why do some people think Catholics don't know Jesus?

[Tanner9188]

That’s not true Tanner…you’re projecting an interpretation onto the text that it doesn’t say. When Jesus makes that statement about enduring to the end He is speaking specifically to believers.

Perseverance of the saints, not the unbelievers, is all over Scripture; do you not believe God when He said; “He who began a good work in you will (Himself) complete till the day of Jesus Christ?” Do you believe what God has said and what He meant by what He said?

Correct here as well, but there’s nothing to support that a person cannot forsake Christ and lose salvation.

 

[guanophore]

The reason christians say that catholics dont really know Jesus is because of a lot of the things the catholic church teaches goes against the bible and contradicts it.

Your comparison of “christians” to Catholics is offensive. It implies that Catholics are not Christians.

Even if what you were saying was true about contradictions(which it is not) what does that have to do with Catholics knowing Jesus?

I think that you believe a lot of things that are not in the Bible, but I don’t question that you believe you know the Lord.

Someone on here said “For Catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the Eucharist. For many Protestants, it is centered around His word, through scripture.” Okay that right there should be a big sign that pops up and question mark. If you look up and study the background of the “eucharist” its actually came from the egyptians and their sun god that they worshiped called osiris. The egyptian priests would pray over these wafers to make them “holy” than they told the people that a miracle had happened and said that the wafer had turned into the flesh of the sun god, osiris. They, like the catholic church, called it transubstantiation. And the people took it and ate it, much like the catholics do in the church today. So it really does not have to do with God at all.

Follow, you have been grossly misled. It appears you have been eating Chick Tracts for breakfast.

Communion, as it says in Gods word, is to do it in rememberance of Jesus and what he went through and did for us, your not actually taking the body of Jesus or He is not really dying on the cross everytime catholics pray over the wafer.

It might benefit you to investigate amanesis, Follow. By the way, the Catholic Church does nto teach that there is more than one sacrifice.

So when that guy said for catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the eucharist, in reality, what it really means is the catholic church is centered around the sun god, and this can be proven in many paintings, pictures, or any art really in or from the catholic church or catholics.

Follow, I have not seen anyone on here for a long time that is full of so much misinformation as you have been.

It might help you to study the Passover also.

You can see a bright star around jesus or mary or a sun and moon looking down on Jesus on the cross. A lot of that also comes from pagans. So catholicism is not really based on God as much as its based on a mixture of other religions, trying to bring them into and under the catholic religion,

What you are describing here is a form of art. Your theory holds no merit, because this type of art was only popular in the West, and is not found in the Eastern Churches. Then again, you probably don’t know they exist!

which pretty much already happend on october 27, 1986 under pope john paul II.

I am curious what you thought happened!

 Now the reason why most christians go by the word of God and speak of it more or be more "expressive" about God is beacuse the bible says we are to go and preach about God so that others can be saved and have the love of God.....

This statement seems to suppose that Catholics don’t read the Word of God.

We are supposed to read the bible, you cant depend on a religion or a church for everything on God for they are not God, just as that verse 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, God does not speak in the wisdom of man but of what the Holy Ghost teaches and says, becasue you have to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. Thats why you see Christians more joyful or outgoing about God becasue by reading the bible and worshiping and getting filled with the Holy Ghost brings great joy and love for God and a closer and better relationship with Him.

I agree that reading the Bible does increase one’s faith and knowledge of Christ. However, I think the reason we see so many “outgoing” meetings is because people are caught up into their emotions.

The catholic church does not speak on these things but more on doing good deeds and works and trying to live a good life, is the way to get to heaven which is wrong and goes against the bible.

It may go against your PERCEPTION of the Bible, but it is very biblical.

Singing praise songs, speaking in tongues, and dancing about in great joy does not get one into heaven either.

“For it is by grace you have been saved and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

“Jesus said to Him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

‘I tell you the truth, unless one is born again, he cannot be in God’s kingdom.’ John 3:3

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him…” Revelation 3:20

“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9

You have quoted a lot of great Catholic writings here. Not sure why?

Also another thing The catholic church teaches prayers to mary and that she is a mediator between earth and heaven that she helps us by calming Jesus or putting in a good word for us, which is not true at all it goes against the bible.

You are right, this is not true at all. You have been misled about many things “Catholic”. Apparently your perception of what “catholic” is veers very far from reality.

You have also been misled to believe that everything must correspond to your perceptions of scripture. This is also false.

Jesus is not an angry Lord that needs to be clamed down by his mother, nor does mary need to be prayed to

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[Church_Militant]

Perseverance of the saints, not the unbelievers, is all over Scripture; do you not believe God when He said; “He who began a good work in you will (Himself) complete till the day of Jesus Christ?” Do you believe what God has said and what He meant by what He said?

Of course I do…but I disagree with your errant modern interpretation of these scriptures and so has the Christian church for some 2,000 years.

Perhaps you have never read Romans? See the doxology at the end of chapter eight. Paul thought of every possible scenario to eliminate any doubt that anyone or anything on earth or in the spiritual realm can separate His children from the Father’s love.

I’ve read the Word of God all the way through many times Tanner, which is one treason that I am Catholic and also why I reject your errant interpretations. Nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus and I can attest to His faithfulness to me personally, but the New Testament does not support OSAS/Eternal Security as you set it forth.

Perhaps you may not have read and/or understood John 17.
"…You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

I could read this chapter over and over again; it is the loveliest prayer in all of Scripture IMO.
Moving further after establishing Who has authority over all flesh; Jesus my Lord and King.

We all have favorite passages Tanner. I have mine too, but that is not the point here. No one can assert that they know the condition of another human soul since only God can know that.

To keep this on topic, there is nothing upon which n-C/a-Cs can factually base their allegations that we faithful Catholics do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. I personally think that we know Him at least as well or better than most of the n-Cs/a-Cs who might make this kind of allegation.

John 10 - 26 - 29

Good luck on trying to get away from God if you are truly given by the Father to the Son; I have no intention of trying.

Never said I would, though I have in the past, only to prove the truth of the scripture in Psalm 139 that says, “7] Whither shall I go from thy Spirit?
Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8] If I ascend to heaven, thou art there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!
9] If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10] even there thy hand shall lead me,
and thy right hand shall hold me.
11] If I say, “Let only darkness cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12] even the darkness is not dark to thee,
the night is bright as the day;
for darkness is as light with thee.”

The rest of that passage is also one of my personal favorites.

There is a fairly famous poem that I love very much called “The Hound of Heaven” that pretty much recounts Francis Thompson’s experience of the truth of that passage and Luke 15. I highly recommend it to you.

Is that what the text actually says?
What is the topic of these passages? Forgiveness among believers. What does God do in His love to those believers that show no compassion for the brethren? He chastens; in this case the slave was severely chastened and warns believers about what He will do to a brother or sister that does not forgive on another.

Absolutely nothing to do with losing salvation;

Really? You are way wrong there Tanner, look at what the Lord actually says there. “32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.”

Here you are really messed up because at the very least it teaches loss of salvation, but even if you were right…it works against you in that it can easily be used to support the Catholic teaching of Purgatory. If, as you say, God chastises His wayward children, and we know that He does, then here is a prime example of that Purgatorial chastisement.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

for one thing a person that God has entrusted to the Son cannot be snatch away; for God has spoken that no one can. I couldn’t imagine a bigger fool that would even if they were able to.

Just because you cannot imagine it does not make it less so Tanner. Since when do you claim to know all that God does? I would agree though…again, from past experience…that such a person is not acting in the wisest way.

Again; those that hold fast are believers; those that don’t hold fast or endure prove that God is not working in them, they honor Him with their Lips, but their hearts are far from Him…God calls this “lip Service”.

No! Really Tanner? Maybe you should look at the Gospel reading from today’s Mass. Gosh…we were just exhorted to be sure that we didn’t give empty lip service instead of a deep and full conversion of heart, taking up our crosses daily and following the Lord Jesus.

Unfortunately, you can’t seem to get past the interpretations that you have been taught and simply read what is there in the scripture.

I do not think you are capable of understand theses things at this point; but it does not need to remain so; I will pray now that God will grant you eyes to see and ears to hear. God bless you!

And I think you must have a fish in your ear because you are here telling me I don’t know something when the fact is that you are sitting there preaching an errant modern doctrine of men that has no basis in the Word of God or in the 2,000 years of authentic Christian teaching, but only the modern errors of some 500 years ago or less.

 

[guanophore]

for she was just a human that the Lord used for an amazing thing, for it was not through her that the amazing birth of Jesus happend, but through God.

You make it sound like Jesus just passed through her like a steak dinner goes through a person!

we do not need to pray to anyone but Him alone for He is the only one that has made such sacrifice for us, and is our only God and saviour.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about intercession, also.

And the catholic church does many many other things that contradicts the bible.

No, Follow. This is a falsehood. I am sure you are repeating it because you believe it in all sincerity, but that does not change the fact that you are spreading lies. Even if you did not make up the lies yourself, spreading them is wrong.

The only way to know the truth is by the word of God alone!

Really? where does it say that in your bible?

You don’t seem to realize that your Bible says the opposite.

You have to spend time reading His word and just sit and pray and talk to Him about things

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

instead of going to a priest or someone else.

The two are not mutually exclusive, Follow. Seeking the assistance of others along the way to the straight and narrow road is a good thing. I agree, though, seeking help from our elders in the faith is not a substititue for personal spiritual disciplines.

If you pray and ask God to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins and really mean it than i guarantee you will feel different.

Really? And on what basis can you “guarantee” that? If a person does what you prescribe, and does not feel different, why is that?

And by reading the bible it gives such closer perspective and a better understanding on God and what He has for each of us. If you ask God ‘who are you?’ What do you have for me?’ He will speak to you. Its such an incredible feeling to be in the presence of God and to walk with Him and talk with Him.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

But you cant depend on religion for religion is a man made thing therefore is imperfect and has flaws. God is not about religion and traditions, but about love and relationship.

I think you need to check with your NT and see what it says about religion. You have been misled.

If God were not also about religion and traditions, He would not have created the Jewish faith. Both things are true.

 

[guanophore]

Just because you have faith in something does not mean you get the gift of faith. The gift of faith comes from having faith in Him ALONE. which the catholic church does not. Such as faith in mary, and prayers to mary, saints, etc.

I agree, having faith in something (or someone) does not mean one has the Gift of Faith. However, it is wrong to say that we are to have faith in Him alone. If He wanted this, He would not have chosen to come to us through a woman, nor would He have created saints, and founded a Church. Jesus is not “alone”, but is accompanied by a great cloud of witnesses.

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
Matthew 7:15

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” Galatians 1:6-7

You are quoting these great Catholic writings…not sure why.

All religions do not worship the same god, as catholics say, and they do. Look up october 27, 1986 with pope john paul II.

Do you think that Pope John Paul II was not following the teaching of Jesus on that day?

Anyway, all of this about Catholics not knowing Jesus only goes to show ignorance on the part of Protestants (in this group).

Unfortunately finding that the Protestants here that respect Catholics are actually just “ignorant” does not asuage my indignation over being told I am not a Christian.

Living the word of God? Living the word of God does not involve bowing down or praying to other gods (statues).

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Have you even researched the past of the catholic church or vatican???

Yes.

Do you hear about any sexual harassment or molested children in a christian church?

Yes.

No all of these priests and nuns have been doing this for centuries, and its because its to great a burden to not get married and etc.

No, Follow. You are right that abuse has been going on since the fall of man, but it has nothing to do with the gift of celibacy. A person who will violate a vow of celibacy is not more likely to keep a marriage vow.

That is no where in the bible! The catholic church has blinded and totally brain-washed so many people! My heart goes out to the poor blinded catholic followers.

Well, save your heart, Follow. CAF is not a venue for you to pour out your heart for this purpose. Your posts demonstrate a gross lack of knowledge and vast misleading about the Catholic faith. Your broken heart, therefore, is just based on a lot of misinformation.

The popes have commited mass murders, fornications, wages of war, the list goes on and on.

It is a fact that there have been persons in the office of the papacy that were not models of sanctity.

They were behind the holocaust and the rise of hitler. Does anyone ever ask how come the vatican is their own government?? and has their nose into everything?

Follow, I hope that you are able to curb some of this anti-Catholic rhetoric long enough to learn the untruth of what you are stating. You may not realize that there are a lot more reliable sources of history than Jack Chick Tracts.

And the current pope even said that the holocaust never happened! WOW! and you call the pope your “holy father” if thats not the biggest blasphemous thing ive ever heard than i dont know what is!

Follow, what is even more serious is the fact that you are bearing false witness against your neighbor. I am sure you believe all these things, but it is still wrong to spread such misinformation.

Now catholics are loving, caring, and good people but they are mislead, and deceived by the high powers of the catholic church. Catholics are not Christians, if that were true how come they are their own religion? Why do they not call it christianity instead of catholicism?

Someone here is clearly misled, and probably by some “high powers”.

 

[guanophore]

I am not saying the NT writers or Jesus stole anything from the egyptians, for Christ or the Nt writers did not teach about the eucharist.

You know every time I think I have heard everything on here, I get one of these eye openers.

If the catholic church is supposed to be about God than how come they dont abide by His word exactly as it says? instead they add and take out things and make up their own “docterine”. And call it RELIGION.

Follow, the Catholic Church produced the NT. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

To a spiritualist the doctrines of the fleshly faith are ghastly in their grossness. The foundation of the creed was laid in a physical resurrection of the body ; and the flesh and blood of that body were to be eaten in the eucharistic rite as a physical mode of incorporating the divine. It is true the doctrine of transubstantiation was added to gild the dead body for eating. But the historical rendering of the matter necessitated the substitution of the physical for the spiritual interpretation. The founders only carried off the carnalized Horus, the Karast-mummy, for their Christ. They raised him from the grave corporeally ; whereas the Egyptians left that type of Osiris in matter, that image of Horus on earth in the tomb. Horus did rise again, but not in matter. He spiritualized to become the superhuman or divine Horus. The Egyptians did not exhume the fleshly body, living or dead, to eat it with the expectation of assimilating Horus to themselves or becoming Horus by assimilating the blood and body of his physical substance. This was what was done by the Christian Sarkolatras. (Rit, ch. 17).

theres your proof, do research.

No, Follow.

If you are going to cut and paste, you have to cite your source. Please include a link next time.

If you wish to “prove” something against the Catholic faith, you will have to use Catholic documents.

Yes i know it means that. But where is scripture that says that? Oh, wait, the "chruch: told you that. Its in one of your doctrine?..Follow God Alone!! READ THE BIBLE BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO BELIEVE IN WHAT RELIGION TELLS YOU!

This is in the Bible. You just interpret it differently that we do.

 You have to make sure its the right church.

Sounds like the “right” one is the one you belong to. Which Church is that?

:rotfl: haha wow, you need to do research. Do you even know what a pagan is? I would think you would know more about paganism, considering the fact that you are catholic and all.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated.

Yes, I know what a Pagan is.

I don’t know of any Pagans that make idols out of books, though.

Does the church have statues and pictures of mary, saints, pope, that you pray to and bow down to? Have you turned them in to idols?

No.

But it sounds like someone misled you to believe that we do.

And did you know that the holiday that we celebrate today (created by the catholic church) are actually pagan holidays. Such as christmas, where i nthe bible does it give the specific date that Jesus was born? It doesnt.

This is very true! The Church purposefully replaced Pagan holidays with Christian feast days to encourage Chrisitans to worship God on those days, instead of reverting to Pagan practices. That was the same Church that assembled your bible. Do you have a problem with that?

Obviously not cause your still catholic.

Do you imagine that Catholics cannot be Christians?

Do you believe that, if Catholics came to know the Lord, then we would “come out from her” (the catholic church)?

 

[guanophore]

But you treat them as if they are gods and they are still idols, therefore doesnt make much difference if you actually see/call them gods or not.

No, Follow, we do not treat then as gods, and they are not idols. Such behavior is a violation of the first commandment. And it certainl does make a difference if we see and call them Gods. One cannot worship without intention. This is one of the identifying marks of worship.

Yes I have always wondered how people who get married **never ever ** commit crimes of molestation… Never. Doesn’t ever happen…

Clearly you are very uneducated in this matter. On the contrary, the vast majority of pedophiles are married.

Yes God forbid the people really responsible for Hitlers atrocities (cough Hitler cough) are held accountable for their actions.

Who helped him or supported him? (cough vatican cough)
his parents are even burried on a catholic cemetry!

Are you part of some sort of Neo Nazi group?

His parents are Catholic! Of course they are buried in a Catholic Cemetery.

John Paul II in Jerusalem in March 2000, in which his predecessor had asked for “forgiveness” for the past persecution of Jews by Christians. Now thats strange…why would they have to ask for forgineness? Oh right…because of the persecution jews.

I think you have a lot to learn about the history of your faith.

 

[erikd]

All religions do not worship the same god, as catholics say, and they do. Look up october 27, 1986 with pope john paul II.

Okay, I’ll bite. This was the “World Day of Prayer for Peace” held in Assisi, Italy, where approx. 120 members of different Religions and Christian denominations spent the day fasting and praying for peace. If there was a question, I’d love to answer it, but I don’t see the relevance.

 

[erikd]

Yes God forbid the people really responsible for Hitlers atrocities (cough Hitler cough) are held accountable for their actions.

Who helped him or supported him? (cough vatican cough)

That’s quite an accusation, especially in light of the information we have available about the real actions of Pope Pius XII.

His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, the Pope condemned the invasion of Poland, breaking the neutrality the Vatican previously held during WWI, much to the surprise of the US and Great Britain. He then set up an information network which, from 1939 to 1947 processed over 10 million responses to requests for information regarding prisoners of war. He then went further and instructed convents and seminaries to house Jewish families in protection against Nazi atrocities. In this way, it is estimated that three quarter of a million Jews were saved from the Nazis. This action, by the way, put not only the convents and the seminaries in danger, it put the Vatican in danger as well. Remember where the Vatican is located, next to Rome (Vatican has been a sovereign nation since 1929) and who aligned himself with Hitler (Benito Mussolini). Although Italy, under Mussolini’s leadership did not enter WWII until June 10, 1940, Hitler admired Mussolini and Mussolini was Hitler’s most likely ally. This put the Vatican in grave danger of attack, though our Lord did not allow such an atrocity to take place.

History has a lot to teach us, and your “cough cough” references seem very inappropriate in light of the heroic actions of the Catholic Church during this awful part of our world history.

 

[guanophore]

Can you give me a short example of a prayer you might routinely pray to Mary? Thanks and nice to meet you as well. And I will pray now for you…God bless.

Hail Full of Grace
Blessed are you among women
and Blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, Amen.

 

[Tanner9188]

Hmmm, so 1500 years of Catholic (and Orthodox) teaching on Baptism and ‘coming to God’ are as nothing compared with somebody’s unsupported word that HE knows the ‘real way’ to God.

Tanner, you harp on the few, the few, the few. Well, I do indeed hope that you are one of the ‘few’ who does come to God in eternity, because I hope that for all people. However, on that happy day you might well be surprised to find that you didn’t come to Him because you were ‘right’ but rather, that you will find you came to Him because those you castigated and derided as wrong were the right ones after all (surprise!) and because they prayed for you even in your errors.

You have great faith however misguided. I have no doubts because God knows me and He knows my heart, for He drew me to Him and I came to Him on His terms; not because of a religious affiliation or some phony confessional, but on His terms as it is written.

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you.

 

[estesbob]

You have great faith however misguided. I have no doubts because God knows me and He knows my heart, for He drew me to Him and I came to Him on His terms; not because of a religious affiliation or some phony confessional, but on His terms as it is written.

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you.

How do you know you came to him on his terms? Given you base you entire reltationship on your personal interpreation of scripture it appears you came to him on your terms.

 

[kalt]

Perseverance of the saints, not the unbelievers, is all over Scripture; do you not believe God when He said; “He who began a good work in you will (Himself) complete till the day of Jesus Christ?” Do you believe what God has said and what He meant by what He said?

You seem to be confusing the words preservation and perseverance.

What does perseverance of the saints mean to you? That God will persevere. Of course. That the saints must also? Apparently not.

 

[kalt]

You have great faith however misguided. I have no doubts because God knows me and He knows my heart, for He drew me to Him and I came to Him on His terms; not because of a religious affiliation or some phony confessional, but on His terms as it is written.

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you.

As a sinner, shouldn’t you be even a little concerned that God knows your heart-your impure heart? Nothing that is impure can enter Heaven. So how are you, a sinner, so sure of your salvation?

Because God told you? He told you that you salvation is possible, but that it isn’t guaranteed. Can you not accept that? I think a strong faith in God’s truth and mercy should be enough. Why insist on reworking the deal, holding out for a guarantee that isn’t written into the contract (covenant).

God tells us that he’ll never abandon us. He hasn’t told us that he won’t let us abandon Him. He leaves us with free will, even after conversion, because he leads and doesn’t coerce.

 

[Tanner9188]

Absolutely incorrect. This is true for all baptized in Christ…for who can fall (Rom 11:22) except those who once walked in him? And “endure” (Mt 24:13) holds no meaning for someone who believes he is inevitably bound for heaven already. And no, I don’t want to get into another scriptural debate with you…not only because I know you believe your scriptural interpretations are inerrant, despite compelling evidence to the contrary…but also because it is decidedly off-topic for this thread. But I will say this…

Romans 11 - (Paul)
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, {Speaking of Israel} but you stand by your faith. (His true children) Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches {Israel}, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Things worth noting in this passages ; There are four sets of groups here 1) unbelieving Israel 2) believing individual Jews (ones that are grafted in again) 3) unbelieving people He is speaking to 4) believing individuals he is speaking to
Never in the Bible will you see unbelieving a description of a believer or in direct reference to believers. One would, based on what they have seen and know to be true in the church they attend, have to be blind, ignorant and just plain stupid not to realize there are many people that made a profession, are exposed to the gospel message, are working next to Christians and seen the love of Christ in those, participated in church activities, then walk away and you never see them again. These are not believers; they walk away in unbelief. All this exposure to the truth, yet walk away. What was missing? No change in heart, no dealing with sins, no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Is this not exactly what the Bible describes as “falling away”; of course it is and we have used similar terms to describe people that hung around for a year or two and never seen or heard of again.

When Jesus, in Matthew 24, is speaking about signs of the end…he not only emphasizes endurance is required for salvation, but the endurance of those who love Him…for He says in the verses leading up to 13…

I believe if I am reading this correct, you homed into these versus in particular.
Matthew 24 -
9 "Then they will deliver you *to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time **many will fall away **and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 “But the **one who endures to the end, he will be saved…”

As you may be aware but seem not to understand or be able to pull it all together in your mind, there are always tares among the wheat…right? Are tares saved or unsaved? Are tares exposed to the truth? Do they participated in Heavenly things the church does tasting and observing heavenly gifts wrought in the believers? Can they hang around a long time? Do they often participate in kingdom causes? Can you tell the tare from the wheat? Did they make a profession of Christ?

Could the parable of the soils be a description of the tares? 3 maybe; the 2nd and 3rd for sure.

Now think and look at the two churches of the seven to which Christ had nothing against. Why? Because these churches were under severe persecution. When things get rough who are the first to abandon the church? Tares or wheat? When things get severe; any remaining tares will all be gone and what do you have left in a persecuted church; a pure earthly church. Who will persevere? The wheat? Why? Because it is God that lives in them and through them; otherwise they could not endure. This is why it is the “Perseverance of the saints”. If you cannot persevere to the end, then you never had God in you; for He is the one that has the capacity to endure. Human effort will always fail in this regard; “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;”

Until you are able to let go off the false belief that justification and sanctification are not two sides of the same coin, you will never get past the A,B,C’s.

Justification and Salvation are two sides of the same coin; one is the positive side and the other the negative. Justified; made righteous before God by the imputation of Christs righteousness (forgiven of all sins and the penalty of such). Salvation; saved from something. Saved from what? Sin and the just penalty of that sin.

 

[Tanner9188]

Really Tanner?** I think you offer** the gross misinterpretation of the Word of God because we can look at the New Testament and see that the gospel was clear on this.

No infants? Hogwash Tanner…even the Jews circumcised infants on the 8th day, and THAT by the command of God.

Next you will be telling me that water baptism saves a person, which would contradict the nature of God on how He redeems the remnant, which is the same way in the OT as the NT; faith alone. Romans 10 is the discussion on the whole thing; I have serious doubts that you are able or willing to understand the depth of Romans 10.

If you were to put that passage in the correct Greek structure, you will render the correct English and will confirm what every other place in the Bible teaches on the purpose of water baptism. Consider the infant; first they are not immersed, which in the basic sense of the word baptizō “to immerse” “to submerge”; sprinkling is not immersion is it?

Water baptism is a command; it is the public proclamation of the believers association with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

In fact to believe that water baptism can remove any sin; is to deny the cross sufficiency to fully impute Christ’s righteousness to the believer. Denying, even part, of the work on the cross in any manner is denying the sufficiency of Jesus.

Matthew 3:11 – (cf Luke 3:16) "As for me, I baptize you with 1) water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the 2) Holy Spirit and 3) fire.

Which is the Baptism where God actually dwells in a believer and before He can actually and really dwell He must cleanse and make you a holy and undefiled temple to dwell in?

1. Water 2) Holy Spirit or 3) Fire Which is it ChurchMilitant?

When you say the whole household; where does it say that the household had small children or infants? Or have you imposed on the Word again? Furthermore; the whole household that would be baptized would also have to hear the gospel message and come to repentance and accept Jesus as both Lord and Savior. The fact that it says the whole household was baptized assumes automatically they were told about the gospel and they believed what they had heard. Praise God that the entire household believed!

Does an infant have the ability to make that free-will decision? Nothing more needs to be said to put such a notion to rest.

 

[happilycatholic]

Next you will be telling me that water baptism saves a person, which would contradict the nature of God on how He redeems the remnant, which is the same way in the OT as the NT; faith alone. Romans 10 is the discussion on the whole thing; I have serious doubts that you are able or willing to understand the depth of Romans 10.

If you were to put that passage in the correct Greek structure, you will render the correct English and will confirm what every other place in the Bible teaches on the purpose of water baptism. Consider the infant; first they are not immersed, which in the basic sense of the word baptizō “to immerse” “to submerge”; sprinkling is not immersion is it?

I’m confused. You say faith is what Baptizes a person then you say immersion in the water makes a difference as to whether a person is validly Baptized.

Which is it? The water Baptizes or faith Baptizes a person?

 

[Tanner9188]

Stature schmature Tanner…the fact is that you are espousing a false doctrine that the Word of God does not teach.
Sound reasoning for someone so well respected in you Catholic circle. So far all rhetoric on your part; it is false because ChurchMilitant says it is?

Rather than throwing a piece or pieces of Scripture out there, almost always out of context, why not put a constructive and Biblical based argument in place of the rhetoric?

When I refer to Scripture, I make sure it is in context and I make sure to put 2 or more passages that support that position. On the testimony of 2 or more witnesses is the truth; especially when it is espoused by God’s word; for what higher authority can you appeal, the Catholic Church or ChurchMilitant?

You assert that believers cannot fall away when in fact that is not found in the New Testament. It is a modern new wind of doctrines of men that never existed in Christian teaching until some 500 years ago.

 

[SteveGC]

Can I make a suggestion to all the players on this thread?

Before this becomes an endless debate over the Gospel according to Tanner vs the Gospel according to Christ, can we try to draw out more substantive discussion related to the OP? Specifically, we should be discussing why people think Catholics don’t know Jesus. Yes, Tanner seems to be demonstrating that he believes we don’t on the whole know Jesus (specifically questioning if Jesus knows us), and that’s fine. But when this flies off into tangential debates over baptism, OSAS, faith alone, etc…we move further and further from the point of this thread…which is to discuss the underlying rationale related to why people think Catholics are not fully aware of who Jesus is.

So Tanner…and anyone else here arguing specific doctrinal differences with Catholics…can we limit the posts to discussions of the specific reasons you find Catholics to be lacking in knowledge of Christ? Can we do this without losing ourselves in endless debates about this doctrine or that doctrine of the faith? I’m not saying that some doctrinal debate is not necessary in this sort of discussion…I just don’t think we should resort to completely losing the main thrust of the thread. There are plenty of threads where individual doctrines can be debated in this kind of depth.

Just an observation and request. If it makes more sense to everyone to keep pressing the doctrinal debates, then press on.