Why do some claim that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid?

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katolik:
You say that the Eastern Catholics have their own interpretation of the Filioque but Byzcath asks me “since when is filioque dogma?”

Hmm,
Oh yes and many modern Byzantine Catholics believe that the Unia of 1596 and the other Unia are evil and a part of a disease they call “Uniatism”!!! Try to tell them that Orthodox need to be converted because they are extra Ecclesiam!!
I will leave the filioque out of it as you seem to have trouble understanding that issue.

As for your next comment. Yes there are some Eastern Catholics who act as you describe, but I stand against them and for the Holy Catholic Church just as I stand against the “rad-Trads” and schismatics who think the only true Catholic is a Roman Catholic.

But that is besides the point and has nothing to do with this.
 
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ByzCath:
I will leave the filioque out of it as you seem to have trouble understanding that issue
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Explain to me the exact interpretation. Anyways why would so many Popes allow it to remain in the Creed if it wasn’t a dogma?
As for your next comment. Yes there are some Eastern Catholics who act as you describe, but I stand against them and for the Holy Catholic Church just as I** stand against the “rad-Trads” and schismatics who think the only true Catholic is a Roman Catholic.**

But that is besides the point and has nothing to do with this.
I see and that is good and just but are they schismatics or heretics in the Church’s eyes???

The bolded part is not because of willful hate of the Eastern Catholic churches but because of ignorance of the Eastern church. How many Catholics have an Eastern church in their area? I don’t think that in France,Italy,Germany,Spain, and even in the USA will you not see more than 1 EC church for 100 RC churches. Not everyone is as lucky as me to have a full UGCC parish within walking distance with daily Matins and Divine Liturgy and 5 priests…
 
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katolik:
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Explain to me the exact interpretation. Anyways why would so many Popes allow it to remain in the Creed if it wasn’t a dogma?
In the Creed in the Mass, yes. But not in the Creed in the Divine Liturgy, again we have been told to remove it.

Not all of our parishes have done so as of yet but that will take time.

Lets just agree to disagree on this one.
I see and that is good and just but are they schismatics or heretics in the Church’s eyes???
I do not think they are heretics, that is a strong prnouncement, nor are they schismatics. After all only the Church can make such a statement.

In my eyes, though, they are gravely misguided. I even know a few Eastern Catholics who applaud when a Catholic changes and joins one of the Orthodox Churches. Shameful and dangerouse to their immortal soul.
The bolded part is not because of willful hate of the Eastern Catholic churches but because of ignorance of the Eastern church. How many Catholics have an Eastern church in their area? I don’t think that in France,Italy,Germany,Spain, and even in the USA will you not see more than 1 EC church for 100 RC churches. Not everyone is as lucky as me to have a full UGCC parish within walking distance with daily Matins and Divine Liturgy and 5 priests…
Yes so true.

But then, if that UGCC parish is not a monastery they are not following the Byzantine Traditions. Daily Divine Liturgy should only happen in the monasteries but then, as is most likely the case, if the priests are celibate they can do so and still be following the intent of the tradition.

But I hope they are not having Daily Divine Liturgies during Lent, as Lent is aliturgical. No Divine Liturgies at all, even in monasteries, daily during Lent. Only on Sundays and Holy Days if any fall in Lent. They should be having Presanctifed Liturgy on Wednesdays and Fridays.
 
Actually, Byzcath you are wrong.

The Pecherskaya Orthodox monastery in Kiev has daily presanctified liturgy and they are Orthodox. I learned this from byzcath.

Actually even in the Traditional Roman Rite most days of Lent are aliturgical but the practice of no Mass on those days has been lost.
 
He calls the Novus Ordo Mass a “black Mass”. It is disturbing to hear him go on.

I go to a sspx parish -

I do not think that your friend should be saying that the Novus Ordo mass is a “black mass”. A black mass and the Novus Ordo mass is a very different kettle of fish!
A black mass is what Satanists use - a sacrilige…

This may help I found it on the internet Father Scott answers this question.
**Q. Is the Novus Ordo Mass invalid, or sacrilegious, and should I assist at it when I have no alternative?

A. The validity of the reformed rite of Mass, as issued in Latin by Paul VI in 1969, must be judged according to the same criteria as the validity of the other sacraments; namely matter, form and intention. The defective theology and meaning of the rites, eliminating as they do every reference to the principal propitiatory end of sacrifice, do not necessarily invalidate the Mass. The intention of doing what the Church does, even if the priest understands it imperfectly, is sufficient for validity. With respect to the matter, pure wheaten bread and true wine from grapes are what is required for validity. The changes in the words of the form in the Latin original, although certainly illicit and unprecedented in the history of the Church, do not alter the substance of its meaning, and consequently do not invalidate the Mass.

However, we all know that such a New Mass celebrated in Latin is an oddity, doomed to extinction by the very fact of the reform. The validity of the New Masses that are actually celebrated in today’s parishes more than 30 years later is a quite different question. Additives to the host sometimes invalidate the matter. The change in the translation from the words of Our Lord, *"for many "to *the ecumenically acceptable *“for all” *throws at least some doubt on the validity of the form. Most importantly, however, is the fact that the intention of the Church of offering up a true sacrifice in propitiation for the sins of the living and the dead has been obliterated for 30 years. In fact, most liturgies present the contrary intention of a celebration by the community of the praise of God. In such circumstances it is very easy for a priest to no longer have the intention of doing what the Church does, and for the New Mass to become invalid for this reason. The problem is that this is hidden and nobody knows. Whereas the traditional Mass expresses the true intention of the Church in a clear and unambiguous manner, so that everyone can be certain of the priest’s intention, the New Mass does no such thing. Consequently, the doubt of invalidity for lack of intention, especially in the case of manifestly modernist priests, cannot be easily lifted or removed.

this article is not complete here due to the limit of words that we can post
 
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tradcatmel:
I go to a sspx parish -
I do not think that your friend should be saying that the Novus Ordo mass is a “black mass”. A black mass and the Novus Ordo mass is a very different kettle of fish!
A black mass is what Satanists use - a sacrilige…
Thanks for the article clipping. I’ve read some of this before, and I do understand that my friend’s views are often not the views set fourth by SSPX leadership – but this seems to be very common amongst the SSPX adherents I have met. It is as if they ignore the positions taught to them by their own priests, or that maybe the priests and bishops only say things the way they do to tread lightly while carrying a big stick.
Would you yourself receive communion at a novus ordo Mass?
 
The new mass isn’t invalid, but every Catholic worth their salt should read "The Ottaviani Intervention. ".

It was written by Cardinal Ottaviani during the second Vatican council when the mass was in the process off being changed by Anibal Bugnini’s gang.

It gives a great summary without veering into the Schismatic, sedevacantist, neocatholic, or modernist hyperbole that’s accumulated all over the 45 or so years. … it’s just good catholic reading

Google it up… is worth the read! 😃
 
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