Why do some Protestant groups believe the Pope to be the Anti-Christ?

[KathleenGee]

Yes, get your point as well…but still, any Catholic …well today many can read…but for a theologian, surely had to know great saints…and then, Hildegard of Bingen, who lived 200 years or so before Luther, was complaining to the local bishops and the surroundings of similar problems.

And likewise, there were various parishes with excellent lay groups living out their faith with full knowledge of the scandal of others in Luther’s time. I am still inclined to see him imbalanced. And when meeting with Calvin and Zwingli, in disagreement, he pounded the table and walked out from them…

And will add…there is this communion of the saints we experience at Holy Communion…it is like he was a Catholic theologian…but never Catholic in spirit.

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Yes, get your point as well…but still, any Catholic …well today many can read…but for a theologian, surely had to know great saints…and then, Hildegard of Bingen, who lived 200 years or so before Luther, was complaining to the local bishops and the surroundings of similar problems.

And likewise, there were various parishes with excellent lay groups living out their faith with full knowledge of the scandal of others in Luther’s time. I am still inclined to see him imbalanced. And when meeting with Calvin and Zwingli, in disagreement, he pounded the table and walked out from them…

And will add…there is this communion of the saints we experience at Holy Communion…it is like he was a Catholic theologian…but never Catholic in spirit.

Luther never met with Calvin.

 

[guanophore]

I see what you did there. Non Catholics aren’t allowed to have actual reasons under certain circumstances, only ignorance and a lack of understanding.

Non-Catholics have plenty of “actual reasons”. Often they are based on ignorance/lack of understanding. Catholics do too! Trust me, I was one of them for many years. I disagreed with all kinds of teachings of the CC, then when I began to investigate, I found out what I thought was taught was not, and what I thought did not have a good reason, actually did!

 

[guanophore]

Undoubtedly. But he was also a theologian in an era where the Leo and his predecessors going back to at least Sixtus IV were terribly corrupt and even depraved. There hadn’t been a “good” pope in far too many years before Luther came along. It’s no surprise he thought the papacy had lost its way, it had at the time.

I suspect, had I been there at the time, I would have been a Lutheran too.

I think most of Europe had fallen into despair, which is why the Reformation was so wildly rampant.

 

[guanophore]

Luther never met with Calvin.

Luther sent representatives to meet with Calvin. It was at Marlburg when he met with Zwingli that he pulled away the table cloth to reveal what he had had written before the meeting in chalk: “This is my body.” Luther pounded the table, they say. hoc est corpus meum. That is what the text says! “This is my body.” Not, “This symbolizes my body.”

Zwingli and Calvin thought Luther was too contaminated by Catholcism, and did not 'reform" quite far enough. The real presence was then, and still is now, a major dividing point.

 

[Wannano]

I suspect, had I been there at the time, I would have been a Lutheran too.

I think most of Europe had fallen into despair, which is why the Reformation was so wildly rampant.

Thank you for your honesty guanophore, considering this then, do you agree with those who claim that Protestants of any stripe are in danger of hell fire because they are “divisive” ?

 

[Wannano]

Thank you for your honesty guanophore, considering this then, do you agree with those who claim that Protestants of any stripe are in danger of hell fire because they are “divisive” ?

Sorry, refer to #605.

 

[BeautyFromAshes]

Thank you for your honesty guanophore, considering this then, do you agree with those who claim that Protestants of any stripe are in danger of hell fire because they are “divisive” ?

Since the person you are addressing is Catholic, I’m assuming you’re asking if he/she agrees with Catholics who claim this. Correct me if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants are destined for Hell and I’ve never met any Catholics who think this personally. Have you met some that have said this to you? They do not represent the thoughts of the Church.

 

[Padres1969]

I suspect, had I been there at the time, I would have been a Lutheran too.

I think most of Europe had fallen into despair, which is why the Reformation was so wildly rampant.

And from a Catholic perspective the Reformation wasn’t all bad. I mean it did lead to the Counter-Reformation which went a long way toward putting the Church and the papacy in particular back on a more righteous path and correcting some of the issues that had led to the Reformation in the first place.

 

[Wannano]

Since the person you are addressing is Catholic, I’m assuming you’re asking if he/she agrees with Catholics who claim this. Correct me if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants are destined for Hell and I’ve never met any Catholics who think this personally. Have you met some that have said this to you? They do not represent the thoughts of the Church.

Thank you for your kind response. I am new to this so bear with me, I was trying to refer to #605 with the inset from 579 on the thread “does it matter which denomination you belong to”.

 

[LongingSoul]

I was taught this when I was a fundamental Baptist.
Thanks!

You were taught it as a fundamental Baptist? Why do you ask us then? I’d be interested to know the fundamentalist Baptist explanation. Would you be willing to share?

 

[Wannano]

[No message]

 

[Peter_J]

Since the person you are addressing is Catholic, I’m assuming you’re asking if he/she agrees with Catholics who claim this. Correct me if I’m wrong. The Catholic Church does not teach that Protestants are destined for Hell and I’ve never met any Catholics who think this personally. Have you met some that have said this to you? They do not represent the thoughts of the Church.

Thank you for your kind response. I am new to this so bear with me, I was trying to refer to #605 with the inset from 579 on the thread “does it matter which denomination you belong to”.

Thank you, BeautyFromAshes. I think there may be an epidemic of Protestants hearing/reading a Catholic say something-or-other and taking it as proof that it’s “the Catholic position”.

Wannano, you asked “do you agree with those who claim that Protestants of any stripe are in danger of hell fire because they are “divisive” ?” My answer is that Christians of all stripes are in *danger *of hell fire for many reasons.

Edit: And if you think that Catholics cannot be “divisive” … well, spend a little more time on internet discussion forums.

 

[guanophore]

You were taught it as a fundamental Baptist? Why do you ask us then? I’d be interested to know the fundamentalist Baptist explanation. Would you be willing to share?

It comes from the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

 

[chimo]

I was taught this when I was a fundamental Baptist.
Thanks!

Even some of the Eastern Orthodox think this way about the Pope. I have read some writings from the Eastern Orthodox that would lean toward the same as the Baptists. I think the Papacy has changed since the medieval days when the Papacy was not that admired. The Papacy needed time to evolve to what it is today. That means it needed to grow and from that growth plenty of mistakes for it to finally achieved its matured status. The mistakes however from its past tend to cloud the minds of the present Christians who see the Papacy in a bad light. I would never see the Papacy today in the same light as from its past. The Popes and the Papacy have now grown toward a matured status in a way that reflects the glory of what God needs. I think these many Protestants and yes even the many Orthodox need to forget about the past and let it go and allow the gift of this Papacy to best serve the interests of the Church.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Because they misunderstand what Catholics truly believe. You can explain to some groups that we do not worship statues and Mary and you will simply get "Yes you do! You are going to hell’ They think we think the pope cannot never make a mistake and we somehow worship him. They do not understand that he sits in The seat of St Peter who Christ gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven to. They think that the God given authority that The Pope has somehow takes away from God. He is the visible leader, here on earth, of The Catholic Church. He is a easy target. We acknowledge that CHRIST is the leader of The Church. But chose men to “feed his sheep”

As for accusations about having to be a Roman Catholic to be saved… then why would the Eastern Catholics be in communion with The Roman Catholic Church? There is no Salvation outside The Church… and Christ IS The Church. Remember when Jesus told Saul, before he became Paul “Why do you persecute me?” Saul (Paul) never even met Jesus. He was persecuting Gods Church. And I am sure some would then accuse me of worshiping The Catholic Church or something by that statement. There is no Salvation outside of Christ. The Catechism of The Catholic Church teaches that God can save whomever he wants. He does not send good people, who through no fault of their own, never entered his Church. The phrase “No Salvation outside The Church” is often misunderstood by a lot of protestant groups. Some Catholics do not even seem to like the official Church teaching that protestants and even non-Christians can be saved if God wants, but it is what The Catholic Church officially teaches. I forget the other two accusations on this thread. Perhaps I will go back and re-read them later.

So, it comes down to they are misinformed. The Anti-Christ will deny Christ. Not tell people to follow Christ’s Example. When did a pope ever say “Be like me”? Never. He says “Be like Christ” I heard all kinds of vile things about The Pope and The Catholic Church when I was a protestant. They have to do some real mental gymnastics to come out with a lot of the theories on why they believe The pope is the anti christ. And every pope has been called the anti christ since the protestant reformation. So, which pope is it? Or are they just playing a guessing game? Or are they somehow all the anti christ? Their accusations are weak and easily refutable. I have even seen protestant groups refute claims that The pope is The anti christ. It is only the far out sects that teach that. Whether protestant groups like it or not, we do not believe that their ministers hold any spiritual authority at all because they are not validly ordained. The Bible does not say anything about going to a bible college and becoming a legitimate minister of God. It says the apostles ordained leader’s and even spoke of people going out and preaching without a mandate from The apostles (Gods real pastors) and by our point of view, that is exactly what protestant pastors are doing. But we do not go around calling them Anti Christs. We do not even call Martin Luther a anti Christ. The anti Christ will deny Christ. And the former just do not meet the criteria because, though we believe misinformed, they do not deny Christ.

 

[Wannano]

I have been enjoying CAF for some time now and finally got the nerve to register. I have many wonderful friends and neighbour’s who are Catholic and I have been in Catholic services many times. I guess I just want to know…hence Wannano.

I am sure I am right in thinking that Jesus is the Head of the Catholic Church with the Pope under Him or am I wrong?

 

[JustaServant]

It comes from the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

IFBs do not, and have never, gotten their ideas about the Papacy from the 1689 Confession because they are anti-Creed and anti-Calvinist. The Confession is a Calvinist document. IFBs get their ‘Doctrinal Statements’ from each other and have their roots in the Statements from the Fundamentalist conferences in the early 20th century.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I have been enjoying CAF for some time now and finally got the nerve to register. I have many wonderful friends and neighbour’s who are Catholic and I have been in Catholic services many times. I guess I just want to know…hence Wannano.

I am sure I am right in thinking that Jesus is the Head of the Catholic Church with the Pope under Him or am I wrong?

Absolutely correct and this is stated in The Catechism of The Catholic Church. Protestants trust their church pastors to give them proper interpretation of scripture, right? Well, we trust The Pope to do the same for us and to inform us on moral issues and encourage piety to Christ, to just name a few things he does in his office.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Luther and the Lutheran Confessions identified the Roman Catholic Papacy as the Antichrist for three main reasons: First, the Papacy claimed to speak with an authority—even infallibility—that was equal to or surpassing the Word of God itself. By doing so, it put itself in a position of being ‘anti’ or ‘in place of’ Christ. Second, the Papacy claimed that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, making membership in a human organization a condition for salvation; finally, in emphasizing that faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, the Papacy undermined the very heart and center of the biblical teaching that salvation is by God’s grace alone and comes to individuals through faith in Christ alone. In holding to each of these teachings, the Roman Catholic Papacy placed itself in clear opposition to the foundation of the Christian faith, and therefore in opposition to Christ himself.

I already touched on one of those accusations on my previous post…

The Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith working in love. Christ himself said “Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter Heaven but he who does the will of my Father” and St James also says “Faith without works is dead” Luther on the other hand said that he could sin 1000 times a day and his salvation will not be affected. We do not call him a anti Christ though. Now there are thousands of protestant denominations that do not even teach that you need to be Baptized to be saved even though Christ said “Repent and be Baptized” now all you need to do is “Believe in Jesus” Citing “John 3:16” Does scripture contradict itself? No. If in one part it says “Do this and you will be saved” and in another part it says “Do THIS and you will be saved” well… you better do BOTH. Martin Luther was a troubled, scrupulous man. I cannot even be mad at him because I suffer from scrupulosity too and I know what hell it can be in your mind. That is why many, including me, believe he invented the doctrine of “Faith alone” and “sola scriptura” as security blankets from his scrupulosity. And if he could interpret scripture the way he wanted, he could dismiss what he did not like. Yet, we still do not accuse him of being a anti Christ. Just in error about what he taught and one of the father of the thousands of different protestant denominations that all claim to be “Biblical” yet interpret scripture different.