means!” or “Your founder was a liar!” or “You can’t understand anything apart from the teaching authority of the Catholic Church!” Too often, on all sides, people seem to ask questions not for the purpose of listening to and better understanding another person’s beliefs, but only as a prelude to pounding home their own point of view.

With that prelude over, let me pound my own opinion on the subject of Catholics being Christian, and that is, as Boettner put it, “all who accept Christ as their personal Saviour, all who obey and worship Him as Lord and Master, will be saved, regardless of what church they belong to.” And that includes Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

That is a very relevant question today. My take on it is that the papacy is considered to be heretical by many Christians. This is in opposition to the Catholic view that the papacy is what gives legitimacy to the Catholic Church, and denies legitimacy to Christians who reject the papacy.

Greetings epan. I agree it is a very relevant question, and I think you are right, that many Christians think the papacy is heretical.

However you are not quite right that it is the papacy that gives legitimacy to the CC. Jesus is what gives that legitimacy, because He created the papacy when He declared “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build My Church”.

Additionally, the CC does not “deny legitimacy” to Christian, whether they reject the words of Jesus to Peter or not.

On the contrary, she accepts all those who are validly baptized as members of His One Body, the Church.

 

[joe370]

Ephesians 4

Agreed. We are after all, brothers and sisters in Christ for the most part - and since a deeply held conviction may never change, we have to bridge gaps in some other way.

Very true. However, that can be a rather tough task if one does not want to compromise one’s doctrinal beliefs e.g. the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[J_the_Centrist]

I believe that the whole Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Independent Churches, etc. arguments are ridiculous. They should have been left in the last century and they shouldn’t have made it even that far. We Christians have to realize that we must become more united regardless of doctrinal or ritualistic differences. Most importantly this is what Christ wanted when he prayed for this to be so; all of you should read the Gospel According to John chapter 17. We also must remember that the most powerful enemies of Christianity today are not other Christians from other denominations. Personally, I believe that we are far better off united rather than divided and our divisions should be discarded, or at least reduced to the lowest level possible.

 

[joe370]

I believe that the whole Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Independent Churches, etc. arguments are ridiculous. They should have been left in the last century and they shouldn’t have made it even that far. We Christians have to realize that we must become more united regardless of doctrinal or ritualistic differences. Most importantly this is what Christ wanted when he prayed for this to be so; all of you should read the Gospel According to John chapter 17. We also must remember that the most powerful enemies of Christianity today are not other Christians from other denominations. Personally, I believe that we are far better off united rather than divided and our divisions should be discarded, or at least reduced to the lowest level possible.

I agree with everything you wrote. Easier said than done of course…

 

[Brandall]

The same thing can happen when one Protestant questions another Protestant on some point of disputed doctrine, such as whether or not to baptize infants. It also happens a lot on here that when a Catholic asks a Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, etc., to show where they get some part of their belief, and then that person shares the basis for their belief, that Catholic fires back with “that’s not what it means!” or “Your founder was a liar!” or “You can’t understand anything apart from the teaching authority of the Catholic Church!” Too often, on all sides, people seem to ask questions not for the purpose of listening to and better understanding another person’s beliefs, but only as a prelude to pounding home their own point of view.

With that prelude over, let me pound my own opinion on the subject of Catholics being Christian, and that is, as Boettner put it, “all who accept Christ as their personal Saviour, all who obey and worship Him as Lord and Master, will be saved, regardless of what church they belong to.” And that includes Catholics.

I agree with much of what you say here. There is a lot of energy that goes into arguing differences and it seem quite the waste.

 

[Brandall]

I don’t think the idea that these people are being hard-hearted, or lazy, or stupid, or bad is necessarily right all of, or even a lot of, the time.

It is very easy to see where these people are coming from if you just read the bible and take it as the sole true source. This one difference would throw a lot of stuff into question. Add to that, a different tradition could easily predispose you to it too - and frankly how many raised Catholics could have been raised-something-elses just as easily?

Sometimes when a person can arrive at being wrong in good faith, with the honest love of Jesus Christ as He truly is in their hearts, and a true desire to follow God’s law, the problem might not be that they are lazy, stupid, hard-hearted, evil etc…

Think your assessment is fair.

thanks

 

[Brandall]

Hi ephesians4,

How do you reconcile this with the fact that there are many who will not pray with us. I’m not saying “will not come to our service” but will not come to a communal prayer service?

Most people will attribute this to “well that’s just a very small majority” and it very well may be but I disagree.

Peace!!!

I’m sorry to hear you were treated that way. In the same type of vain, or at least similar, there are “answers” here in the “Ask An Apologist” section that Instruct Catholics to not attend a non-denominational or protestant bible study.

What is your, or anyone else’s, opinion on that? Does that seem similar? Is that close minded and dismissive of the Catholic Church.

 

[Brandall]

Sure they are brought up with a certain tradition in a certain denomination. I cannot remember when I was at Mass and Father gave on homily on how bad the Baptist are and how they are going to hell. However, I can remember that last time I was in a Baptist service and the pastor gave a homily on Catholics going to hell.

Many Protestant denominations will not and do not take time to actually research what the Church teaches. They simply take their pastor or grandmother’s word for it. That is the being “lazy” part that some have posted about.

We are asked to be charitable towards one another and that has to come from both sides of the aisle. I lost many friends when I converted. Not because I am a bad person or killed babies lol, but simply because I became Catholic. One friend told me that her pastor said she should not converse with non Christians. I asked why she thought I was a non Christian and she stated that I put Mary above Christ. I tried to correct her misunderstanding but she would not listen to reason, but rather her false understanding.

For the record, I am not anti-Catholic. I’ve been attending a Catholic Church for several months and am in an inquiry program.

Obviously, I am one that is doing the research. However, that does not lead me to believe that the others are lazy. You’re right that they are believing on what their ministers and family members have told them. By the same token, doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that their interpretations are correct? Aren’t Catholics supposed to trust the church? If someone was raised Catholic, should they trust their parents were doing the right thing regarding raising you as a Catholic. Does that trust in the church by Catholics make them lazy?

In my research on the Catholic Church, I’ve googled things like, “What’s wrong with Catholics” and “Why aren’t Catholics Christian”. There is a lot of information that is wrong out there, Some out of ignorance, some as an honest difference of opinion and some just plain deceit. Prior to the internet there were tapes, videos and books filled with misinformation. Many people in an effort to educate themselves were simply misinformed.

Added to that, there are some things in the Catholic Church that frankly couldn’t have been named any less clear. When I heard things like, “All graces flow through Mary” and “Mary is the co-redemptrix”, I almost walked out never to return. However, I sought help in understanding these things and found out they don’t mean what they sound like they mean. There is a history going back in the church for hundreds of years that explain these and they are frankly beautiful. They are not the idolatry or sharing of redemption that they sound like they are.

Love to hear your or anyone’s thoughts.

 

[Brandall]

You all do understand that these folks don’t even think that the person sitting next to them in their pew on Sunday morning are “reallly” a christian either, no?

The main objections will beas they see it)

statues
icons
relics
kissing all of the above
mary adoration
her assumption into heaven
her being queen of heaven
praying to anyone besides the Holy Trinity
purgatory
rituals
wine
“cannibalism”- eating the flesh of Jesus
and of course
vampires- drinking the blood of Jesus
Pope is Jesus on earth
infallibility
the crusades
the inqusition
little gods-the saints
the paganism of old rome becoming Rc sacraments
nuns
works
rosaries
lady of fatima
lady of lourdes
self harm
legalism
church holy days
replacement theology
social justice
amillienism
baby baptism
priests forgiving you
eucmenism

basically, just about everything

it is so sad to know how hard their hearts are

Add to your list the misunderstanding about Mary being a co-redemptrix and all graces flowing through Mary would make it near complete. Being raised in a Baptist Church, I know exactly what you mean when you say, “these folks don’t even think that the person sitting next to them in their pew on Sunday morning are “really” a christian either”. I was raised to be judgmental about other’s Christianity. Hopefully I’ve left that behind.

 

[Brandall]

Ignorance, and in many cases; an unwillingness to see for themselves what Catholicism IS.

That’s as simple as I can make it.

I think every Catholic who is serious about learning the nuts and bolts of Catholicism, should also look at the causes and results of the Reformation. I also think any Protestant who is serious about THEIR faith, should objectively learn about Catholicism. It would make for a far better understanding of Christianity as a whole.

In the first place, I’ve never considered myself a protestant. I was born and raised in a Baptist Church. There was no protest of the Catholic Church because it was something I had never known. Yes, I understand that term is used for basically “most” Christians that aren’t Catholics but it has become tiresome. The only protesting I have done is to seek a different denomination than the one where I was raised. I’ve never protested the Catholic Church but I am now protesting the Baptist Church for several reasons. Phew, glad I got that out of my system.

We are in complete agreement that Catholics should look at the causes and results of the Reformation. Since I am now entrenched in objectively learning about Catholicism, I am already following your advice. How far are you willing to carry that advice forward? Should any Catholic that is serious about their faith objectively learn about different “protestant” denominations? (I bet I know what the Catholic Church’s opinion would be on that) Should we also learn about the LDS? JW’s? Islam?

For myself, I’m reluctant to give any thought to a church that teaches against the trinity or that Jesus needed another testament several hundred years later. I’m just curious what you think.

 

[joe370]

…Should any Catholic that is serious about their faith objectively learn about different protestant religions? (I bet I know what the Catholic Church’s opinion would be on that) Should we also learn about the LDS? JW’s? Islam?

For myself, I’m reluctant to give any thought to a church that teaches against the trinity or that Jesus needed another testament several hundred years later. I’m just curious what you think.

Hey Brandall. Nice post. Perhaps it is always a good idea for Christians belonging to the CC to familiarize themselves with the beliefs of other churches in terms of juxtaposition i.e. knowing what divides and more importantly, what brings us all together, something Jesus considered instrumental in terms of the world believing. Islam, LDS, and JWs deny the core dogma of Christianity, so, unless one is leaning toward those religions, probably not necessary.

“…so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are on.”

 

[Brandall]

Greetings epan. I agree it is a very relevant question, and I think you are right, that many Christians think the papacy is heretical.

However you are not quite right that it is the papacy that gives legitimacy to the CC. Jesus is what gives that legitimacy, because He created the papacy when He declared “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build My Church”.

Additionally, the CC does not “deny legitimacy” to Christian, whether they reject the words of Jesus to Peter or not.

On the contrary, she accepts all those who are validly baptized as members of His One Body, the Church.

Quite honestly, I’m not certain that I’m yet able to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church being the heir to Peter’s keys to the kingdom. As you may well know, there are other denominations that claim the same apostolic succession that they took over when the Catholic Church erred. I’m not looking to pick a fight but just trying to explain where I am in this journey.

Regardless, I was raised in an autonomous “democratic” church that has doctrinal differences with the Catholic Church. Frankly, they have doctrinal differences with themselves and their own name. My current search is away from an autonomous church that may decide one thing this year and then reverse themselves in two. Also the differences of opinions tear that type of church apart. Often, the losers in the “democratic” struggle walk away and the church has to rebuild. It is a divisive system. I’m fairly certain that my path will be to a church that has a hierarchy and doctrines that are well established with a certainty.

In other words, I have no problem with the papacy of the Catholic Church.

 

[Doxiemom]

Add to your list the misunderstanding about Mary being a co-redemptrix and all graces flowing through Mary would make it near complete. Being raised in a Baptist Church, I know exactly what you mean when you say, “these folks don’t even think that the person sitting next to them in their pew on Sunday morning are “really” a christian either”. I was raised to be judgmental about other’s Christianity. Hopefully I’ve left that behind.

they are stuck in their tight little boxes of rightous judgement. It sounds like you’ve cast off your box. Is there not more joy now?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

So in another thread of mine, it was stated that Catholics are not Christian. Why do some Christians view Catholics as non Christian? I remember being told I was going to hell for being a Catholic, but I have never been accused of by a non Christian.

I am a southerner, and I hear that one all the time. You won’t change their minds on that issue, and trying to discuss it is like getting into a wrestling match with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.

In the end, someone calling us non-Christians doesn’t make us non-Christians. Only we can do that to ourselves. We define who we are through our faith and our actions.

 

[Doxiemom]

In the first place, I’ve never considered myself a protestant. I was born and raised in a Baptist Church. There was no protest of the Catholic Church because it was something I had never known. Yes, I understand that term is used for basically “most” Christians that aren’t Catholics but it has become tiresome. The only protesting I have done is to seek a different denomination than the one where I was raised. I’ve never protested the Catholic Church but I am now protesting the Baptist Church for several reasons. Phew, glad I got that out of my system.

We are in complete agreement that Catholics should look at the causes and results of the Reformation. Since I am now entrenched in objectively learning about Catholicism, I am already following your advice. How far are you willing to carry that advice forward? Should any Catholic that is serious about their faith objectively learn about different “protestant” denominations? (I bet I know what the Catholic Church’s opinion would be on that) Should we also learn about the LDS? JW’s? Islam?

For myself, I’m reluctant to give any thought to a church that teaches against the trinity or that Jesus needed another testament several hundred years later. I’m just curious what you think.

As for learning from protestant churches;

as unpopular as it will be to say, it was a preacher of another denomination who awoke a yearning in me to come back to the Lord. i wanted so bad what he had. never had any homily ever inspired me the way that man did.

There was no “leave your church and come to mine” stuff. But it was " Wow! this guy Jesus was an amazing fellow. Look what He did for you! He would not lose you"

And then I very quickly had experiences of the boderline hatred that both sides _by some, but enough- had toward each other. A something i wasn’t prepared for nor still deal with easily. They make me cry. They make me feel alone.

There is sin somewhere in all of this. It feels wrong in the spirit.

In the end the real answer to the OP is that it is done because Satan has had his hand in it and is laughing . The Holy Spirit would never inspire this.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I am a southerner, and I hear that one all the time. You won’t change their minds on that issue, and trying to discuss it is like getting into a wrestling match with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.

In the end, someone calling us non-Christians doesn’t make us non-Christians. Only we can do that to ourselves. We define who we are through our faith and our actions.

Correct! They will know us by our fruits as we remain in our vine.

 

[joe370]

Brandall;10431789]Quite honestly, I’m not certain that I’m yet able to wrap my brain around the Catholic Church being the heir to Peter’s keys to the kingdom.

It’s Jesus’ kingdom - right? Peter is merely the prime minister, who was given the keys. Surely Peter did not hog the keys by taking them with him, upon his demise…LOL…

As you may well know, there are other denominations that claim the same apostolic succession that they took over when the Catholic Church erred.

Technically, that is not apostolic succession. Those folks left the Catholic Church and became the first of many successors, of their newly formed church i.e. the foundation of their newly formed church - right? And, if someone leaves their established church, those dissenters too will be removed from the succession of leaders. This has been going on since the protestant reformation.

 

[J_the_Centrist]

As for learning from protestant churches;

as unpopular as it will be to say, it was a preacher of another denomination who awoke a yearning in me to come back to the Lord. i wanted so bad what he had. never had any homily ever inspired me the way that man did.

There was no “leave your church and come to mine” stuff. But it was " Wow! this guy Jesus was an amazing fellow. Look what He did for you! He would not lose you"

And then I very quickly had experiences of the boderline hatred that both sides _by some, but enough- had toward each other. A something i wasn’t prepared for nor still deal with easily. They make me cry. They make me feel alone.

There is sin somewhere in all of this. It feels wrong in the spirit.

In the end the real answer to the OP is that it is done because Satan has had his hand in it

and is laughing . The Holy Spirit would never inspire this.

Sister in Christ, you are definitely not alone and feelings of hatred are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. We are living in a time when Christian unity is needed more than ever before. The faith’s greatest enemies are not the folks worshiping at other churches, but outside the faith entirely. Muslims are not the enemy either, not in my opinion anyway; they could probably be useful allies, but that is another issue. Everyone who reads this should read John 17 immediately and in it’s entirety, before you forget. Christ wants us united and petty little differences shouldn’t divide us any longer. A united front with us respecting each others practices is precisely what is needed. This divisiveness only prolongs this great ungodly and unchristian behavior, as well as provides fuel for our enemies.

 

[adf417]

I’m sorry to hear you were treated that way. In the same type of vain, or at least similar, there are “answers” here in the “Ask An Apologist” section that Instruct Catholics to not attend a non-denominational or protestant bible study.

What is your, or anyone else’s, opinion on that? Does that seem similar? Is that close minded and dismissive of the Catholic Church.

Hi Brandall, thank you for your reply.

You are right when it comes to Catholics attending non-Catholic bible studies. Even with the grey areas in this instruction from the church or even when one wants to push the envelope on this issue there will always be contention and therefor division.

However, this was not my point. I was speaking to prayer. Prayer to God the Father from all His children. If we are all Christians in the Protestant paradigm, e.g. mystical body of Christ, surly how we interpret the bible is of no relevance. If it were then that would open up many other questions within the Protestant paradigm itself. If we cannot come together in prayer, how can we consider ourselves Christian?

Pictured here…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Day-of-Prayer-for-Peace_Assisi_2011.jpg
Is just a sampling of what it looks like without contention.

After reading the rest of your posts I sense I am preaching to the choir – so I post this for lurkers.
Peace brother!!!