Why do some Protestants slander us?

[rr1213]

I’ve told myself that a Protestant service is not actually a “Worship Service” as they want to call it. The reason why I say that is because there is no SACRIFICE during their service. There are just scripture readings, a sermon and some songs, oh and the offering of their money. That’s it. No Eucharist, no Sacrifice…

Protestants call it a “worship service” because they think that praying alone is worshipping. There in lies their reasoning behind our so called “worshipping” of Mary. That is how I understand it. I know some denominations say that have a “eucharist” but it really isn’t so there is no sacrifice going on there. Protestants don’t even believe in the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass because they think we are re-Sacrificing Jesus all over again and we’re not.

I don’t know where Catholics have gotten the notion that Protestants do not participate in the worship of God. I’ve read this misconception over and over again on these forums. Worship is a state of mind and, more importantly, of spirit. It is loving the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and soul and might and expressing that love to Him. It is acknowledging him as the Sovereign Lord of the Universe and Savior of Mankind.

Know that there is more than one way to worship God. For Catholics, it appears that the Mass is the primary, although not only, way that Catholics worship. Know also that Protestants worship God in the Eucharist as well, even though you insist on telling us that our Eucharist is fake. We also worship God through prayer and praise and, in an especially Protestant manner, in the singing of hymns that raise our spirits and help us to focus on our Lord. By no means do we think “praying alone” is the only act of worship.

 

[kellie]

But I could also say that any Protestant “host” is NOT the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ. Why? Because of the very reason that you stated in your post. The only ones that have the power by the Holy Spirit to change the bread & wine into the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ are validly ordained Catholic Priests. Sorry to break the news to you about that but it is a FACT.

So if any Protestants believe in the Real Presence you are more than welcome to come join the Catholic Church so that you too can receive Jesus Christ in Holy Communion.

Can someone please explain to me how we know for sure that the Protestant celebration of eucharist does not become the body and blood of Christ?
Is it the mere fact they aren’t considered validly ordained priests by the Catholic Church?
Is there a rule that only the Catholic Church can say who is validly ordained? How do we know the bread and wine at a Protestant Church isn’t the Real Prescence, as Jesus wants it to be, and He just hopes that we all come together one day as one Church to celebrate it?

 

[Mannyfit75]

You did not direct that question to me but to someone else.
I shall answer.
My pastor “sits” on a tradition of church leaders stretching to Wesley and from Wesley back to Augustine and the leaders of the Old British Church as well as the Roman mission to the Saxons.
Ultimately to the apostles and Christ himself.
Nuff Said.
WP

and I thought you Protestants don’t believe in tradition… We Catholics and Orthodox trace our lineage by the Apostles… we have apostolic succession…

 

[callador]

Hello,

I am new to the forums, but I thought I might add some more information to the post. I am a Catholic convert. I used to be a Lutheran (Wisconsin Synod).

I too wondered about the validity of transubstantiation, and looked to John 6 for better clarification. I still use the NIV, although I have ordered a Catholic bible. John 6:52 - Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

As a neutral observer, looking at the context of this passage, it seemed to me that he could not simply be teaching consubstantiation. The “disciples” that fell away, looked at Jesus’ statement as outright cannibalism. If Jesus would have said, take and eat, this is my body… but really it isn’t. My spirit is in the bread during our meeting, but afterwards it is still bread. I do not think there would have been such a great fallout. These people were shocked by Jesus’ statement and wanted to have nothing to do with him.

I know there are also some Protestant churches (not Lutheranism) that teach a symbolic communion. So I guess Jesus would say, Take and eat, this is my body… but really it isn’t. In no way is this my body, I am not sure why I am saying this.

I did respect consubstantiation outside of the John 6 context. All of the Last Supper stories could go along with the logic of this form of transformation. Lutherans would say that the bread really is Jesus, but it is bread at the same time. It seems to me the John 6 at least creates the shadow of doubt.

I personally then decided to see what the early church thought. I figured that I might be placing a modern paradigm on the text, even though I was looking at the Koine Greek. It seemed logical to see what the “Apostolic Fathers” (those that lived during the times of the Apostles, had to say about the subject. I read St. Clement and St. Ignatius of Antioch. St. Ignatius of Antioch is very clear on the church teaching. He even calls it the Eucharist.

Another interesting thing I found in my study of St. Ignatius was the clear idea of Apostolic Authority. I can provide quotes later, but I am practically falling asleep right now! He says that the churches should stay in union with the Bishop and his Presbyteries. Apparently there was plenty of dissention in the early church, and there were other “prophets” that claimed to know the truth. He believed that the Bishops continued the apostolic line, and that the members of the churches (Philadelphia, Ephesus, etc), could only remain faithful by adhering to the doctrine of the true church.

I only mention this, because of the question concerning Wesley. While I don’t know much about him, I can at least explain the Catholic position concerning Luther. I am sure it is similar.

Luther was an Augustinian Monk (Priest). He would have had the ability to transubstantiate according to Catholic belief. So if Luther said a Mass (not sure he would), he could still illicitly offer the sacrament (similar to the SSPX). Now, since Luther was not a Bishop, the apostolic succession died with him. Every “priest” (now pastor) he created would not have that ability. He did not believe in the idea of Holy Orders, so I guess it was not an issue.

Again, these are just some first time observations. It is late, and my screen is blurring. Sorry for any horrific typos

 

[AlegreFe]

I don’t know where Catholics have gotten the notion that Protestants do not participate in the worship of God. I’ve read this misconception over and over again on these forums. Worship is a state of mind and, more importantly, of spirit. It is loving the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and soul and might and expressing that love to Him. It is acknowledging him as the Sovereign Lord of the Universe and Savior of Mankind.

“Worship is a state of mind**??**”
To me worship is giving all Glory & Honor & Thanks to God along
with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We thank God for our
Salvation. But we are to work out our salvation with fear and
trembling. How can you say that we give all Glory & Honor to
Mary when we clearly do not do that. I thank Mary for her “YES”
otherwise we would not have Jesus. But she did not create the
universe and she certainly did not create me, God did. So how
can you say that we Catholics WORSHIP Mary.
Please stop saying that we worship Mary! We don’t!

rr1213:

We also worship God through prayer and praise and, in an especially Protestant manner, in the singing of hymns that raise our spirits and help us to focus on our Lord. By no means do we think “praying alone” is the only act of worship.

If “praying alone” is NOT the only act of worship then why do you insist that we “worship” Mary? Most Protestants say that we worship Mary because we pray to her. So that tells me that for Prostestants, worship and prayer are one in the same.

 

[AlegreFe]

Hello,

I am new to the forums, but I thought I might add some more information to the post. I am a Catholic convert. I used to be a Lutheran (Wisconsin Synod).

I too wondered about the validity of transubstantiation, and looked to John 6 for better clarification. I still use the NIV, although I have ordered a Catholic bible. John 6:52 - Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

As a neutral observer, looking at the context of this passage, it seemed to me that he could not simply be teaching consubstantiation. The “disciples” that fell away, looked at Jesus’ statement as outright cannibalism. If Jesus would have said, take and eat, this is my body… but really it isn’t. My spirit is in the bread during our meeting, but afterwards it is still bread. I do not think there would have been such a great fallout. These people were shocked by Jesus’ statement and wanted to have nothing to do with him.

Welcome callador!

Wow you have a good understanding about this. Tell me you’re not a recent convert.

This is what I tried telling my Protestant brother and he calls me a cannable. :whacky: I told him that he sounds just like the Jews that walked away from Jesus in the Gospel of John.

 

[rr1213]

“Worship is a state of mind**??**”
To me worship is giving all Glory & Honor & Thanks to God along
with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We thank God for our
Salvation. But we are to work out our salvation with fear and
trembling. How can you say that we give all Glory & Honor to
Mary when we clearly do not do that. I thank Mary for her “YES”
otherwise we would not have Jesus. But she did not create the
universe and she certainly did not create me, God did. So how
can you say that we Catholics WORSHIP Mary.Please stop saying that we worship Mary! We don’t!

Worship most certainly includes giving all Glory & Honor & Thanks to God for the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Please re-read my post, I did not say that the Catholic Church worships Mary. I was responding to the posts which asserted that “prayer” was the sole means by which Protestants worship God…which it most certainly is not.

 

[Syele]

because there is no SACRIFICE during their service.

Prayer is one of many ways to worship. Singing Praises is one of many ways to worship. Humbling yourself to learn more about the Almighty God is a form of Worship. Sacrifice is one of many ways to worship. Adoration is a way to worship. Sacrificing your time and money to the service of God is a form of worship. To say worship is not worship if it is not the Sacrifice of Jesus alone is to make a broad term too narrow.

Rock - Error

www.xenos.org

'aboda (Hebrew; also - abad or asab) and latreia (Greek; also - latreuo) are frequently translated as worship. Although, these are not the only words translated worship and even these words are not always translated, ‘worship’. When translated as worship in the OT these words typically mean service associated with the work done in the temple.
…
Paul uses the related Greek word leitourgia (i.e. translated service) to refer to a monetary gift collected for the Jerusalem Christians and for the assistance he received from others*7* and the term leitourgos (i.e. translated serves or servant) is used of Christ, angels, rulers, Epaphroditus’s delivery of the Philippian gift, and of ministry to the Gentiles. Thus, the term latreia and its cognates are directly associated with both service & sacrifice when directed toward God. It might have been better if the translators had chosen the words ‘serve’, ‘service’ and ‘minister’ instead of worship.
Other terms are translated as worship including the Greek word proskyneo and its Hebrew equivalent shachac. Both of these terms refer to a posture of submission and thus an acknowledgment of God’s sovereignty. Obeisance requires an attitude of reverential fear. This is evident in the behaviors of bending the knee (i.e. gonu or gonupeteo) and bowing down (histahawa or shachac {Heb.} or proskyneo {Gk. to kiss forward}) which are associated with worship.
…
An important term associated with worship is homologia. Worshippers frequently spend some or all of their time professing faith, praising God, thanking God and proclaiming truths about God.
…
Another term often associated with worship is thusia meaning sacrifice. The reason this term should be connected to worship is that such references are allusions to the thank- offerings in the OT which were an important daily ritual of temple worship.Interestingly, in the cases where this term is used in the epistles it is usually in reference to self-sacrifice in the service of others.
…

Worship is the response of grateful and humble people to the living God where submission, sacrificial service, praise, profession, testimony and gratitude are freely expressed in innumerable ways.

 

[AlegreFe]

Worship most certainly includes giving all Glory & Honor & Thanks to God for the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Please re-read my post, I did not say that the Catholic Church worships Mary. I was responding to the posts which asserted that “prayer” was the sole means by which Protestants worship God…which it most certainly is not.

I did not say “for” the sacrifice, I said AND the Sacrifice. We call the Mass, HOLY SACRIFICE of the MASS because we have the Sacrifice and we do as Jesus Christ commanded us to do in memory of Him. We also include ourselves in that sacrifice. We have to give our lives for Jesus Christ.

Everytime we go to Mass which is actually Heaven on earth we have to come out of there, with a changed soul; 1, because we offered our lives as our sacrifice to God and 2, We received Jesus Christ’s Body & Blood. When we eat His Body & drink His Blood we are transformed into Him. I would not have life if I did not eat & drink His Body & Blood. Jesus said so in the Gospel, and Jesus does not lie.

When I said “Please stop saying that we worship Mary! We don’t” that wasn’t necessarily addressed to you. There are many Protestants that read that post and they think we worship Mary. And oh come on, you don’t think we worship Mary? MOST Protestants, if not all, think we worship Mary. And if you don’t think that now, I’m sure you did at one point or another.

 

[rr1213]

When I said “Please stop saying that we worship Mary! We don’t” that wasn’t necessarily addressed to you. There are many Protestants that read that post and they think we worship Mary. And oh come on, you don’t think we worship Mary? MOST Protestants, if not all, think we worship Mary. And if you don’t think that now, I’m sure you did at one point or another.

Catholics venerate and adore Mary. They pray to her. They praise her. They ask for her intercession and assistance. They put statues of her in their Churches and homes. Catholics describe Mary as the most perfect creation of God. Although Jesus is the King of Heaven, Catholics proclaim Mary as Heaven’s Queen. They claim her as their mother. They declare that she is without sin.

Catholics also affirm that they do not worship Mary. I’ve read that over and over again in these forums. So, if that’s what you say, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

As a Catholic, I obviously think Protestants are in error. As a former Protestant, however, I’m often amazed at some statments I’ve heard Catholics make about Protestants, statements that are eggregiously ignorant of what various Protestant groups actually believe (I say that with the caveat that the very numerous divisions among Protestants make it difficult to actually determine what they believe as a whole). What bothers me MORE, I must say, is something else: the attitude on the parts of some Catholics that is dismissive of Protestants on the grounds of “well, what do you expect?” or " Who cares? WE hold the fullness of truth!" I agree, the Catholic Church DOES hold the fullness of Truth. I think it would be well for us to remember that all we hold, both corporately and individually, is entirely a gift of God’s Grace and that we have nothing about which we can boast or strut or use to look down our nose at others.

Yes, Protestants may, at worst, “slander” Protestants. We should not return slander for slander. Also, we should try not to talk past each other.

Amen brother!

 

[lak611]

Amen brother!

:clapping: Yes, the slander happens both ways, and no it is never right! All of us, Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox, need to take the true Christian stance and pray for those who persecute us.

 

[AlegreFe]

Catholics venerate and adore Mary. They pray to her. They praise her. They ask for her intercession and assistance. They put statues of her in their Churches and homes. Catholics describe Mary as the most perfect creation of God. Although Jesus is the King of Heaven, Catholics proclaim Mary as Heaven’s Queen. They claim her as their mother. They declare that she is without sin.

You got it right except for one thing… we do not adore Mary. ADORATION is ONLY for God present to us here in every Tabernacle in the Catholic Churches all over the world. Jesus Christ is exposed in a Monstrance for us to adore Him. Some Churches have what we call “Adoration Chapels” and some even have Perpetual Adoration. A person of faith can come any time of day or night to show adoration for Jesus Christ. We can sit and pray right there in front of Jesus Christ. WoW! I love that we can do that! I love my Catholic Faith and I LOVE Jesus Christ! Alleluah!

rr1213:

Catholics also affirm that they do not worship Mary. I’ve read that over and over again in these forums. So, if that’s what you say, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The “benefit of the doubt” huh? This tone really tells me that you do believe that we worship Mary. Oh well, I won’t waste my breath any longer. You know, if you know that we believe she is Queen of Heaven, don’t the English bow down to their Queen?

 

[lak611]

You got it right except for one thing… we do not adore Mary. ADORATION is ONLY for God present to us here in every Tabernacle in the Catholic Churches all over the world. Jesus Christ is exposed in a Monstrance for us to adore Him. Some Churches have what we call “Adoration Chapels” and some even have Perpetual Adoration. A person of faith can come any time of day or night to show adoration for Jesus Christ. We can sit and pray right there in front of Jesus Christ. WoW! I love that we can do that! I love my Catholic Faith and I LOVE Jesus Christ! Alleluah!

The “benefit of the doubt” huh? This tone really tells me that you do believe that we worship Mary. Oh well, I won’t waste my breath any longer. You know, if you know that we believe she is Queen of Heaven, don’t the English bow down to their Queen?

We are having 40 hours devotion in my church this weekend. I just spent an hour adoring and worshipping Jesus Who was up there on the altar! I asked Mary, His mother to pray for me, but I prayed to Him.