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KateKimmer
Guest
I had someone tell me this too. and it is laughable! the bible refers to drunkeness. Guess there
“grape Juice” was not so weak after all!
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“grape Juice” was not so weak after all!
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KateKimmer
Guest
Forgive me, but I have to make a quip here - if the master of ceremonies at the Wedding at Cana in Galilee belonged to a Protestant denomination that used grape juice, he would never have been able to taste the wine our Lord transformed from the water in the six stone jars . . .
It’s a good thing the MC was Jewish!
Alex
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jinc1019
Guest
I don’t buy this becuse Jesus chose bread and wine for a reason…it was more than just symbols he created, it was symbolic of ancient Jewish rituals. I recommend reading Brent Pitre’s “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist”
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jinc1019
Guest
That’s perfectly fine but shouldn’t they be making exceptions available to them and not setting the rule for them? I mean there is only a small minority of alcoholics.
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Jesusismyfriend
Guest
Mainly because so many Protestants believe drinking any alcohol is “a deadly sin” (leads to Hell.) I don’t completely agree with their teachings on that. But those beliefs do exist (I get in trouble with friends because I don’t agree with that.) If you are able to have a glass of wine and not go overboard, is it wrong? Wine can even be healthy for people in moderation.
Drunkeness is sin. But I don’t define one glass of wine as equal to drunkeness.
Drunkeness is sin. But I don’t define one glass of wine as equal to drunkeness.
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Brandon_Rimmer_1
Guest
The argument may be that the mere offering of wine is temptation enough.
As for your other argument, about the Eucharist being more than a symbol, of course you believe this! Otherwise, how would you be Catholic?
I will look for the reference you link. I’m not very interested in emulating historical Christianity. I’m just interested in most authentically walking in the path Jesus established, and in understanding the nature of reality as best as I can through science.
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KathleenGee
Guest
To find out what is the true intent of Scripture, and the practice of faith, worship and reason, you have to back to early Christianity.
Mainline Christianity then and now believes Christ’s resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven as concrete, not symbolic, the same with the gifts of Melchizedek of bread and wine, now divinized into concrete food of the Eucharistic Lord…the Eucharist comprised of the Resurrected and Glorified Lamb of God at the throne of heaven.
You have to go back to those precurors prior in the Old Testament…even back to Genesis itself where one eats of fruit to be divinized…either the forbidden fruit or that fruit of the Tree of Life to the multiplication of flour and oil for the widow and her son because she fed an ancient prophet all that she had, the feeding of manna from heaven, to Christ placed in an animal feeder, to His feeding the multitudes…
To the context He gave at the Last Supper…the Covenant of the Blood, the Memorial as the means for the new gathering of believers…immediately following those who abandoned Him because of the image to cannibalism, to the sacred meal St. Paul refers to…and the commentators of the 2nd century who documented Christians accused of cannibalism.
Such as the greatest event of human history – Christ’s death on the Cross, and then His victory over sin and death to His resurrection and glory in heaven cannot be reduced to mere symbolism.
The Great Heresy of ancient times was not to believe that the bread and wine were truly the Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity of Jesus Christ. If this were not true, this belief would have died out along with those who had abandoned Christ.
All the vague pieces of Sacred Scriptures are finally realized when seeing now referring to the Mass and Eucharist…which is the missing link our separated brethren do not believe.
A little over 500 years ago, all Christians in the universal Church believed in the Eucharist.
Mainline Christianity then and now believes Christ’s resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven as concrete, not symbolic, the same with the gifts of Melchizedek of bread and wine, now divinized into concrete food of the Eucharistic Lord…the Eucharist comprised of the Resurrected and Glorified Lamb of God at the throne of heaven.
You have to go back to those precurors prior in the Old Testament…even back to Genesis itself where one eats of fruit to be divinized…either the forbidden fruit or that fruit of the Tree of Life to the multiplication of flour and oil for the widow and her son because she fed an ancient prophet all that she had, the feeding of manna from heaven, to Christ placed in an animal feeder, to His feeding the multitudes…
To the context He gave at the Last Supper…the Covenant of the Blood, the Memorial as the means for the new gathering of believers…immediately following those who abandoned Him because of the image to cannibalism, to the sacred meal St. Paul refers to…and the commentators of the 2nd century who documented Christians accused of cannibalism.
Such as the greatest event of human history – Christ’s death on the Cross, and then His victory over sin and death to His resurrection and glory in heaven cannot be reduced to mere symbolism.
The Great Heresy of ancient times was not to believe that the bread and wine were truly the Body, Soul, Blood and Divinity of Jesus Christ. If this were not true, this belief would have died out along with those who had abandoned Christ.
All the vague pieces of Sacred Scriptures are finally realized when seeing now referring to the Mass and Eucharist…which is the missing link our separated brethren do not believe.
A little over 500 years ago, all Christians in the universal Church believed in the Eucharist.
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57Bill
Guest
Just because a member choses not to drink alcohol does not mean they are an alcoholic. Isn’t it an option to receive both species at Mass? At protestant services I attend the bread (yes, fresh sourdough) is dipped in the grape juice so both are always consumed.
Here’s a comment not meant to be a critique but more of a contrast…There’s never enough consecrated wine for everyone who wishes to receive both species at many well attended Masses.
Don’t get into a “storage issue”.
I know that an excess of consecrated wine is not possible to store beyond what the priest will consume after everyone has received.
Isn’t it only heresy if grape juice is used instead of wine (of properly fortified alcoholic content:thumbsup in a Catholic Mass?
Here’s a comment not meant to be a critique but more of a contrast…There’s never enough consecrated wine for everyone who wishes to receive both species at many well attended Masses.
Don’t get into a “storage issue”.
I know that an excess of consecrated wine is not possible to store beyond what the priest will consume after everyone has received.Isn’t it only heresy if grape juice is used instead of wine (of properly fortified alcoholic content:thumbsup
in a Catholic Mass?
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fhansen
Guest
I remember an AOG pastor telling us that it was actually grape juice to begin with, that the word used for wine could be translated either way. Anyway, that understanding doesn’t fit very well with the fact that, at Cana, Jesus was asked why the best wine was served last; substituting “grape juice” for “wine” here just doesn’t work in my experience.
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jinc1019
Guest
Very true.I remember an AOG pastor telling us that it was actually grape juice to begin with, that the word used for wine could be translated either way. Anyway, that understanding doesn’t fit very well with the fact that, at Cana, Jesus was asked why the best wine was served last; substituting “grape juice” for “wine” here just doesn’t work in my experience.
I appreciate everyone’s comments and contributions on the issue; it appears that it comes down to a couple of things: 1. Because drinking was discouraged, they moved to grape juice and 2. There seems to be some belief that grape juice may have been similar to the wine Jesus served. I don’t really buy either argument, but I didn’t expect to! Thanks for contributing.
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Nicea325
Guest
If it is merely symbolic,then why not use any liquid? Why not milk or orange juice?
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joshua_b
Guest
I’ve noticed an interesting conundrum with most of the Protestant denominations. They have rejected the ancient Church, and all of the doctrines and practices along with it. Then, without those roots, they in turn try to recapture “authentic” Christianity as would have been practiced by the first century Church. I spoke to this in another thread once where I noticed more than one congregation trying to recapture the practice of “annointing”. Of course, the Catholic Church has practiced sacramental annointing for 2000 years. Communion, or the Lord’s Supper, as they often term it, is another of these.
Since their doctrines and traditions can often interfere with documented ancient Christianity (which would be the Catholic/Orthodox practice and understanding), they will then either perform some serious intellectual gymnastics or reject the theology and doctrine upon which it is based to make their understandings “fit” and thereby “prove” that they are worshipping “exactly as New Testament Christians worshipped”.
So, in context of the Catholic understanding of the Euharist as it has been for 2000 years, they reject Apostolic succession and the priesthood, which negates any possibility of Real Presence anyway, so then it is not Eucharist but rather “the Lord’s Supper”. And even though Jesus would have most surely used wine, their tradition doesn’t allow alcohol, so then it not only has to be justified, but done so in such a way that it conforms with “ancient Christianity”, so therefore wine was really juice, or so weak that it was practically juice, or whatever.
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Rhuarc
Guest
That’s not an excuse, receiving only the body of Christ is sufficient because he is fully present in both species. Although obviously not in heretical churches (protestant for you sensitive ones) present under those circumstances however though they could just receive the bread.Yes, we do. Quite a few of them.
In our church we use grape juice because we have recovering alcoholics on the congregation, and we want them to feel comfortable and able to fully participate. When we celebrate Communion in homegroup, we know everyone’s background, so we sometimes use wine then. Personally, I prefer wine, because it’s closer to what Jesus did, but we consider either valid for the celebration.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Was grape juice used in the Jewish Passover at the time of Christ? No. Has it ever been used to commemorate Passover? No.
The use of grape juice in the “Lord’s Supper” (which originated at Passover) is but another unbiblical, come-lately, man-made Protestant invention of the late 1800s.
Only two of the world’s religions are God-made: Orthodox Judaism and its fulfillment – Catholicism.
Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
The use of grape juice in the “Lord’s Supper” (which originated at Passover) is but another unbiblical, come-lately, man-made Protestant invention of the late 1800s.
Only two of the world’s religions are God-made: Orthodox Judaism and its fulfillment – Catholicism.
Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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Nicea325
Guest
Unfortunately a lot of these “new” churches claim to follow the Bible to the last letter; and yet, they also ignore a lot of verses which contradicts their beliefs.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Reminds me of a Protestant wedding I heard about where the bride and groom were asked their preference for “communion.” Their answer: raisin toast and hot chocolate.
True story or not, it illustrates the point.
When Protestants speak of their own communion as symbolic, they’re absolutely correct! It’s when they (mis)interpret the Bible and try to tell Catholics that the Eucharist is symbolic that my blood boils. That’s not the teaching of the Apostles and consequently not the belief of the first Christians.
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Nicea325
Guest
Yep! Then you have Protestants such as Radical who claim the RP was not taught by the early church. Funny how numerous requests from me to him to provide the evidence by the ECF’s that the RP was heretical has remained as usual…unseen!Reminds me of a Protestant wedding I heard about where the bride and groom were asked their preference for “communion.” Their answer: raisin toast and hot chocolate.
True story or not, it illustrates the point.
When Protestants speak of their own communion as symbolic, they’re absolutely correct! It’s when they (mis)interpret the Bible and try to tell Catholics that the Eucharist is symbolic that my blood boils. That’s not the teaching of the Apostles and consequently not the belief of the first Christians.
Lutherans are no fans of concomitance, but given the choice due to health of receiving just the host, or accepting grape juice, I would receive only the host.Yes, we do. Quite a few of them.
In our church we use grape juice because we have recovering alcoholics on the congregation, and we want them to feel comfortable and able to fully participate. When we celebrate Communion in homegroup, we know everyone’s background, so we sometimes use wine then. Personally, I prefer wine, because it’s closer to what Jesus did, but we consider either valid for the celebration.
Christ instituted the sacrament using wine, not grape juice. He also instututed the sacrament under both the bread and the wine - to eat and drink.
Jon
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
And not Orthodox Christianity? You would be even more ecstatic to learn about the Christian East and its venerable spirituality!
Alex
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joshua_b
Guest
I think that was my point Nicea. There are many seeking out, and/or claiming to practice “New Testament Christianity”, which of course they will say is based solely on what is in the bible. Their traditions will not allow them to follow this quest to its ultimate conclusion however, because they find themselves very quickly in an uncomfortably close proximity to sacramental theology and Catholic doctrine. So, they perform all kinds of eisegetical and intellectual gymnastics to be able to declare their rendition as correct, and usually what they come up with ends up being pseudo-Catholic in form and concept.
I thought the poster who commented on the Protestant congregation soaking bread in grape juice particularly interesting, because I believe that in eastern Churches, that is the norm by which the Eucharist is celebrated, and has been since antiquity. In that sense, they are probably “closer” to ancient Christianity than the Roman Catholic church, and many of these congregations will use that as their argument that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong because in their mind, this is how the original Christians did it. They either ignore, or try to rationalize away, the substitution of juice for wine, the use of leavened bread, and that whole “Real Presence” thing.
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