Why do some people reject Vatican II?

  • Thread starter Thread starter hausofferni
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think what some people are objecting to is what they think Vatiican 11 was. Unfortunately there were a lot of liturgical excesses, and things like removing statues etc. which Wasn’t part of what the Church wanted. But some over zealous bishops and priests misunderstood it and got a little carried away. For example, our parish removed the statues and stored them in the basement! So, people rebelled against this and instead of trying to get it corrected began some schismatic movements . Thankfully, some of us held on and for those who still love the TLM Nass saw it restored under Pope Benedict. But sadly the catechetical teachings suffered because it was revamped and neglected Church’s teachings so many young people left the Church. It’s slowly beginning to change but a lot of damage has been done, but to solely blame Vatican 11 for this rather than human error is wrong.
I don’t think human error is a good explanation for anything. Removing statues that had been there for years to the basement? What about the candle stands set up before some of them? A better argument can and has been made that too many young people got confused and caught up in the Hippie/Anarchist preaching. I was there when “Head Shops” opened up in our neighborhoods (Head being short for Dope Head). They had underground newspapers that preached Communism, Socialism, a distrust of authority, the evil of corporations and “Hippie living.” And underground comix that were filled with graphic sexual images. They also sold “roach clips,” spring-loaded pincers to put on the end of your joint / marijuana / so that that you didn’t burn your fingers while getting your last toke.

And across the street from the Wayne State University campus? A bookstore filled floor to ceiling with books about eastern mysticism. As long as it wasn’t Christian, it was OK. There is a place not far from me that offers “Hippie Yoga.”

Wake up folks. We were lied to.

Ed
 
If that is a matter of discipline, then it can change right? Maybe someday, the 1962 missal can be said in the vernacular.
Hi, Jon. Long time no see. Have you tried the Ordinariate Masses yet?

When I was working with Una Voce back in the late 90’s, a joke was being circulated among us. A young altar boy was told he’d be serving a Tridentine Mass. Then the priest started, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. I will go into the altar of God.” to which the server responded “And I will go the heck out of here!” (Turned out to be an Anglican Mass.)
 
And across the street from the Wayne State University campus? A bookstore filled floor to ceiling with books about eastern mysticism. As long as it wasn’t Christian, it was OK. There is a place not far from me that offers “Hippie Yoga.”

Wake up folks. We were lied to.
I’m not saying to try them, but in their defense, Eastern practices offered Yoga, Transcendental Meditation, and other things which IMO allowed for more contemplation among other things. I know because I tried TM back in the 70’s. (It was invented by an Indian physicist, of all people.) And then I realized I didn’t need all that stuff and that the Church through the Old Mass had contemplative prayer all along. It’s really a shame this type of contemplation is not taught in schools much.
 
I’m not saying to try it, but in their defense, Eastern practices offered Yoga, Transcendental Meditation, and other things which IMO allowed for more contemplation among other things. I know because I tried TM back in the 70’s. And then I realized I didn’t need all that stuff and that the Church through the Old Mass had contemplative prayer all along. It’s really a shame this type of contemplation is not taught in schools much.
The Church, and the time period, offered all the contemplation anyone needed. The poisonous spread of altered mind states has led to demonic possession. I could mention other things being offered at the time that were quite damaging but I’ll let the curious rediscover what the Church tells us to contemplate.

Ed
 
The Church, and the time period, offered all the contemplation anyone needed. The poisonous spread of altered mind states has led to demonic possession. I could mention other things being offered at the time that were quite damaging but I’ll let the curious rediscover what the Church tells us to contemplate.

Ed
What contemplation are you referring to that the Church and the time period offered?
 
The Church did not change dramatically. That will always be the point. What happened is there were those inside the Church and those outside that wanted to wreck it and wreck society, which they gradually did, in stages. Each one leading to a little worse, a little worse, and a little worse as the decades passed.
For traditionalist Catholics, the Church has changed. We can debate the causes, the time frames, and the definition of “dramatic”, but the Church was never the same after Vatican II.

One could debate whether Vatican II was the cause of these changes, or if these were secular societal changes that transpired as a result of a decay in society in general. That’s not the point.

As I noted, traditionalists cite multiple changes to which they disagree: liturgical “abuse”, objections to “guitar Masses” and “teen Masses”, removal of Gregorian Chant, communion in the hand versus kneeling at the altar, changes in church architecture, etc. Traditionalists often cite multiple changes to which they object.

Traditionalists also will argue that had the Mass stayed the same, it might have served as a bulwark to repel the deterioration of secular society in the West.

Please note - I am not disagreeing with you. I am simply stating that traditionalist Catholics are quite vocal about the changes that have taken place since the Vatican II time frame. They view these changes as problematic.
 
Longing Soul,

I believe you are trying, but there are several logical problems with your arguments.
  1. Equivocations. The first problem that I see is that you don’t define your terms well, and some concepts are all mixed up. In your post 70, for example, you write ‘‘no particular type of Remembrance [is] infallible’’. The trouble here is in the words "type of Remembrance’’ and ‘‘infallible.’’ Infallibility, as a concept, never properly speaking applies to an action. An action is moral, immoral, licit, prudent, etc. but only categorical statements can be fallible or infallible. That being the case, it is of course true that a Mass (Sacrificial Remembrance) is not ‘‘infallible,’’ any more than my giving a poor man alms is ‘‘infallible.’’ ‘‘Type of remembrance’’ is problematic because of a little monastic concept ‘‘Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.’’
‘‘The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief.’’ The fundamental theologian and Vatican II architect Yves Congar pointed out that many, many faithful Catholics would give heretical statement after heretical statement if asked to describe Christ’s Hypostatic Union. Are they, therefore, heretics? Congar persuasively replied that no, they are not heretics because they pray in such a way that presupposes orthodox belief - whatever their difficulties in discursively explaining their beliefs. ‘‘An arian could never pray as a Catholic does’’ Congar wrote.

That concept applies to the Mass as well: in your post 66, you significantly call the Mass a "Sacrificial Remembrance.’’ That word ‘‘sacrificial’’ is necessary. If it is not there, then it is not what Christ intends. That is why John the Evangelist depicts Christ crucified on the Day of Preparation - the day on which the lambs were sacrificed for the Passover - but omits the synoptic Gospels’ inclusion of the Last Supper. The Sacrifice is the Last Supper. John’s sacrificial imagery goes so far as to quote prophecy drawn from the Jewish sacrificial litury : ‘‘Not a bone of Him shall be broken’’ (19:36).

When it boils down to it, if you don’t have sacrifice, you don’t have Christ’s intention, no matter what other way you have chosen to remember Him. And so we can conclude that, yes, there is a ‘‘type of remembrance’’ which is prescribed for the Church: that type is sacrifice - and in particular, Eucharistic Sacrifice.
  1. Red Herring. Another problem I find is in your post 66, regarding Latin. You correctly observe that Latin was not the original language of the liturgy. But that is utterly irrelevant.
The fundamental theologians from Van Balthazar to Ratzinger to Pie Noit have cautioned against ‘‘archeologism.’’ This is declaring a golden age, and trying to fit the Church’s structures into that age - even when that golden age is the Apostolic Era. Latin ought to be retained in the Liturgy, not because it was the original, but because it has, over the course of centuries, become a Sacred Language. The concept is theologically the same as Sacred Space (the justification for the efficacy of pilgrimages) and Sacred Time (which explains the spirituality and doctrine regarding the Liturgical Year); simply put, Latin gained over time a particular element which is spiritually valuable - and it is because of that particular element that it ought to be persevered. I believe, then that you get it backwards when you write that Latin is treated as grounded in the ‘‘origin… of Catholicism when recall that doesn’t reflect its origin.’’ It is Latin’s contact with Catholicism that has made Latin important, not Catholicism’s contact with Latin that has made Catholicism important.
We are a pilgrim Church on earth and pilgrims while travelling and living together are the antithesis of a settled once and for all culture.
  1. Begging the Question. Finally, I believe that, in this statement, you are assuming the very point you are attempting prove (i.e. that the Church ought to adapt to the culture).
Beneath its open surface, it is a surprisingly rigid statement. It is a hallmark of our current dominant philosophy to think change is a virtue - and that its progress is inevitable. The title of the Emperor in the West was Conservator Mundi; if the Empire is the world’s paradise, then the main job of the Emperor must be to conserve it as it is. The medievals thought similarly, but felt the fall of the empire so keenly that they spent 1000 years trying (successfully) to preserve greco-roman culture; the reason we possess pre-renaissance western literature at all is because of the Europeans’ decided beliefs in a non-progressive teleology. It is only in the past four-hundred years that people have begun to think of cultural-change as something good or inevitable.

To say, then, that the Church as ‘‘pilgrim’’ means that the Church ought to change with the culture is a statement that would have no precedent in pre-modern ages. Under what authority except current popularity would you claim that your fluid notion of culture is self-evident, and the non-progressive notion of cultural-preservation of the romans and medievals obsolete? ‘‘Reactionary’’ is a relatively recent word for a relatively recent concept, but its nativity marks a new rigidity: all ideas that are not in motion are in se repulsive. I do deny that belief, and since the only justification for it at the moment is the assumption that that belief is true, I find that, as it stands, you are assuming what you are trying to prove.
 
Yes , we are , Commenter.
Sorry I cannot highlight right now for you but here are the links.
‘‘Fate’’ may be used in English to signify a metaphysical force predetermining personal events, or it may be used simply to describe some kind of a terminal end (e.g. ''it was for him an unhappy fate"). You, Commenter, and the Vatican documents may all use the words ‘‘pilgrim church’’ - but may not be talking about the same thing.

The Catechism’s 815th paragraph, for example, lists some elements of manifest unity in the Church. This indicates that the essence of the Church is not infinitely plastic. A person may, for example, use the term ‘‘pilgrim church’’ to mean that the Church ought to read the signs of the times and therefore adapt to changes in public opinion regarding morality - but that would be an incorrect use of the term.

I doubt that Commenter would ban use of the words; it’s the way they are used that bites.
 
Longing Soul,

I believe you are trying, but there are several logical problems with your arguments.
  1. Equivocations. The first problem that I see is that you don’t define your terms well, and some concepts are all mixed up. In your post 70, for example, you write ‘‘no particular type of Remembrance [is] infallible’’. The trouble here is in the words "type of Remembrance’’ and ‘‘infallible.’’ Infallibility, as a concept, never properly speaking applies to an action. An action is moral, immoral, licit, prudent, etc. but only categorical statements can be fallible or infallible. That being the case, it is of course true that a Mass (Sacrificial Remembrance) is not ‘‘infallible,’’ any more than my giving a poor man alms is ‘‘infallible.’’ ‘‘Type of remembrance’’ is problematic because of a little monastic concept ‘‘Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.’’
‘‘The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief.’’ The fundamental theologian and Vatican II architect Yves Congar pointed out that many, many faithful Catholics would give heretical statement after heretical statement if asked to describe Christ’s Hypostatic Union. Are they, therefore, heretics? Congar persuasively replied that no, they are not heretics because they pray in such a way that presupposes orthodox belief - whatever their difficulties in discursively explaining their beliefs. ‘‘An arian could never pray as a Catholic does’’ Congar wrote.

That concept applies to the Mass as well: in your post 66, you significantly call the Mass a "Sacrificial Remembrance.’’ That word ‘‘sacrificial’’ is necessary. If it is not there, then it is not what Christ intends. That is why John the Evangelist depicts Christ crucified on the Day of Preparation - the day on which the lambs were sacrificed for the Passover - but omits the synoptic Gospels’ inclusion of the Last Supper. The Sacrifice is the Last Supper. John’s sacrificial imagery goes so far as to quote prophecy drawn from the Jewish sacrificial litury : ‘‘Not a bone of Him shall be broken’’ (19:36).

When it boils down to it, if you don’t have sacrifice, you don’t have Christ’s intention, no matter what other way you have chosen to remember Him. And so we can conclude that, yes, there is a ‘‘type of remembrance’’ which is prescribed for the Church: that type is sacrifice - and in particular, Eucharistic Sacrifice.
  1. Red Herring. Another problem I find is in your post 66, regarding Latin. You correctly observe that Latin was not the original language of the liturgy. But that is utterly irrelevant.
The fundamental theologians from Van Balthazar to Ratzinger to Pie Noit have cautioned against ‘‘archeologism.’’ This is declaring a golden age, and trying to fit the Church’s structures into that age - even when that golden age is the Apostolic Era. Latin ought to be retained in the Liturgy, not because it was the original, but because it has, over the course of centuries, become a Sacred Language. The concept is theologically the same as Sacred Space (the justification for the efficacy of pilgrimages) and Sacred Time (which explains the spirituality and doctrine regarding the Liturgical Year); simply put, Latin gained over time a particular element which is spiritually valuable - and it is because of that particular element that it ought to be preserved. I believe, then that you get it backwards when you write that Latin is treated as grounded in the ‘‘origin… of Catholicism when recall that doesn’t reflect its origin.’’ It is Latin’s contact with Catholicism that has made Latin important, not Catholicism’s contact with Latin that has made Catholicism important.
  1. Begging the Question. Finally, I believe that, in this statement, you are assuming the very point you are attempting prove (i.e. that the Church ought to adapt to the culture).
Beneath its open surface, it is a surprisingly rigid statement. It is a hallmark of our current dominant philosophy to think change is a virtue - and that its progress is inevitable. The title of the Emperor in the West was Conservator Mundi; if the Empire is the world’s paradise, then the main job of the Emperor must be to conserve it as it is. The medievals thought similarly, but felt the fall of the empire so keenly that they spent 1000 years trying (successfully) to preserve greco-roman culture; the reason we possess pre-renaissance western literature at all is because of the Europeans’ decided beliefs in a non-progressive teleology. It is only in the past four-hundred years that people have begun to think of cultural-change as something good or inevitable.

To say, then, that the Church as ‘‘pilgrim’’ means that the Church ought to change with the culture is a statement that would have no precedent in pre-modern ages. Under what authority except current popularity would you claim that your fluid notion of culture is self-evident, and the non-progressive notion of cultural-preservation of the romans and medievals obsolete? ‘‘Reactionary’’ is a relatively recent word for a relatively recent concept, but its nativity marks a new rigidity: all ideas that are not in motion are in se repulsive. I do deny that belief, and since the only justification for it at the moment is the assumption that that belief is true, I find that, as it stands, you are assuming what you are trying to prove.
 
If that is a matter of discipline, then it can change right? Maybe someday, the 1962 missal can be said in the vernacular.
It is not so simple. The 1962 missal is really and truly different, theologically, then the current liturgical books. This is no cause for alarm, because theology is not doctrine - even though most people confuse the two. Unfortunately, most priests today would not pray the 1962 missal; the monastic proverb is Led Orandi, Led Credendi (the Law of prayer is the Law of belief), and many priests no longer believe in the theological cradle that the 1962 missal is nestled in.

Basically, if most priests do not use the 1962 missal, it is not for cosmetic reasons such as the fact it is in Latin, but because of theological reasons such as that they no longer primarily think of the Mass as sacrifice.
 
By mechanized, I am referring to the inability of the priest saying the Latin Mass to improvise. In the Tridentine Mass, the priest’s actions are carefully orchestrated, with little ability for the priest to make improvisations with the liturgy.

.
This is one of the essential things about the Latin Mass. Especially as the people didn’t really understand Latin, the faithful could use the priest’s physical movements (as well as the bell ringing) to know what part of the mass was coming down. The hand missals that you’ll see latin mass-goers carry, that’s a relatively new phenomenon (maybe a hundred years or so), and in traditional times wasn’t universal at all. The missals sometimes included pics of where the priest is at certain points in the mass, again going to the importance placed upon the rules (or rubrics) that were dictated
 
I wish our priest rang the bells during Mass (I don’t know if they have a specific name). I find them meaningful. I think they are rung at the time of consecration? it seems more reverent. was that something done in every Catholic church before Vatican II or has it always been optional.
 
‘‘Fate’’ may be used in English to signify a metaphysical force predetermining personal events, or it may be used simply to describe some kind of a terminal end (e.g. ''it was for him an unhappy fate"). You, Commenter, and the Vatican documents may all use the words ‘‘pilgrim church’’ - but may not be talking about the same thing.

The Catechism’s 815th paragraph, for example, lists some elements of manifest unity in the Church. This indicates that the essence of the Church is not infinitely plastic. A person may, for example, use the term ‘‘pilgrim church’’ to mean that the Church ought to read the signs of the times and therefore adapt to changes in public opinion regarding morality - but that would be an incorrect use of the term.

I doubt that Commenter would ban use of the words; it’s the way they are used that bites.
Excuse me…let’ s not make things complicated…these links were Church documents.
We can read and learn.

We are a pilgrim Church.

Here is Pope Francis.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-church-isnt-static-shes-a-pilgrim-on-a-journey-pope-says-86122/
 
The usage of the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ depends on what is actually meant by that term.

If it is used in the context of the Church having a mission to carry out here on Earth, then yes the Church is a pilgrim Church and it’s mission is very clear - “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. Make disciples of all, baptise them, and teach them to obey God’s commandments - that is what the Church’s mission is.

But when we stand before God to face our own judgement, we do not stand as a collective body, we stand alone. So while the Church can help people journey towards Heaven, each individual is on his own journey. The Church may be a body of pilgrims, but within that body each pilgrim is making his own journey for which he is responsible.

However to use the term pilgrim Church in the context of Church that is changing and moulding herself, taking her inspiration from the world around her, and from the people around her, and seeing this as a sign of what she should become is very wrong and effectively views prevailing societal norms as an alternative magisterium. And when some people use the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ these are the connotations that are implied, often along with a suggestion that a ‘new’ Church was formed at Vatican II, and that this moulding of the Church to the world (often throwing in the term ‘signs of the times’) is part of the journey that the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ is leading on.

I can fully understand why quite a few people get a bit ‘twitchy’ when the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ is used.
 
The usage of the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ depends on what is actually meant by that term.

If it is used in the context of the Church having a mission to carry out here on Earth, then yes the Church is a pilgrim Church and it’s mission is very clear - “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. Make disciples of all, baptise them, and teach them to obey God’s commandments - that is what the Church’s mission is.

But when we stand before God to face our own judgement, we do not stand as a collective body, we stand alone. So while the Church can help people journey towards Heaven, each individual is on his own journey. The Church may be a body of pilgrims, but within that body each pilgrim is making his own journey for which he is responsible.

However to use the term pilgrim Church in the context of Church that is changing and moulding herself, taking her inspiration from the world around her, and from the people around her, and seeing this as a sign of what she should become is very wrong and effectively views prevailing societal norms as an alternative magisterium. And when some people use the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ these are the connotations that are implied, often along with a suggestion that a ‘new’ Church was formed at Vatican II, and that this moulding of the Church to the world (often throwing in the term ‘signs of the times’) is part of the journey that the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ is leading on.

I can fully understand why quite a few people get a bit ‘twitchy’ when the term ‘Pilgrim Church’ is used.
What if we try to get it right as from Church teaching , Brendan ?
What is the purpose of perpetuating the ’ twitch" ?
And I am frankly asking. .
Who would settle it ?
 
What if we try to get it right as from Church teaching , Brendan ?
What is the purpose of perpetuating the ’ twitch" ?
And I am frankly asking. .
Who would settle it ?
Well using the term as it is meant in line with Church teaching is fine, but unfortunately it has become one of the cliches, along with ‘signs of the times’, that have become very associated with the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ and are often used to imply that the Church needs to ‘change with the times’ and look to society around her for guidance and inspiration on that process of change.

Until such time as these connotations become irrelevant, it is probably best to avoid using the term. That probably means waiting until the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ movement eventually fizzles away.
 
Well using the term as it is meant in line with Church teaching is fine, but unfortunately it has become one of the cliches, along with ‘signs of the times’, that have become very associated with the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ and are often used to imply that the Church needs to ‘change with the times’ and look to society around her for guidance and inspiration on that process of change.

Until such time as these connotations become irrelevant, it is probably best to avoid using the term. That probably means waiting until the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ movement eventually fizzles away.
Code:
Have you read Ratzinger 's ?
It is a bit more.difficult …

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECCV2.HTM
 
Excuse me…let’ s not make things complicated…these links were Church documents.
We can read and learn.

We are a pilgrim Church.
You see, 'tis precisely the problem; thing are complicated. To take a different example, could you explain to me the significance of, say, the concept known as ‘‘the Body of Christ’’ and its true and false interpretations?

You may say ‘‘We are a pilgrim church’’ until the cats congregate, but the use of the words alone doesn’t mean that you’re theologically in the clear. That is what Brendan is saying; words, even religious words, are not magic; each theological concept has implications and can be used correctly or incorrectly. Saying to me not to complicate things is to over-simplify them.

So let’s look at this idea of Pilgrim Church. Every pilgrimage has a destination, and a path that the pilgrim takes. Question for you: What is the destination, and what is the path?
 
You see, 'tis precisely the problem; thing are complicated. To take a different example, could you explain to me the significance of, say, the concept known as ‘‘the Body of Christ’’ and its true and false interpretations?

You may say ‘‘We are a pilgrim church’’ until the cats congregate, but the use of the words alone doesn’t mean that you’re theologically in the clear. That is what Brendan is saying; words, even religious words, are not magic; each theological concept has implications and can be used correctly or incorrectly. Saying to me not to complicate things is to over-simplify them.

So let’s look at this idea of Pilgrim Church. Every pilgrimage has a destination, and a path that the pilgrim takes. Question for you: What is the destination, and what is the path?
Excuse me again… I said Let “us” not you,specifically.
And since I was not born knowing I provided documents so we can read and learn.and try and get.it right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top