why do some people think Catholics don't know Jesus?

[4EverHis]

As a person who has had this experience, I can certainly verify that in my case it did have to do with being poorly catechized. For many years, I did believe that Catholicism “prevented” me from knowing the Lord, and I was very bitter, resentful, and unforgiving.

I was “anti” because I was bearing resentment and unforgiveness. I blamed the Church for the misery of my personal experience. The fact was, I did not “get it” until after I left. I had poor personal role models at home, and poor role models at Catholic School, and “empty” experience at Mass.

I claimed that I had to leave because I was not “being fed” in the Catholic Church. I never learned to read the scriptures or pray on my own. I did not know anything about Bible Study till I fell in with the Baptists. I had never done any conversational prayer. Basically, I was what was mentioned here in another thread recently, Sacramentalized, but unevangelized. I was not really discipled in a way that my soul longed to be.

You are fortunate to have had the experience of knowing the Lord personally while being Catholic. There is a whole generation of us (post Vatican 2) who were fed pungent organic matter and new age drivel. It is no wonder so many became “cafeteria catholics”.

It took me a long time to come back (over 20 years) and I had to spend 3 years in a Protestant Seminary in order to study myself back to the Truth. I will always be grateful to my separated brethren for providing me with role models that lived what they claimed to believe, studied and prayed their scriptures, and taught me how to pray spontaneous prayers.

I still go to Mass and am routinely disappointed by poor homiletics. It does not disturb me as it did before because I have Immaculate Heart Radio and Fr. Corapi now, and I read and study the daily liturgy myself, and don’t depend upon the clergy to “feed” it to me.

One last thought on the many Catholics that leave because they are not “fed” at Mass. I think this condition speaks to the spiritual state of the person in the pew. One can “starve” at Mass, even if one goes every day. This can happen when one approaches Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. The liturgy becomes empty, rote, unsanctifying ritual because one’s heart is not right with God. People in that condition get “itching ears” and want to go elsewhere in search of some teaching that will “meet their needs” and not “condemn” them for living in sin.

Hi, thanks for sharing your thoughts… I think that if some Catholics think they’re not being “fed” at Mass, that is either due to poor catechesis or it’s something they are doing wrong, not the Church. Because I think if someone were to actually realize what the Sacraments are, and to receive them with the right disposition, they’d notice a lot of spiritual growth…much more than any evangelical church can provide, even if it has long sermons and good music. I think many people mistake emotion for spiritual growth, and that’s a deception that’s leading many away from the Sacraments…

 

[4EverHis]

…it is because of the religeous sacraments, protestants believe that catholics go to church in body rather that spirit, they are conditioned to take part but really there heart is elsewhere…

I’d say that’s a judgement on the part of the Protestants…how can we possibly know anyone else’s heart? they’re judging on appearances.

My problems will only take this thread off-topic, I just so desperately need that scripture to back up prayers to and from the saints! I’ve been going to my catholic church only ten weeks now, and I have been searching the bible for this scripture but I can’t find it any where! Someone please help! I have my rosary, I pray it daily and nightly, I have also asked on the communion of saints to help me in guidance during my conversion… I KNOW THAT THEY ARE WITH ME. But I just can’t prove that to anyone who questions me about it, because I don’t know the scripture that backs it up!

the Bible says we are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses…
here’s some info:
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

remember, we are not sola scriptura…

 

[happilycatholic]

Heh–I feel a little out of place because I’m trying to duck the side arguments and answer the original poster’s question:

There are a variety of reasons for the attitude that “Catholics don’t know Jesus,” but one biggie is the number of individual Catholics who make this charge easy to believe, and indeed, may not have absorbed a coherent understanding of plain old Nicene Christian doctrine.

I am continually grateful for the intelligent, learned Catholics on this list who have helped illuminate me about their doctrines and who have overcome many (not yet all) of my objections to various Catholic teachings. (Indeed, most of what I know about those teachings I owe to you.) But will my Catholic brothers forgive my bluntness? If the Internet had never been invented, my only source for judgment would be the numerous Catholics I’d met in real life; and bar none, they’d lead me to agree with the OP’s example.

Maybe I’ve just been unlucky. Maybe the impressions I’ve received are entirely my fault and a symptom of my ignorance or ill will. Or maybe over the last few generations, significant chunks of the Catholic rank & file have become scandalous to their faith through a combination of a) weak catechesis, b) desire not to resemble those scary evangelicals by advertising their faith, and c) serious Catholics who dismiss a & b as minor issues if a Protestant should point them out.

Now, I know many Protestants who are just as bad. HOWEVER, I’ve encountered numerous in-the-flesh counterexamples who greatly outnumber the bad eggs, and Protestants–by definition–have less defense against that sort of thing, lacking a well-defined hierarchy with magisterial teaching authority. (What good is having those if one doesn’t appear to use them?)

Hello Le Cracquere:

Glad you’re here with us.

I guess my first thought would be, have you been to a catholic Church and observed the way catholics are supposed to behave?

We all know that we, as Christians, are on our best behavior in Church and this is where we will most likely be the best example for our faith. Also, this is where you would get the actual Teaching of the Church, you know…in Church.

When I was discerning the catholic faith I ran into so many angry catholics (folks whom for whatever reason, were mad at the Church) that I couldn’t really tell what the heck ws going on.

Then I went to Church and the Truth was revealed to me. I wanted to learn more so I entered Inquiry (the 1st phase of Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) or catechism as the older folks call it.

The couple things that stuck out about your post:

Envangelism: We don’t “evangelize” the way other faiths do that. You won’t see billboards with our priest’s on them or commercials saying, “Come to Church” or promising salvation in the “church”. Catholics don’t look at faith in that way. Faith is a very personal journey and a very deep, deep sacrifice and commitment. We don’t claim to be able to “save” you by joining Church or reading the Bible or anything like that. Not that it’s bad, we just don’t believe in that way of revealing God’s Word.

While I think we should be better at evangelizing, I think we do a fairly good job with our many, many charities and ministries. These are opportunities for people to witness us doing God’s Will and not just talking about doing God’s Will.

Some folks look down upon the chastity of priests. I look at this as a form of evangelism. Obedience to the Church (which by the way is synonymous to Christ’s Ministry) and service to it’s people and communities is our best endeavor to evangelize.

The other thing you mentioned is scandal. The best case of scandal was Christ’s own Apostles the night of His apprehension. Christ did not leave His Church to Saints, they were believers and followers just like you and I. They only became Saints after their deaths. They were ordinary men serving Christ and therefor serving His people. Christ tried to make sure we know this, didn’t he? He called upon men who had families and jobs and were going about their lives just like you and me.

While there will always be scandal and sin among believers, the Church will never succumb to evil. No matter what the Popes where doing in their personal lives, they were commissioned to reveal the Truth to the people and they did just that. They were not always good examples of Christians, but neither was Judas or Peter. It just reminds us that while they hold a position in God’s Church, they are still human and errant.

Those outside the Church are the only ones who require the Church to live up to standards outside that of Christ’s commission to Peter.

Besides, where will you find such a church that does not have scandal and has sin-less pastors and ministers of faith?

These are the type of things that are better explained in Inquiry. I would encourage you to try going. There is never an obligation. If nothing else, you will learn some cool stuff about catholicism to talk to us about here.

God Bless,

HC

 

[4EverHis]

I think the reason I started this thread, is because I just find it hurtful when so many people think that we don’t “truly know” Jesus (or don’t know Him as well as Protestants), though we receive Him - Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - into ourselves every Sunday. I know there are some Catholics who don’t know the faith or are lukewarm, but there are Protestants like that too. The reason these Catholics are more ‘visible’ is because we have to go to church on Sundays, whereas the Protestants who don’t really believe, simply stop going. But there are also many Catholics who DO believe, and do care, and it’s upsetting when **other Christians **look down on us like we know God less than they do. I think that’s pretty judgemental… I have many disagreements with Protestantism and its doctrines, but I wouldn’t say that they don’t know or love God, yet I hear comments like that about Catholics. I don’t know why. I think we shouldn’t judge by appearances. In general, Catholics tend to not be so ‘outwardly expressive’ about their faith…we’re quieter, just like our liturgy but that doesn’t mean we care about God any less.

Just wanted to say this…I’m sorry for this long rant

I’m really trying not to be angry at Protestants, I have many Protestant friends, and I’m trying to remember that sometimes people just have the wrong information about Catholicism, through no fault of their own…

but it bothers me too that sometimes I’m tempted to sin (anger and judgement) by all these thoughts because I get so upset.

after all this, whenever I talk to Protestants and am asked what church I go to, and I say I’m Catholic, I’m half wondering if they’re thinking “oh she’s in THAT dead religion…she doesn’t truly know God…she’s just going through the motions… she’s enslaved by all that legalism and rules and rituals…she thinks God is angry and distant and doesn’t know His love” ETC… just because I’ve heard these comments so many times

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can someone PLEASE explain this to me?



I just read a “testimony” by someone who used to be really involved in the Catholic Church but didn’t “truly know Jesus” until he became Protestant.

I tend to hear this a lot from people…when they’re speaking either about themselves, or others.

In my experience though, I got to know God better and in a closer way once I became Catholic! Can we be any closer to Him than the Eucharist? that’s receiving Jesus physically into ourselves!

if there are Catholics who aren’t really close to God… that’s perhaps cause they weren’t properly catechized, or whatever, but it’s not because Catholicism somehow prevents people from “having a relationship with Jesus”. It doesn’t prevent…quite the contrary! those who HAVE followed the Church teachings well, became Saints…and if you read anything they wrote, it’s so obvious they were very close to God.

I just don’t understand why people say things like this and it’s really bothering me… sorry about the rant

I understand if some people disagree with Catholic doctrine and think the Church is wrong on points. But they seem to go even further, and say that Catholics don’t “really know” God. How come this is not said about other Protestant denominations, even though they have different doctrines too? how come Catholics don’t say things like that about other Christians? even if we think their doctrines are heretical, we still admit they can be saved and know God and they’re still Christians… why all this anti-Catholicism?

I have some Protestants friends who go on missions to evangelize Catholics…and bring them into “Bible believing” churches as they’re called… I hear so much about how Catholics “dont know God”, and to be honest, it’s just gotten to the point that it’s both puzzling and hurtful.

thanks for reading my rant…lol

There are many Protestants who do not know Jesus.

 

[Tanner9188]

continued from previous post

…in fact to believe that water baptism can remove any sin; is to deny the cross sufficiency to fully impute Christ’s righteousness to the believer. Denying, even part, of the work on the cross in any manner is denying the sufficiency of Jesus.

churchmilitant:

then I guess that your hero ST. Paul was not saved since that is clearly what he was told at his conversion as I have cited above from acts 22:16.

On Water Baptism; It cannot cleanse even the smallest sin.
Acts 3:19 – (Peter speaking)
"And on the basis of faith in His name, {it is} the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which {comes} through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

In relation to Act 2:38 – (Peter speaking)
Peter {said} to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In correct Greek grammatical form; it renders “Repent, for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit, then each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”

If this were rendered any differently, then Scripture would really contradict itself as you will see. Do not take my word; you must confirm these things for yourself or you will be tossed around by every wind of doctrine.

Matthew 3:11 – (cf Luke 3:16) "As for me, I baptize you with 1) water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; **He will baptize you with the 2) Holy Spirit and 3) fire.
**ChurchMilitant - this is after the ascension and on the day of Pentecost-CHRISTIAN

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were **baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
**Spirit Baptism

Matthew 3:11 (cf Luke 3:16) acknowledges 3 types of baptisms and we know Jesus baptism was a one of a kind, 4th type of baptism, and “fire” relates to judgment; although it seems most people are unaware of these facts from God for various reasons.

Acts 10 –
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?"

Can you get more definitive as this? Well maybe, moving along in Acts and stopping for a visit in chapter 15.

Acts 15 -
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And ***I remembered the word of the Lord, ***how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore; if ***God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, ***

When does one actually receive the Holy Spirit and water baptized according to Scripture? Listening, believing the message, then RECEIVING the Holy Spirit, THEN baptized in water. Get the picture; Scripture will always verify itself; learn to fish for yourselves and quit eating the fish of religion, before you have no more fishing rights.
Revert back to Matthew 3:11 above and read again.

John 1
"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 1 - (Jesus speaking)
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” {He said,} ***“you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God…God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Were not done yet! Praise you Lord; I love you and the Truth.

Notice how Paul chastises the Corinthians concerning water baptism; then separates from it, then goes into the promise of the message. This is no mistake on Paul’s part.

1 Corinthians 1 -
11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that **each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? **Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

WARNING - WARNING - WARNING - WARNING (SEE Below)
Folks you better pay attention; it is all of Grace, through faith, In Christ; not of yourselves, not of your works, not of your religious affiliation, but all of God working in and through the child of God.

Can water baptism save according to what God has no? You must weigh the clear and overwhelming evidence and reject what is false and hold fast to what you now know to be true.

Anyway; I hope that you get from this is one thing; search yourself and see if it is true.

God bless you and I will pray that God will lead you to see His wisdom, His care, HIs justice and His mercies.

 

[4EverHis]

There are many Protestants who do not know Jesus.

I honestly have no idea… I can’t tell who knows Jesus and who doesn’t, only He knows this but if that’s true, well yes, there are probably some Catholics and some Protestants who need to know Him in a fuller way. But what bothers me is when some people say that Catholics CAN’T know Jesus, because they’re Catholic.

 

[4EverHis]

continued from previous post

On Water Baptism; It cannot cleanse even the smallest sin.

Tanner, so let me ask you a question… do you think you personally understand Scripture better than the entire early Church… ? St Justin Martyr said in **150 AD **that Baptism cleanses sin and makes us born again.

Jesus said, we are born again through water AND the Spirit… not only the Spirit. That means water’s a part of it. When we’re water baptized…the Holy Spirit cleanses us from sin…it’s His work… and the water is necessary for the Sacrament to take place.

that’s what Jesus taught and what the Apostles taught and what the entire early Church believed, all the way up until the modern Protestants.

was the Church in error for 1500 years?

 

[4EverHis]

St Justin Martyr on Baptism

Baptism as Illumination

This excerpt from St. Justin Martyr’s First Apology (chapter 61) on baptism or “illumination” is used in the Office of Readings of the Roman Catholic Church on Wednesday of the Third week of Easter with the accompanying biblical reading of Revelation 9:1-12. St. Justin Martyr’s First Apology was written around 155AD in Rome and reflects the liturgical practices of not only the Church in that city, but most probably the practice of the Church in Ephesus and Palestine as well, where he had lived and worshipped prior to his move to Rome. * It demonstrates that the early Church understood Jesus’ words to Nicodemus in John 3 as referring to the sacrament of baptism.*

"Through Christ we received new life and we consecrated ourselves to God. I will explain the way in which we did this. Those who believe what we teach is true and who give assurance of their ability to live according to that teaching are taught to ask God’s forgiveness for their sins by prayer and fasting and we pray and fast with them. We then lead them to a place where there is water and they are reborn in the same way as we were reborn; that is to say, they are washed in the water in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the whole universe, of our Savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit. This is done because Christ said: Unless you are born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and it is impossible for anyone, having once been born, to re-enter his mother’s womb.

An explanation of how repentant sinners are to be freed from their sins is given through the prophet Isaiah in the words: Wash yourselves and be clean. Remove the evil from your souls; learn to do what is right. Be just to the orphan, vindicate the widow. Come, let us reason together, says the Lord. If your sins are like scarlet, I will make them white as wool; if they are like crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you do not heed me, you shall be devoured by the sword. The mouth of the Lord has spoken.

The apostles taught us the reason for this ceremony of ours. Our first birth took place without our knowledge or consent because our parents came together, and we grew up in the midst of wickedness. So if we were not to remain children of necessity and ignorance, we needed a new birth of which we ourselves would be conscious, and which would be the result of our own free choice. We needed, too, to have our sins forgiven. This is why the name of God, the Father and Lord of the whole universe, is pronounced in the water over anyone who chooses to be born again and who has repented of his sins. The person who leads the candidate for baptism to the font calls upon God by this name alone, for God so far surpasses our powers of description that no one can really give a name to him. Anyone who dares to say that he can must be hopelessly insane.

This baptism is called “illumination” because of the mental enlightenment that is experienced by those who learn these things. The person receiving this enlightenment is also baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything concerning Jesus."

 

[4EverHis]

here are Scripture verses and quotes from the early Church that show that Baptism is a Sacrament through which we are born again:

scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

" ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean,** by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190**).

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I honestly have no idea… I can’t tell who knows Jesus and who doesn’t, only He knows this but if that’s true, well yes, there are probably some Catholics and some Protestants who need to know Him in a fuller way. But what bothers me is when some people say that Catholics CAN’T know Jesus, because they’re Catholic.

Huh? And who were the first Christians? CATHOLICS! So don’t listen to them. I don’t know how Protestants are so arrogant especially when one hadn’t seen the light of day until just 500 years ago…really.

 

[happilycatholic]

I think the reason I started this thread, is because I just find it hurtful when so many people think that we don’t “truly know” Jesus (or don’t know Him as well as Protestants), though we receive Him - Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - into ourselves every Sunday. I know there are some Catholics who don’t know the faith or are lukewarm, but there are Protestants like that too. The reason these Catholics are more ‘visible’ is because we have to go to church on Sundays, whereas the Protestants who don’t really believe, simply stop going. But there are also many Catholics who DO believe, and do care, and it’s upsetting when **other Christians **look down on us like we know God less than they do. I think that’s pretty judgemental… I have many disagreements with Protestantism and its doctrines, but I wouldn’t say that they don’t know or love God, yet I hear comments like that about Catholics. I don’t know why. I think we shouldn’t judge by appearances. In general, Catholics tend to not be so ‘outwardly expressive’ about their faith…we’re quieter, just like our liturgy but that doesn’t mean we care about God any less.

Just wanted to say this…I’m sorry for this long rant

I’m really trying not to be angry at Protestants, I have many Protestant friends, and I’m trying to remember that sometimes people just have the wrong information about Catholicism, through no fault of their own…

but it bothers me too that sometimes I’m tempted to sin (anger and judgement) by all these thoughts because I get so upset.

after all this, whenever I talk to Protestants and am asked what church I go to, and I say I’m Catholic, I’m half wondering if they’re thinking “oh she’s in THAT dead religion…she doesn’t truly know God…she’s just going through the motions… she’s enslaved by all that legalism and rules and rituals…she thinks God is angry and distant and doesn’t know His love” ETC… just because I’ve heard these comments so many times

Awe 4ever, take solice in knowing that not everyone who’s anyone is sitting at their computers talking smack )) about catholics (or Protestants for that matter) It’s just us nerds.

Most Christians are loving, kind, and charitable Christ-like beings that love Christ and their Church, whatever faith they may be.

If you think they truly believe what you wrote in this post, invite them to go to Church with you. Honestly, I think my own Mom and Dad thought something to that effect but they attended my Baptism and guess what my Dad thought was the most beautiful?

The crucifix! I was scared to death he would cringe at the sight of Christ crucified, but he didn’t. I was so happy to see him so at peace with that. I don’t know why it meant so much. I guess because I’ve actually had some Protestants ask me how I can stand to look at Christ being crucified. I think my Dad knows something about Christ that he didn’t know before. I think that Christ revealed that ‘something’ to him when he looked at the cross.

That’s what knowing Christ is. It can happen in any place at any time. And no one else may even know, but the person getting the *knowing. *IMHO, Knowing Christ cannot be defined as one thing a person does or does not do or even the way they might do certain things. I think it is the way Christ communicates to us as individuals in terms maybe only we understand. It’s not necessarily for others to see, but for us to have and a way to be a part of Christ to ourselves.

Don’t fret. The fact that this and other things hurt so much just says that you do know Christ in your very soul. Pain is a sign you are alive.

You friend, are alive in Christ.

Rejoyce!

HC

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

Huh? And who were the first Christians? CATHOLICS! So don’t listen to them. I don’t know how Protestants are so arrogant especially when one hadn’t seen the light of day until just 500 years ago…really./QUOTE

Arrogant? You have a provincial governor/tax collector spirit about you in the above statement.

Why do you fear the words of man? Isn’t your God strong and mighty and quick to correct? Pray it up. If the thread causes you to trip, simply pray for youf enemies. You should know this but every now and then we need reminding. I know I do.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Hello Le Cracquere:

Glad you’re here with us.

I guess my first thought would be, have you been to a catholic Church and observed the way catholics are supposed to behave?

We all know that we, as Christians, are on our best behavior in Church and this is where we will most likely be the best example for our faith. Also, this is where you would get the actual Teaching of the Church, you know…in Church.

When I was discerning the catholic faith I ran into so many angry catholics (folks whom for whatever reason, were mad at the Church) that I couldn’t really tell what the heck ws going on.

Then I went to Church and the Truth was revealed to me. I wanted to learn more so I entered Inquiry (the 1st phase of Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) or catechism as the older folks call it.

Glad to hear from you as well; many thanks for the response.

Thanks to things I learned through sources like this forum, I have finally begun to attend Catholic churches. It’s been a pretty mixed bag, just as I’m sure a crawl through random Protestant churches would be. I’m just saying that if I were a pre-Internet denizen of flesh-and-blood land, I’d never have been interested in attending one, and though not inclined to shallow, blanket judgments, I’d have seen little to make me think the “Catholics don’t know Jesus” claim bore closer investigation.

Envangelism: We don’t “evangelize” the way other faiths do that. You won’t see billboards with our priest’s on them or commercials saying, “Come to Church” or promising salvation in the “church”. Catholics don’t look at faith in that way. Faith is a very personal journey and a very deep, deep sacrifice and commitment. We don’t claim to be able to “save” you by joining Church or reading the Bible or anything like that. Not that it’s bad, we just don’t believe in that way of revealing God’s Word.

While I think we should be better at evangelizing, I think we do a fairly good job with our many, many charities and ministries. These are opportunities for people to witness us doing God’s Will and not just talking about doing God’s Will.

I’m very grateful for the existence of Catholic charities & ministries, and I can’t say I’d be thanking you if you DID put up billboards! Evangelicalism with a big “E” can often be ham-fisted, and too focussed on the moment of conversion at the expense of what follows.

Still, though, there’s something to be said for reaching out to the lost (whatever one takes “the lost” to be). To an outsider looking in, a distaste for evangelism is easily mistaken for indifference to the outsider, or a refusal to meet him halfway. Just as an example: I wanted to ask a quick couple of questions of someone at the Catholic church, but it took me about a half-dozen Sundays of waiting in lines, hovering at doors, and outright pursuit before I could get someone’s attention. I was self-conscious enough just BEING there, let alone having to chase them around in their own place! Most people in my shoes would have finally given up, and eventually I couldn’t help feeling as if that was the idea. (Someone finally gave me the office number of a lady who thought I wanted to sign up for RCIA.)

And I’m hugely grateful for and admiring of Catholic charities and missions; still, those are entities that by their structure, again seem to place the burden of reaching out on the curious and needy.

The other thing you mentioned is scandal. The best case of scandal was Christ’s own Apostles the night of His apprehension. Christ did not leave His Church to Saints, they were believers and followers just like you and I. They only became Saints after their deaths. They were ordinary men serving Christ and therefor serving His people. Christ tried to make sure we know this, didn’t he? He called upon men who had families and jobs and were going about their lives just like you and me.

While there will always be scandal and sin among believers, the Church will never succumb to evil. No matter what the Popes where doing in their personal lives, they were commissioned to reveal the Truth to the people and they did just that. They were not always good examples of Christians, but neither was Judas or Peter. It just reminds us that while they hold a position in God’s Church, they are still human and errant.

Those outside the Church are the only ones who require the Church to live up to standards outside that of Christ’s commission to Peter.

Besides, where will you find such a church that does not have scandal and has sin-less pastors and ministers of faith?

Oh, nowhere–to put it mildly. Still, I wasn’t really talking about the priests, and I wasn’t really talking about sin and personal failings. I was referring more to questions of knowledge, I guess. I’ll try an analogy: to many of us Protestants, especially the Evangelical sort, being unclear on who & what exactly Jesus was, what He came to Earth to do, and what the significance of His death & resurrection is, is roughly tantamount to ignorance or denial of the sacraments in Catholic eyes. That’s not a great analogy, but I hope it serves to illustrate why some people might fall into the mistake the OP cites.

These are the type of things that are better explained in Inquiry. I would encourage you to try going. There is never an obligation. If nothing else, you will learn some cool stuff about catholicism to talk to us about here.

God Bless,

HC

And God bless you as well. If I can finally learn what to repeat and when one-tenth of the time I go there, I’ll consider it a victory!

 

[happilycatholic]

Glad to hear from you as well; many thanks for the response.

Thanks to things I learned through sources like this forum, I have finally begun to attend Catholic churches. It’s been a pretty mixed bag, just as I’m sure a crawl through random Protestant churches would be. I’m just saying that if I were a pre-Internet denizen of flesh-and-blood land, I’d never have been interested in attending one, and though not inclined to shallow, blanket judgments, I’d have seen little to make me think the “Catholics don’t know Jesus” claim bore closer investigation.

I’m very grateful for the existence of Catholic charities & ministries, and I can’t say I’d be thanking you if you DID put up billboards! Evangelicalism with a big “E” can often be ham-fisted, and too focussed on the moment of conversion at the expense of what follows.

Still, though, there’s something to be said for reaching out to the lost (whatever one takes “the lost” to be). To an outsider looking in, a distaste for evangelism is easily mistaken for indifference to the outsider, or a refusal to meet him halfway. Just as an example: I wanted to ask a quick couple of questions of someone at the Catholic church, but it took me about a half-dozen Sundays of waiting in lines, hovering at doors, and outright pursuit before I could get someone’s attention. I was self-conscious enough just BEING there, let alone having to chase them around in their own place! Most people in my shoes would have finally given up, and eventually I couldn’t help feeling as if that was the idea. (Someone finally gave me the office number of a lady who thought I wanted to sign up for RCIA.)

And I’m hugely grateful for and admiring of Catholic charities and missions; still, those are entities that by their structure, again seem to place the burden of reaching out on the curious and needy.

Oh, nowhere–to put it mildly. Still, I wasn’t really talking about the priests, and I wasn’t really talking about sin and personal failings. I was referring more to questions of knowledge, I guess. I’ll try an analogy: to many of us Protestants, especially the Evangelical sort, being unclear on who & what exactly Jesus was, what He came to Earth to do, and what the significance of His death & resurrection is, is roughly tantamount to ignorance or denial of the sacraments in Catholic eyes. That’s not a great analogy, but I hope it serves to illustrate why some people might fall into the mistake the OP cites.

And God bless you as well. If I can finally learn what to repeat and when one-tenth of the time I go there, I’ll consider it a victory!

Ha! I wish you all the best in your journey!

HC

 

[Tanner9188]

Hogwash again…I have supported the points I made with scripture many times, and you just don’t like it that a faithful Catholic knows the Word of God as well as you do. Get used to it…I am just one of millions more.

Our posts prove to the contrary, almost to a laughable degree, if it wasn’t so serious; but I am thankful to the Lord for the graces that He has given me in discerning His word. As I often repeat, do not take anyone’s word on it; check to see if it is true. It is what God teaches us to do in His Word and what He means by Ask, Seek and Knock A.S.K.

What it comes right down to Tanner, is that you don’t like it when a Catholic shows you to be in contradiction to the Word of God, as I have already done several times…and again tonight in my posts.

The higher you puff yourself, then the harder it will be to penetrate your heart; and if God has called you, then He will have to bring you real low to do His work in you and that can be very painful…just saying for your own good.

You argue against Catholic teachings and yet the preponderance of both scriptural and historical evidence proves you wrong and the Catholic Church correct… and easily refuted by the very passage of New Testament scripture that called me home to repentance. Luke 15.

This is getting to be a real pattern; if you say it is one way; then all of us need to look behind us for the Truth. Almost everything you have said, which is very little in the substance area pertaining to God’s word, is the polar opposite of Truth. I attempt to avoid say things like this; but when I find it necessary to correct those that twist my words routinely, provide little to no substance, and insult the Word of God; particularly the latter. The Bible calls this reproof and correction.

Nice…but I never denied that I had sinned, therefore your misapplication of scripture does not apply to me. I suppose now you will assert that you never sin?

ChurchMilitant:

Oops… You ignore the very clear statement that these are condemned for practicing iniquity. Since none of us faithful Catholics do that then there’s no problem.

{added by me in relation to Matthew 7:23 - "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ - the last I know of practicing is doing; you said you don’t #218}
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5637326&postcount=218

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 3:4 & 10
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness…10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother…"

Lord; please help this Militant of the church to step back and look at the Truth that has been laid before His eyes and wipe away all inequity; I beg you Father according to your will and your purpose.

 

[4EverHis]

Awe 4ever, take solice in knowing that not everyone who’s anyone is sitting at their computers talking smack )) about catholics (or Protestants for that matter) It’s just us nerds.

Most Christians are loving, kind, and charitable Christ-like beings that love Christ and their Church, whatever faith they may be.

If you think they truly believe what you wrote in this post, invite them to go to Church with you. Honestly, I think my own Mom and Dad thought something to that effect but they attended my Baptism and guess what my Dad thought was the most beautiful?

The crucifix! I was scared to death he would cringe at the sight of Christ crucified, but he didn’t. I was so happy to see him so at peace with that. I don’t know why it meant so much. I guess because I’ve actually had some Protestants ask me how I can stand to look at Christ being crucified. I think my Dad knows something about Christ that he didn’t know before. I think that Christ revealed that ‘something’ to him when he looked at the cross.

That’s what knowing Christ is. It can happen in any place at any time. And no one else may even know, but the person getting the *knowing. *IMHO, Knowing Christ cannot be defined as one thing a person does or does not do or even the way they might do certain things. I think it is the way Christ communicates to us as individuals in terms maybe only we understand. It’s not necessarily for others to see, but for us to have and a way to be a part of Christ to ourselves.

Don’t fret. The fact that this and other things hurt so much just says that you do know Christ in your very soul. Pain is a sign you are alive.

You friend, are alive in Christ.

Rejoyce!

HC

thank you for the kind words :hug1:

that’s wonderful that your Dad liked the crucifix! I know some Protestants are against it, but others think it’s a good reminder. I think it’s a good reminder too.

God bless!!

 

[estesbob]

It is what God teaches us to do in His Word and what He means by Ask, Seek and Knock A.S.K.

.

I did exactly that and got different answers than you did. How do we resolve that?

 

[Tanner9188]

**Unfortunately for you, that does not apply to me **because I do not base my reversion upon my own beliefs or professions alone but upon those of Christ’s own church.

This is getting to be habitual with you; you said, and I will be happy to bring the post into view (if it has not been mysteriously removed), that you were “assured” of your salvation. In fact; you stated in such a manner in response of how I say it; and everyone knows how I mean it, then I made you clarify it; which you did. Now you deny what you own Church teaches, which is a curse of damnation to those, like me, that claim they are assured of their salvation; then you claim it does not apply to you.

Nothing like having you cake and eating it two; God has a few words about that, but since everyone is already fully aware of this, there is no need to put it in your face, so to speak.

I’m going to have to leave this thread because the more you are exposed to the truth and deny it and the more you defend yourself by not practicing the truth, the bigger the hole you keep digging for yourself.

There has been more than enough Truth submitted concerning water baptism, the fallacy of the priesthood, vicar of Christ and all the other extra’s not found in Scripture in this thread. What you do with that Truth is up to each individual; for every person reaches a crossroad and must decides which path they will go.

CARM is an anti-Catholic pit of deception, so I removed the link. I know what they say…and that same attitude that they cop towards us Catholics and our most holy faith is precisely why I quit posting there.

Did I put that link there? I do not recall; I think Janet may have, but I could be wrong, but I generally do not refer to that site very often and if I do it would be in the context of the forum rules, which allows the posting of site, other than Catholic sites, if it relevant to the point and to the thread.

So I don’t know what you removed, but it is brings into question your personal integrity; that you would remove what you do not like, rather than letting another administrator give an unbiased opinion to the relevancy in light of the forum rules.

But it also makes one wonder, what else you remove on the basis of “I don’t like it”. Funny; I was thinking about this before I began posting today. Serious credibility issue IMO. Also, valid reason for not responding to a person with such a character flaw IMO.

I’ll continue to pray for you; as I do for all of you. I will review the rest of the posts up through today and respond as I can. Thanks everyone of you and God bless!

 

[Tanner9188]

ATTENTION EVERYONE: - I AM EXPOSING A LIAR AMONG YOU; AND ASK THAT YOU REBUKE HIM IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!

1 Corinthians 5:1-6

1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough?}

Do you see what Paul just commanded in the Name and power of the Lord Jesus; this is by far the severest chastisement that can be dealt and still be saved. God does do this on occasion; certainly more than we know.

There is much more in Scripture that shows the rebuking and chastisement of God’s children.

FYI- 1 Cor. 5:5 - The chastisement is the killing of the person’s body, “destruction of the flesh”, that is what Paul refers to and the end of verse 6 clearly shows the persons “spirit” is saved, which is a believer.

Militant:

Oh…so now you admit that there is a very scriptural basis for loss of salvation.

If you were a politician, they might call you on flip flopping, or waffling, on your position. C’mon Tanner…you either can or cannot lose your salvation…you can’t have it both ways and be scriptural.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5639995&postcount=243
Post#243

As you can see from my original post and from the Militants response; that he intentionally took what I said out of context, concerning 1 Corinthians; then even more disturbing, he then proceeds to say that I admit their is “very scriptural basis for loss of salvation”, which he knows is a dirty lie as you can all see for yourselves. Does he stop there? In the effort to impress upon you to make up for his weakness in defending against the Truth of God, he then proceeds to falsely accuse me of being like a politician and flip-flopping, which is another outright lie.

I’ve have caught him doing this on several occasions now and it has become habitual IMO; and I believe it is all your responsibility before God to rebuke him for his lies and deceptions. That is up to you; you either defend him, rebuke him, say nothing, or join him in his inequities.

I have never seen anyone do this to the degree this man has; then admitting in the previous post that he changed, by removing a link and who knows what else, a post on a thread to which he is participating.

It really grieves me to do this; but I have no choice and God is my witness to the truth of my heart.

Catholics here at CAF have buried you in scripture and context, (Case in point, my friends Roman Catholic, Randy Carson, Guanophore, and quite a few others. I have done it as well on several other threads and you ignored my posts.

They are as misinformed as you and lack the same substance as you do (they may actual produce more), but they are at least honest.

Romans 1:28-32
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

You wonder why people don’t think Catholics know Jesus?

May God help you all and me too! Amen.