WHy do some non catholics "fear" Mary?

[JonNC]

=adowcday;5319448]Let me add my two cents’ worth and offer a brief answer. Nothing earth-shaking here:

I think you did pretty well here.

(1) Idolatry. Protestants are concerned about violating the first commandment by offering worship to someone who is not God. In this, they would see Mary as the worst case of worship of the saints. They would point to such works as “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis de Montfort as promoting a dedication to Mary that, for a Christian, belongs to Jesus alone. They also point to statues and paintings of Mary that look like idols (May crowning? shudder)

Some have stronger views about idolatry than others, and I believe the CC does a better job now of being aware of over-the-top veneration.

A related concern is that Marian devotion has its roots in pagan goddess worship (e.g., “Queen of Heaven” is a title given to Ishtar and Isis in their cults).

And some complain about December Christmas, and the name Easter. Some folks overreact.

(2) Unbiblical. Protestants are concerned that a duty to show fitting honor to the mother of Jesus has become exaggerated to the extent that some people seem to devote more time and attention to Mary than to Jesus. While there is some biblical basis for Catholic devotion to Mary, the first Christians did not seem to focus much attention on Mary. Moreover, the Catholic Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are unbiblical, and the more contemporary push to name Mary “co-redemptrix” is not only unbiblical but seems positively heretical to some who fear that Catholics put Mary on an equal footing with Jesus.

Co-redemptrix or Co-mediatrix really makes us queazy, even those like me that generally accept the 4 dogmas. I’ve seen the explanation, but…
As for unbiblcal, this is why, at least for this Lutheran, the biggest concern is the anathamas attached to the dogmas. Scripture is sketchy about these things, and therefore the conscience of the believer should not be bound by them. OTOH, neither should one be condemned for believing them.

Now, I’m a Roman Catholic, and I pray the rosary, etc. I’m just trying to state Protestant objections fairly.

As I said, you did pretty well.
Jon

 

[Angelstar]

Really? You think God was unable to make that happen without Mary?

Hmm… The “what if” game? I won’t pretend to know what God might have done otherwise… he certainly wouldn’t have MADE her submit to His will, although he certainly is all powerful and could have. He certainly could have redeemed us by other means… but I believe the Bible clearly shows from the beginning to the end God’s plan and quite clearly, how she fit into that plan. God of course also is eternal and all knowing… posing the question of “what ifs” seems to doubt this about Him being that our history very clearly is what it is.

So… God had a plan… She was a part of that plan from the very beginning (this point brings the discussion toward her immaculate conception, which is in large part the reason why she was able to do God’s will so perfectly).

But how about we stick with the fact of the matter, that Mary DID say yes. That she indeed did conceived the Word of God in her womb and no alternatives for redemption were needed.

 

[Monica4316]

ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm

here’s a good link that explains why Catholics call Mary “Mother of God” and “Queen of Heaven.”

 

[Monica4316]

Really? You think God was unable to make that happen without Mary?

God chose to give us Jesus through Mary that matters a great deal. It’s not a matter of what God could or couldn’t do. He can do anything. But He chose Mary.

IF any fear exists, it is not fear in giving Mary the proper honor…but it resides in not giving the proper honor and worship to her Son……so her admonition to “do whatever he tells you”…is first and foremost… I take her admonition very very seriously. To me to take her words seriously IS honor and respect.

I respect that. I think it’s a very important point that Mary points us to her Son.

 

[Monica4316]

Some have stronger views about idolatry than others, and I believe the CC does a better job now of being aware of over-the-top veneration.

hmm I don’t believe that “over the top” veneration of Mary exists…or could exist… veneration of Mary becomes idolatry not when we love her too much, but when we love Jesus too little. As long as Mary leads us to Jesus (which is something she always does that is her nature) - we can love her with all our hearts and not feel afraid. cause we would always love Jesus first, and she would indeed help us with that.

I’m one of those people who likes the types of devotions that were mentioned in the post you replied to… such as “True Devotion” by St Louis de Montfort and statues and May Crowning lol! I don’t think that they are only pre-VII cause Pope John Paul II was a big supporter of De Montfort.

Co-redemptrix or Co-mediatrix really makes us queazy, even those like me that generally accept the 4 dogmas. I’ve seen the explanation, but…

if anyone wants an explanation
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_mediatrix_co-redemptrix.htm

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Mary in the Bible:
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_in_the_bible.htm

 

[phoenix3212]

Co-redemptrix or Co-mediatrix really makes us queazy, even those like me that generally accept the 4 dogmas. I’ve seen the explanation, but…
As for unbiblcal, this is why, at least for this Lutheran, the biggest concern is the anathamas attached to the dogmas. Scripture is sketchy about these things, and therefore the conscience of the believer should not be bound by them. OTOH, neither should one be condemned for believing them.

Anathema doesn’t equal a sentence to hell. All it means that, for whatever reason, someone who was a Catholic and knew the truth placed himself outside the Catholic Church by not subscribing to it’s dogmas. That person is essentially no longer Catholic, because they don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches. People like to attach different meanings to the word “anathema,” but that’s all it actually describes.

People who have been anathema can certainly still enter Heaven.

 

[ConservativeOne]

This post was very timely. I work for someone who is a former Catholic – now Baptist and big on the Bible. He’s against how we Catholics feel about the Blessed Mother. Always telling me adamantly that Our Lord had brothers and sisters, that Our Lady and St. Joseph “consummated” their marriage later. I feel guilty since he’s a heavy-duty bible reader - and I never know how to reply …oh, I can reply to anyone else in my Faith’s defense - but this guy - while I stand behind my Catholic Faith, why do I feel wordless or inept at responding? It’s not a “fear” on people’s part - it’s a denial of her spirituality.

He also says the Bible says (sorry, I don’t want to misquote, so this is rough wording) that Our Lord says to call nobody but God “Father” - but Catholics call priests “Father”. They interpret literally, and you stand there feeling = uhhhh…
What bothers me most - is that I just politely listen - but feel so inept, since he uses the Bible to back everything up - using the words literally, of course. We can’t deny the Bible’s words, of course, but our Faith is so much more. I can’t remember his words verbatim, so I don’t want to misquote. Somebody, help me here ! Why do we end up on the defensive? Why can’t I speak up?

 

[Monica4316]

This post was very timely. I work for someone who is a former Catholic – now Baptist and big on the Bible. He’s against how we Catholics feel about the Blessed Mother. Always telling me adamantly that Our Lord had brothers and sisters, that Our Lady and St. Joseph “consummated” their marriage later.

I know lots of people who think so…
however, in the Bible, the word “brothers” also meant cousins or any male relative. And where it says he [St Joseph] “knew her not until” she gave birth to Jesus… in the original language, “until” doesn’t imply that it actually happened.

I feel guilty since he’s a heavy-duty bible reader - and I never know how to reply …oh, I can reply to anyone else in my Faith’s defense - but this guy - while I stand behind my Catholic Faith, why do I feel wordless or inept at responding? It’s not a “fear” on people’s part - it’s a denial of her spirituality.

He also says the Bible says (sorry, I don’t want to misquote, so this is rough wording) that Our Lord says to call nobody but God “Father” - but Catholics call priests “Father”. They interpret literally, and you stand there feeling = uhhhh…
What bothers me most - is that I just politely listen - but feel so inept, since he uses the Bible to back everything up - using the words literally, of course. We can’t deny the Bible’s words, of course, but our Faith is so much more. I can’t remember his words verbatim, so I don’t want to misquote. Somebody, help me here ! Why do we end up on the defensive? Why can’t I speak up?

ugh I know what you mean Sometimes I get into these debates with people and they just quote Bible verse after Bible verse and i just stand there… lol! It’s like they have it all memorized… but sadly, take it out of context. lol if the passage about calling no man ‘Father’ is to be taken literally, we can’t call our dads ‘father’ either!! yet Protestants do this…

I think maybe the best is just praying for these people… pray the Rosary

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It’s like they have it all memorized… but sadly, take it out of context. lol if the passage about calling no man ‘Father’ is to be taken literally, we can’t call our dads ‘father’ either!! yet Protestants do this…

Actually, if you were really concerned about context, you’d have known that the verse isn’t talking about referring to our dads, but to spiritual leaders.

 

[JonNC]

=Monica4316;5319777]hmm I don’t believe that “over the top” veneration of Mary exists…or could exist… veneration of Mary becomes idolatry not when we love her too much, but when we love Jesus too little. As long as Mary leads us to Jesus (which is something she always does that is her nature) - we can love her with all our hearts and not feel afraid. cause we would always love Jesus first, and she would indeed help us with that.

OK, I won’t quibble about the terminology, and trust that, as a Catholic, you have greater knowledge of how the terms are used. What I was thinking of was groups like “Army of Mary” out of Canada, and how Rome has handled them, I believe, properly.

I’m one of those people who likes the types of devotions that were mentioned in the post you replied to… such as “True Devotion” by St Louis de Montfort and statues and May Crowning lol! I don’t think that they are only pre-VII cause Pope John Paul II was a big supporter of De Montfort.

So long as marion veneration and devotion are employed to lead to Christ, I have no problem with it. God bless you, as well.

Jon

 

[Monica4316]

Actually, if you were really concerned about context, you’d have known that the verse isn’t talking about referring to our dads, but to spiritual leaders.

catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

OK, I won’t quibble about the terminology, and trust that, as a Catholic, you have greater knowledge of how the terms are used. What I was thinking of was groups like “Army of Mary” out of Canada, and how Rome has handled them, I believe, properly.

oh sorry I don’t know who they are… usually the Church opposes movements that go against a Catholic teaching, maybe that was it, but I really don’t know.

So long as marion veneration and devotion are employed to lead to Christ, I have no problem with it. God bless you, as well.

Jon

Our Lady can’t do otherwise

God bless.

 

[ConservativeOne]

Thanks, to Monica for that link. I’m no Biblical scholar, so it’s sometimes tough to read it all at once. But another thought comes to mind - Did we not hear Our Lord say from the Cross to Our Lady and St. John: “Mother, behold thy son. Son, behold Thy Mother.” ???

Surely, we know from the Bible that St. John was not Our Lord’s brother and not Our Lady’s biological son. We know that Our Lord was speaking (perhaps, in ‘hyperbole’ as the author in the link mentions) - entrusting Our Lady and St. John to one another - and also Our Lady to the world as our Heavenly Mother. (again, I don’t want to misquote the Bible but that’s how I was taught.)

Whew ! I believe. I believe. And then along comes those who are well-intentioned - BUT…

 

[sambos671]

I have to say that Mary heard the word of God and Obeyed." I am the handmaiden of the Lord.Let it be done to me according to your word. " Therefore she is Blessed.

I don’t want to play the scripture address game. Not every single word in the bible is meant to be taken literally, or independently of the whole bible. You can’t compare scripture with scripture. And you can’t ignore thousands of years of “non-biblical” theological works.

Though I honor Theotokos. I must disagree. Both Protestant and Catholic Dogma represents the Scriptures as the inspired word of God and one head of the double headed teaching which comprises the Magesterium. On the contrary you can compare scripture with scripture. The ECF constantly did this. Remember there are 4 levels of understanding of scripture 1) Literal 2) Alligorical (I throw in Topilogical with this one) 3) Anagogical 4) Eschatogical. So we can debate a verse at anyone of these levels but that does not negate scripture or its importance. Scripture can an must be compared with other scripture. Pope Benedicts book of Jesus of Nazareth shows how this method of exegete has been beneficial to the church. Now it isn’t the only way we should view scriptures but we shouldn’t negate it either. Note that your statement “non-biblical theologica works” is silly. All theolgical works are biblically based (in the Catholic church) to include Thomas Aquinas Summa, Anslems works ad infinitum. In fact if you look at the ECF you see their views resplendit with scripture. The Patristics (Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc… or in the 200 Justin Martyr, Tertullian, or in the 300, Athenasius, Agustine, Ambrose. In fact to find a Father or Doctor of the Church not to use scripture as a frame for their theology you would not only be hard pressed but find impossible.

 

[traillius]

I aplogize, What I meant was " extra biblical, as in additional to the bible. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[ScottishColleen]

I don’t think they “fear Mary”, but rather fear or are abhorred by many that are very superstitious where Mary is concerned. This could be cultural issues as well.

Example, I do not have a problem with Mary being held in esteem or the understanding of her being referred to as the Mother of the Church. But I am bothered by all the proclaimed “sightings” of her, miracles that are credited to her instead of God, and dolls/statues placed on alters as though they hold some mystic power. Maybe some don’t see it this way, but I have known some that have been extreme in this and it can turn some people off of Catholicism and, like Protestants can be broadbrushed, it lends to Catholicism being broadbrushed as well. (I’ve also known some Catholics that would not do any of what I listed )

 

[Harpazo]

As someone who is becoming Orthodox, I am certainly not “fearing” the Theotokos. In fact, in the Divine Liturgy, we mention her by name over 7 times, most of which saying “Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.”

If I were a Protestant that would be more scary to me than going to a Catholic liturgy were she is mentioned once at best.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[JonNC]

As someone who is becoming Orthodox, I am certainly not “fearing” the Theotokos. In fact, in the Divine Liturgy, we mention her by name over 7 times, most of which saying “Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.”

If I were a Protestant that would be more scary to me than going to a Catholic liturgy were she is mentioned once at best.

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew,
I disagree. What you’ve quoted there is a beautiful and proper use of the BVM and saints, as guides for the committed, godly life. I think it is wonderful.
As I recall from the times I’ve gone to Catholic Mass, their mention is a call to her for intercession (correct?). I think for many that would be “scarier”.

Jon

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t think they “fear Mary”, but rather fear or are abhorred by many that are very superstitious where Mary is concerned. This could be cultural issues as well.

Example, I do not have a problem with Mary being held in esteem or the understanding of her being referred to as the Mother of the Church. But I am bothered by all the proclaimed “sightings” of her, miracles that are credited to her instead of God, and dolls/statues placed on alters as though they hold some mystic power. Maybe some don’t see it this way, but I have known some that have been extreme in this and it can turn some people off of Catholicism and, like Protestants can be broadbrushed, it lends to Catholicism being broadbrushed as well. (I’ve also known some Catholics that would not do any of what I listed )

I don’t think these things are superstitious
if people have seen angels, why not Our Lady? the apparitions are approved by the Church. The miracles are not credited to her instead of God, but they’re credited to her intercession with God. Statues are placed on high altars as reminders for us.

I’m sorry I just don’t think that the Catholic Church should lessen devotion to Mary so that people would not be ‘turned off’… I think that is actually very dangerous to do.

sorry

 

[ScottishColleen]

I don’t think these things are superstitious
if people have seen angels, why not Our Lady? the apparitions are approved by the Church. The miracles are not credited to her instead of God, but they’re credited to her intercession with God. Statues are placed on high altars as reminders for us.

I’m sorry I just don’t think that the Catholic Church should lessen devotion to Mary so that people would not be ‘turned off’… I think that is actually very dangerous to do.

sorry

I can understand and respect that. I am stating what some of us have seen out of certain people, not all Catholics…and some of it appears to go beyond honoring Mary’s role. Also, not all apparitions have been approved by the Church.